Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

To be fair the players had the balls to stand up and give them the heave ho,Now they should have the balls to take the truth as it has come out.From reading the article it seems Aidan & Seamie carry an awful lot of clout within the group and pushed for the little brother to be on the panel and their clubmate Hennelly.

Interesting how the vote ended up 27-7 with so many new faces they brought in that year

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

Their side of the story? It's clear that the players spared them plenty of embarrassment by not listing their shortcomings to the public. These two have left nothing to spare, went for the throats of the players. It smacks of bitterness tbh. It's laughable that they are claiming this was done for Mayo GAA's best interests, clearly not.

You could be right maybe it's time the players but there're side of the story as th why it was so bad under homes/ con. We have all heard stories of what went on the main one the armature set up they brought to the team unlike Horan and his back room team

PressRun wrote: »

The Jim Gavins and Eamonn Fiztmaurices of the world also wouldn't carry on the way Holmes and Connelly did throughout their management. 5,000 words in that article and not one word about their own failings. All this talk about passing the buck, but that's exactly what they do in that article themselves. No mention of the bullying tactics and outdated training methods, nothing about having no room on the team bus for players because Pat and Noel wanted to bring hangers on, nothing about them bringing their friends and children of friends into the dressing room before big matches, nothing about the refusal to offer support to certain players facing problems within the game. If a Dublin player went to Jim Gavin about a game-related issue, do you think he'd just point blank refuse and turn his back on them? No way. He'd defend them to the hilt, as a good manager would.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg without even getting into how they were appointed to the position and other carry on behind the scenes. Nothing was ever publicly said about them, their appointment or what went on under their management, which could have been embarrassing for both of them and the county board. I've very little sympathy for either of them or members of the county board who enabled all of this. They want to have the last word on the matter without admitting any blame themselves and the county board care not a jot about the fallout of underhandedly appointing people to positions they're not up to. And then to say that they're doing all this for the good of Mayo football? Are they hell.

Do I think there are problems within the team? Yes. But Holmes and Connelly are no victims and the notion that it's all on the players and nothing to do with them is manifestly untrue. The team were incredibly united and had a very tight bond under James Horan. While he wasn't perfect, he brought them on immensely. Do people really think that problems just emerged out of nowhere for no reason other than "egos"? The cracks noticeably emerged under Holmes and Connelly and there are reasons for that. Those cracks found their roots in carry on from the county board, who were also at the heart of James Horan's decision to leave.

I'm glad Holmes and Connelly are gone. I only wish they'd brought half the county board with them. If Mayo ever win an All-Ireland, it'll be in spite of those on the county board, not because of them.

Looking in from outside.... The sooner Aidan o Shea is left at home the better for Mayo football.... He just loves the media too much.. Playing basketball now to get the photo in the paper...

Watching all Ireland this yr... For me it was dublins day when John small took down cillian connor.. Cillian looked to linesman.. No action... He punched the ground like a pure child when nothing was done.... The o se's wouldn't have done that when the played with Kerry... Either would galvin.... Those boys looked after those things themselves.... There were what you call MEN.... I'm heading to a north Kerry football final shortly.... The ref will throw in the ball and blow the whistle for half time and full time.... Each player will be expected to look after themselves while the game is on..... And if you can't you shouldn't be there..... Mayo lads would want to take a good look at themselves.... And I couldn't give a ****e if they never won a match again...... No ones fault only there own they ain't winning the big prize....

ProudDUB wrote: »

Some of the reasons for the player dissatisfaction seem ridiculously petty. The switch in medical personnel and physios I get....but Palm Sunday Mass running late, or the bus going via Donegal Town on the way to a league match Derry, seriously ?

Funny that those are the "issues" they take care to mention in the article and not the myriad of other problems going on.

awaywithyou wrote:

He punched the ground like a pure child when nothing was done.... The o se's wouldn't have done that when the played with Kerry... Either would galvin.... Those boys looked after those things themselves.... There were what you call MEN....

This the same Galvin for Kerry that knocked a notebook from a referees hand when a decision didn't go his way?

PressRun wrote: »

The Jim Gavins and Eamonn Fiztmaurices of the world also wouldn't carry on the way Holmes and Connelly did throughout their management. 5,000 words in that article and not one word about their own failings. All this talk about passing the buck, but that's exactly what they do in that article themselves. No mention of the bullying tactics and outdated training methods, nothing about having no room on the team bus for players because Pat and Noel wanted to bring hangers on, nothing about them bringing their friends and children of friends into the dressing room before big matches, nothing about the refusal to offer support to certain players facing problems within the game. If a Dublin player went to Jim Gavin about a game-related issue, do you think he'd just point blank refuse and turn his back on them? No way. He'd defend them to the hilt, as a good manager would.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg without even getting into how they were appointed to the position and other carry on behind the scenes. Nothing was ever publicly said about them, their appointment or what went on under their management, which could have been embarrassing for both of them and the county board. I've very little sympathy for either of them or members of the county board who enabled all of this. They want to have the last word on the matter without admitting any blame themselves and the county board care not a jot about the fallout of underhandedly appointing people to positions they're not up to. And then to say that they're doing all this for the good of Mayo football? Are they hell.

Do I think there are problems within the team? Yes. But Holmes and Connelly are no victims and the notion that it's all on the players and nothing to do with them is manifestly untrue. The team were incredibly united and had a very tight bond under James Horan. While he wasn't perfect, he brought them on immensely. Do people really think that problems just emerged out of nowhere for no reason other than "egos"? The cracks noticeably emerged under Holmes and Connelly and there are reasons for that. Those cracks found their roots in carry on from the county board, who were also at the heart of James Horan's decision to leave.

I'm glad Holmes and Connelly are gone. I only wish they'd brought half the county board with them. If Mayo ever win an All-Ireland, it'll be in spite of those on the county board, not because of them.

I am not privy to the core of the complaints the players had with the management although I had heard some of the issues what you have mentioned through the grapevine.It may well be a valid point that the players were vague re their complaints in order wish to spare Noel Connelly and Pat Holmes any blushes by not making the crux of their issues public.I had my doubts re the management team and ultimately like the majority of supporters rowed in behind the players who give their lives to the jersey.

Admittedly they were not exactly forthcoming in discussing their own frailties but a central theme of the article seemed to be an unacceptable undermining of the management.Jim Gavin,Eamonn Fitzmaurice and Jim McGuinness in all probability would never be in a position where they'd have to be composing a 5,000 word piece.Jim McGuinness ruthlessly dropped one of Donegal's finest talents Kevin Cassidy from the panel after his book revealed too many in house secrets.The same individual was consigned to oblivion minus an All Ireland medal many of his comrades later won in 2012.There can be only one manager.

James Horan was an excellent manager yet ultimately failed.

The appointment process around Noel Connelly and Pat Holmes stank to high heaven and the treatment of Kevin McStay and Liam McHale was appalling.The county board have had many failing down through the years and like many county boards the officials like to exert power over those of most importance,the players.However you'll hear similar complaints re county boards up and down the country...Frank Murphy and the Cork county board.It is unfair to single out same as the vast majority of these individuals only want what's best for Mayo GAA.I would happily contend that no expense has been spared since the start of James Horan regime and indeed long before in Mayo teams quest to win the All Ireland.

The management may well not have been the right fit but as many have stated in the end the team simply have not been good enough to claim the big prize/I believe the prize will elude them until any notions of player power are consigned to the past and we find ourselves a couple of top quality forwards.A bit of introspection by the players and the wider Mayo GAA support is to be welcomed.

seligehgit wrote: »

It is unfair to single out same as the vast majority of these individuals only want what's best for Mayo GAA.

I would seriously question that.

And Jim Gavin or Eamonn Fitzmaurice would never be in a position to compose a 5,000 word piece because they would sort out their problems in house. Every team has egos, All-Ireland title or not, and every county has clubs and individuals that exert more influence than others. The only difference seems to be that some figures within Mayo GAA seem to think that the best way to resolve these issues is through the media. Jim McGuinness kicked someone off the panel for speaking about what was going on behind the scenes. Holmes and Connelly have done exactly the same and have actually given details of conversations that happened in private. That is well below the belt and a breach of dressing room code. The players have never gone public about their grievances with Holmes and Connelly and have spared them plenty of embarrassment in doing so, imo. If Holmes and Connelly want to really get into the nitty gritty of what happened during their time in charge, I would more than welcome it. But I highly doubt they want any situation to arise where they can't control the narrative.

And I don't believe for a second that they don't know why they were ousted. They know exactly why.

There's a curse on Mayo football all right - but you can't blame the Church for this one




From Eamonn Sweeney on the independent.

Martin Breheny's interview in the Irish Independent with Pat Holmes and Noel Connelly is probably the Irish sports scoop of the year. It's certainly one of the most fascinating and revealing insights into the inner workings of a GAA team you're likely to read.

While it might be pushing it a bit to describe the interview as Shakespearean there's no denying that it contains copious elements of history, comedy and tragedy. First and foremost, it's the definitive history of the events which led to the Mayo players demanding that Holmes and Connelly be sacked at the end of the 2015 GAA season.

Their account makes it obvious that certain players had problems with the management from the get-go and were keen to seek confrontation at every opportunity. On this reading the player revolt was merely the culmination of something which had been brewing from the very beginning.

Why? Holmes and Connelly believe it arises from an unwillingness on the part of the players to take responsibility for their part in the team's persistent failure in big matches. They note that when, after taking over, they asked senior players why they felt Mayo had come up short in recent seasons. The players, "told us match-ups were wrong, opposition analysis was poor, there was a lack of adaptability and they had no defensive plan. They also highlighted some errors for goals and also occasions when they had turned over the ball too easily."

Holmes and Connelly observe that this meant the players were largely blaming "factors outside their control" for their underachievement. In fact, they were implicitly blaming the management of James Horan, something which seems to give the lie to the argument that player objections to the new duo were founded on a perception that there had been a drop-off in standards since Horan's time.


On one level this is an unlovely saga. The player letter sent to the Mayo County Board is an unpleasant mixture of self-praise - "We the players have set extremely high standards in the context of our individual and collective approach . . . The experience and knowledge gained by the players . . . will be an invaluable asset to the County Board teams" - and veiled threat: "We wish to avoid making the resolution of these issues any more public or rancorous than it needs to be and we encourage the County Board to try and deal with this matter in private and not in the public arena." This request that the stab in the back be carried out in the dark rather than the daylight is not much of a tribute to the characters of the people who signed the letter.

Yet the story is not without its comic elements. Only the most stony of heart could suppress a giggle at the pettiness of some of the complaints levelled against Connelly and Holmes by the players during their reign. The player who complained because the bus had gone through a small town in Donegal rather than round it on the way to a game in Derry, the complaints about being 15 minutes later than usual to the dressing room because of a Mass, Aidan O'Shea complaining because he wasn't allowed to appear in a reality TV show. They're funny in the way that prima donna complaints always are.

And the element of tragedy? Well, Holmes and Connelly reveal that Seamus O'Shea demanded that his clubmate Rob Hennelly be picked in goal ahead of David Clarke because O'Shea preferred his kick-outs. They quite rightly told O'Shea that his job was to play and theirs was to manage.

A year later and Hennelly was picked ahead of Clarke for the All-Ireland final replay, a decision which struck most people as mysterious but which was justified on the grounds that the Breaffy man had a better kick-out. The decision by new manager Stephen Rochford turned out be the one which cost Mayo the All-Ireland. We have no way of knowing whether O'Shea repeated his preference for Hennelly to the new manager or whether it would have swayed Rochford if he had done. Yet one solution to the biggest mystery of the Mayo football year certainly seems to suggest itself.

It would be a bitter irony that players who had blamed defeats on their previous management teams ended up being deprived of the ultimate honour because of a terrible miscalculation perpetrated by the manager they'd chosen themselves.

Another great Mayo mystery has been the consistent underperformance of Aidan O'Shea in big games. Despite a massive reputation and undoubted talent he has been utterly peripheral in four All-Ireland finals. A possible solution to that mystery also seems to be vouchsafed by the Holmes-Connelly revelations.

Whether giving out because he wasn't let train with Sunderland or spearheading a complaint about the exclusion of a player from the panel of 26, O'Shea does seem overly keen on the kind of distractions which can prevent a player from fulfilling his potential. The former managers' comment about the number of Twitter followers mattering less than the number of All-Ireland medals may not be expressly aimed at the Breaffy player but people will draw their own conclusions.

Holmes and Connelly believe that the egocentricity of certain players is preventing Mayo from taking the final step towards All-Ireland glory. It's certainly true that Mayo 2016 were strikingly similar to Mayo 2015 and 2014. They did make the All-Ireland final but this was largely because Tipperary were their semi-final opponents. Against Dublin in the decider their performances were the same as they had been in the 2015 and 2014 semis against Kerry and the Dubs, drawing the first game and squandering a winning position in the second. For the third time in five years they lost an All-Ireland final. Whoever is in charge you get roughly the same level of performance from the Mayo players.

This tends to be a very good level of performance. That Mayo team is as gutsy and hard-working as any team in Irish sport. They can never be faulted for their commitment. Yet something is missing. And perhaps that something is an inability to fully face up to the pain of defeat.

Last year's coup could be seen as something which prevented them from having to spend a bitter winter answering the hard questions from their supporters. You saw the same thing at work on an individual level this year when, with the final barely over, Rob Hennelly was tweeting about his indomitable spirit and determination to bounce back when he might have spent more time thinking about the mistake which had cost his team the All-Ireland title they fervently desire. Aidan O'Shea and Lee Keegan were also quick to take to Twitter in a way which would have been unthinkable from Kerry or Kilkenny players.

Darragh ó Sé has written very well on the painful times Kerry players go through when they underperform and the recriminations they have to cope with. It sounds unpleasant yet perhaps it's something which is necessary if teams are to drive themselves on to success. Mayo's players seem somehow unwilling to undergo the requisite process of painful personal inventory. Pat Holmes and Noel Connelly's revelations, in an honest interview with an excellent journalist, reveal the extent to which for the Mayo players the buck always stops with someone else.

Invoking the 'they're only amateurs' excuse won't wash. Holmes and Connelly were amateurs too but the players had few qualms about publicly humiliating them. They deserved to have their say, not least because when the inevitable self-justifying autobiography is published by a Mayo player, some more accusations will no doubt be rolled out. Tom Cunniffe's recent public contrition about the treatment of the two men may well be genuine but it does smack a bit of wanting things both ways. Self-exculpating statements from the players are no doubt in the pipeline. They may even in their heart of hearts welcome the controversy as another distraction from the one fact about Mayo football which really matters. That fact is that they are fine footballers but they are also failures.

Not by the standards of almost every other football team in the country but by the "extremely high standards", which, in their letter of no confidence in Connelly and Holmes, the players said they set for themselves. Deep down they know that.

There's a curse on Mayo football all right. But you can't blame the Church for this one

Cunniffe voted to oust them in the first instance and he now has a change of mind. Stirring this and smugly proclaiming that he won't be donning a Mayo jersey again.

Where was his conscience and sense of balance/fairness at the vote?

Something not right with that either.