Why are our judges so soft?

omahaid · 03-06-2016 04:11PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Why is it when soft sentences are handed down you can be almost certain that it is Judge Martin Nolan on the case? The guy has zero appreciation for violence, rape and child porn. But mislabel apples for garlic and he throws you in prison for 6 years, this is even after you've paid back every cent to the taxman.

Some of Martin Nolan's judgements
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/11/18/who-is-judge-nolan-jailing/

That's just the tip of the iceberg with Nolan. iirc he was also the judge who allowed a very wealthy aviation businessman pay a woman €75k for her rape in exchange for a custodial sentence.

Jeez, that's only 2012...

Sand · 03-06-2016 07:23PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Where do people get this nonsense?

Does anyone actually think that your average Judge in the District or Circuit Court is scanning the UN for jobs?

I know a few Judges and they'd get a good laugh out of this. How do people actually think up this stuff?

He said the Supreme Court judges would be scanning for international positions, and that the average judge in the district or circuit courts had to take their lead from the Supreme Court.

I don't know if that's true either, but he didn't claim what you think he did.

Again, the huge confusion around the law and sentencing.

There's no confusion - if he loses his temper again and kills that woman next time, the suspended sentence will activate.

Its just people consider that insufficient for the crime committed.

People moan about the failure to hand down harsh sentences, and when it comes to white collar crime in particular we often hear the "why can we be more like the USA, with crooks being led out of offices in handcuffs" and so on.

Then some businessman who committed a massive fraud involving significant planning and execution gets a big sentence and everyone was wringing their hands about the unfairness of it all to the poor ol' apple importer.

Nobody has an issue with white collar crime being given an appropriate sentence (though that sentence was later found to be incorrect). People highlight the arbitrary nature of a judge repeatedly giving light, lenient sentences for violent and sexual crimes with next to no mitigating circumstances whilst suddenly going Dirty Harry on a non-violent white collar crime where the damage to the Revenue had already been made good.

People view violent/sexual crimes as being at least as serious as white collar crimes, and often far more serious. No one I think lives in fear of the garlic VAT man fiddling his tax returns again, however that woman certainly is afraid of her attacker, and the court has turned him loose on the streets and dismissed her injuries and the violence against her as being trivial, which is salt in the wound.

Maybe the legal industry cant see the problem, but justice needs to be done and be seen to be done. And the Irish courts do not deliver justice to the victims of violent crimes. If you are attacked in Ireland, and survive, you might as just go to the hospital and forget about it - its a waste of time going to the courts to get justice. Only people who benefit from that are the lawyers and judges claiming their fees.

As for that Judge, someone called him the worst judge in Ireland - given that is just his 2012 cases I'd really hate to think there is a worse judge out there.

Little CuChulainn · 03-06-2016 07:52PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Where do people get this nonsense?

Does anyone actually think that your average Judge in the District or Circuit Court is scanning the UN for jobs?

I know a few Judges and they'd get a good laugh out of this. How do people actually think up this stuff?

Because people are struggling to find reason in the ridiculous, and that is the word that describes many judgements we hear about these days.

FalconGirl · 03-06-2016 09:14PM

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

More money to be made from the gravy train. They want him to get 300 convictions first to get every penny they can in legal aid money for their pals in the industry.

I'm really starting to believe that at this point. Are judges performances not reviewed for consistency?

03-06-2016 09:27PM

FalconGirl wrote: »

I'm really starting to believe that at this point. Are judges performances not reviewed for consistency?

No.

Ten million years ago some snob named Montesquieu (Charles-Louis de Secondat, Baron de La Brède et de Montesquieu, to give him his full title) misunderstood the English legal system, and concluded that judges should never be accountable to the durty public.

The Brits were so flattered upon being complimented by a Frenchman in the middle of the 7 Years War that they endorsed and adapted his views wholeheartedly.

France, the country of Montesquieu's birth, was altogether more skeptical, and remain so to this day, employing a flexible attitude to judicial immunity.

Today in Britain and Ireland, judicial independence remains an untouchable.

If you try to explain that judges are interviewed, and trained, and accountable in other European countries, nobody will listen. They insist that the sky will fall in if we dare to deviate from a 250-year-old, outdated notion.

Eugene Norman · 03-06-2016 09:36PM

HiJacques wrote: »

I love that one. It's a bit like the family being evicted from their second, or first they had a few anyway, home in Dalkey and having to commute from London to protest the injustice of it.

Its not really though.

Eugene Norman · 03-06-2016 09:38PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

No.

Ten million years ago some snob named Montesquieu (Charles-Louis de Secondat, Baron de La Brède et de Montesquieu, to give him his full title) misunderstood the English legal system, and concluded that judges should never be accountable to the durty public.

The Brits were so flattered upon being complimented by a Frenchman in the middle of the 7 Years War that they endorsed and adapted his views wholeheartedly.

France, the country of Montesquieu's birth, was altogether more skeptical, and remain so to this day, employing a flexible attitude to judicial immunity.

Today in Britain and Ireland, judicial independence remains an untouchable.

If you try to explain that judges are interviewed, and trained, and accountable in other European countries, nobody will listen. They insist that the sky will fall in if we dare to deviate from a 250-year-old, outdated notion.

And in America too, for all its faults, judges are elected.

newbbieb · 03-06-2016 09:40PM

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0603/793145-abuse-trial/

Am i the only one shocked to see that guy in the above story only get 13 years he will be out in 10 or less,that is insanity that he will be walking the streets in 10 years or less and the Judge then decided to do him another favour and protect his identity even though his victims waived anonymity so he could be named.

The least they deserved was the respect from the Judge to name him as they wanted.

03-06-2016 09:49PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

France, the country of Montesquieu's birth, was altogether more skeptical, and remain so to this day, employing a flexible attitude to judicial immunity.

Today in Britain and Ireland, judicial independence remains an untouchable.

If you try to explain that judges are interviewed, and trained, and accountable in other European countries, nobody will listen. They insist that the sky will fall in if we dare to deviate from a 250-year-old, outdated notion.

Um, but they have a different legal system entirely.

I wouldn't say it's demonstrably better at all. One remembers the allegations about the connections between political and the legal system in Belgium that brought tens of thousands out in the streets during the Dutroux mess, the utter lack of accountability in Italy, France and so on.

To say our legal system is "outdated" because it is different from other European countries is as inane and facile as saying soccer is outdated because you can't handle the ball, unlike rugby.

04-06-2016 03:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Um, but they have a different legal system entirely.

So?

That's irrelevant to the point that judges ought to be accountable.

Whether under civil-law systems, or common-law systems, judges should be trained for their roles and be accountable. Their decisions should be consistent, and subject to scrutiny by an independent council, such as happens in other countries

Even the Chief Justice of Ireland has said that Ireland's reputation is damaged by the absence of proper disciplining and training of judges.

I have no doubt there are many fine judges in Ireland, but there is plenty of unrestrained arrogance and unbridled stupidity on the bench, too, and it's about time some of them get a kick in the backside, frankly.

Some of them are as wild as wet cats. I don't know how Sean MacBride ever came to office, for example, although I believe he's now retired.

Wanderer2010 · 04-06-2016 04:25PM

Deleted User wrote: »

No they're not.

The Judge in this thread was a Garda. He played minor football for Wexford. That's hardly some sailing club D4 background.

Most of them are completely out of touch with the normal working or middle class lifestyle though and have zero exposure to the effects of crime themselves hence they operate on a different planet. Mad in a small country of just a few million but there you go.

LightsStillOn · 07-06-2016 08:07PM

Have to give this another bump. 6 years for raping two kids, one of which had Down syndrome. 6 years. Is there a legal reason why these judges are giving out these sentences? Because I really can't get my head around it

http://www.thejournal.ie/sentenced-rape-2810365-Jun2016/

Icemancometh · 17-12-2016 02:01AM

Saw this story and it reminded me of this thread from a while back. It seems the judge agrees with my interpretation below, your first assault is a freebie. Useful to know for future reference.

Icemancometh wrote: »

What's the practical effect of a suspended sentence in most cases though? There seems to be a well established precedent in Irish law now that your first assault is basically a freebie. Essentially, if you have a clean record, you can attack somebody, brutally injure them and cause them permanent suffering, but as long as you don't kill them and don't do it again, you won't see the inside of a cell.

Skommando · 17-12-2016 02:10AM

Can anyone explain why people with 100 plus convictions for everything from assault, to theft, are walking around the streets, and have done little or no prison time ?

The 'justice' and prison system in Ireland is not a deterrent to these people, it's an incentive.

All we ever here about is criminals rights, and never their responsibilities.

How about some rights for the innocent victims of crime ?

jackofalltrades · 17-12-2016 03:41AM

Skommando wrote: »

Can anyone explain why people with 100 plus convictions for everything from assault, to theft, are walking around the streets, and have done little or no prison time?

Middle class guilt.
Judges not having to live anywhere near the people who appear in their courts.
Judges that aren't exposed to high levels of crime.
Being able to afford a decent monitored security system.
International league tables that discourage sending people to jail.

entropi · 17-12-2016 04:03AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

So?

That's irrelevant to the point that judges ought to be accountable.

Whether under civil-law systems, or common-law systems, judges should be trained for their roles and be accountable. Their decisions should be consistent, and subject to scrutiny by an independent council, such as happens in other countries

Even the Chief Justice of Ireland has said that Ireland's reputation is damaged by the absence of proper disciplining and training of judges.

I have no doubt there are many fine judges in Ireland, but there is plenty of unrestrained arrogance and unbridled stupidity on the bench, too, and it's about time some of them get a kick in the backside, frankly.

Some of them are as wild as wet cats. I don't know how Sean MacBride ever came to office, for example, although I believe he's now retired.

Because there's not exactly enough prison places to hold all of these cunts? Maybe?

DEFTLEFTHAND · 17-12-2016 04:37AM

Precedent, the Common Law.

Judges sentence on precedent.

I think the Napoleonic Code, taking each case on its own merits (Civil Code) is a better version. It's something I would have implemented to Ireland during the break off period from Britain.

17-12-2016 12:34PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Precedent, the Common Law.

Judges sentence on precedent.

No, they get sentencing guidelines.. These assume that the max sentence set out in the legislation is for the absolutely worst worst possible case...
and then they apply mitigating factors

These can comprise, among other things, the criminal saying that;

they are sorry
they wont do it again
they were drunk or on drugs
they were abused as a child
they had a tough life...

and pleading guilty, even when caught red handed...

years knocked off for each item

17-12-2016 04:31PM

Yet another case reported today.

Two scumbags with 60 convictions between them burgle a mans isolated house, causing him to die from heart attack, and get 16 months actual jail time....

I recall somebody in the Dept of Justice criticised judges soft sentencing on burglary about two years ago and was forced into a climbdown by the judges. Well he was right!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/family-of-bachelor-who-died-while-burglars-ransacked-his-home-hit-out-at-sentences-768713.html?ref=yfp

Skommando · 17-12-2016 06:43PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yet another case reported today.

Two scumbags with 60 convictions between them burgle a mans isolated house, causing him to die from heart attack, and get 16 months actual jail time....

I recall somebody in the Dept of Justice criticised judges soft sentencing on burglary about two years ago and was forced into a climbdown by the judges. Well he was right!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/family-of-bachelor-who-died-while-burglars-ransacked-his-home-hit-out-at-sentences-768713.html?ref=yfp

there is something very badly wrong with this country

Free Falling · 17-12-2016 07:15PM

How can there be justification for anything other than a life sentence, and life meaning life, for a pedo who rapes a kid?

Skommando · 17-12-2016 07:16PM

Free Falling wrote: »

How can there be justification for anything other than a life sentence, and life meaning life, for a pedo who rapes a kid?

Irish judges seem to love pedo's, rapists, murderers, thugs and thieves for some reason. I can't help thinking they must be very useful to the establishment in some ways.

Ted111 · 17-12-2016 07:21PM

Skommando wrote: »

Irish judges seem to love pedo's, rapists, murderers, thugs and thieves for some reason. I can't help thinking they must be very useful to the establishment in some ways.

Only if the murderers or rapists are members of the stone cutters.

Free Falling · 17-12-2016 07:30PM

Skommando wrote: »

Irish judges seem to love pedo's, rapists, murderers, thugs and thieves for some reason. I can't help thinking they must be very useful to the establishment in some ways.

It's you make wonder why many of them hand out such light sentences to sex offenders.

vicwatson · 17-12-2016 07:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yet another case reported today.

Two scumbags with 60 convictions between them burgle a mans isolated house, causing him to die from heart attack, and get 16 months actual jail time....

I recall somebody in the Dept of Justice criticised judges soft sentencing on burglary about two years ago and was forced into a climbdown by the judges. Well he was right!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/family-of-bachelor-who-died-while-burglars-ransacked-his-home-hit-out-at-sentences-768713.html?ref=yfp

178 previous convictions anyone? 4 month term suspended for 12 months anyone?

http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/news/courts/178th-conviction-for-man-who-stole-from-sports-shop-35006969.html

Is 179 convictions a record?

Oh and ps he broke the bond, surprise surprise and has recently been finally been sent to jail for 1 year, 2 x 6 month consecutive sentences. Yes, imagine, a judge finally gave a CONSECUTIVE Sentence. Wonders will never cease.

Clarebelly · 17-12-2016 07:40PM

vicwatson wrote: »

178 previous convictions anyone? 4 month term suspended for 12 months anyone?

http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/news/courts/178th-conviction-for-man-who-stole-from-sports-shop-35006969.html

Is 179 convictions a record?

Oh and ps he broke the bond, surprise surprise and has recently been finally been sent to jail for 1 year, 2 x 6 month consecutive sentences. Yes, imagine, a judge finally gave a CONSECUTIVE Sentence. Wonders will never cease.

"A man was headed for his 178th conviction when he removed a pair of grey leggings from Lifestyle Sports on August 19 without paying. The culprit was identified using CCTV as Patrick Connors (34) of 60 Melrose Court, George's Street, Wexford."

Is that yer man from Love/Hate?

vicwatson · 17-12-2016 07:42PM

No, he is Paddy Connors from the Rosslare Road in Wexford. A complete toerag by all accounts.

Can anyone beat 179 convictions I wonder ?

osarusan · 17-12-2016 08:05PM

vicwatson wrote: »

Can anyone beat 179 convictions I wonder ?

Eamon Edward John Lynch.

472 and counting, before reaching 40 years old.

kupus · 17-12-2016 08:32PM

Skommando wrote: »

Irish judges seem to love pedo's, rapists, murderers, thugs and thieves for some reason. I can't help thinking they must be very useful to the establishment in some ways.

TIN FOIL HAT ON TIME

Its almost believable the the pedos gangsters and criminals have something on the judges at this stage. Or maybe they are scared sh1tless of them?

TIN FOIL HAT OFF TIME

Wasn't there a judge that was found with child material and they had to let him go because of "TECHNICALITAMUTIES" or something along those lines.

17-12-2016 08:38PM

Once somebody has 10 convictions, then each further sentence should be longer jail time than the previous, because they are then in the habitual criminal class and we should forget talk about 'rehabilitation'. It should be physically impossible for somebody to accumulate 30 convictions....

And being a drunk out of your mind or high on drugs when committing the crime should gather an extra sentence, not mitigation as at present.

Why are our judges so soft?

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