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US justice system in Ireland

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  • 16-12-2016 4:53pm
    #1
    Johnboner
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 331 ✭✭


    I have seen a lot of people here in after hours admiring United States justice system where burglars get 40 years and murderers get the death penalty. Would you like to see this in Ireland? Studies show that Norway which has low punishment also has low recidivism rate because they focus on rehabilitation not punishment. However in the USA it is the opposite, 1/3 of the population goes to prison at least once and it has the highest prison population in the world. USA is also known for prisons for profit. I am just trying to see as to why would anyone in Ireland would want this system.


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    #2
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,457 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    While I agree with the death penalty for murder I wouldn't like to see the US justice system bought in where people are locked away for years for minor offences.

    Saying that I would like to see the Irish justice system get toughnon persistent offenders, sick of seeing scrotes in court with 70/80/90 previous convictions getting yet another slap on the wrist.


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    #3
    MagicIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 6,902 ✭✭✭MagicIRL


    I don't believe the death penalty should ever be enacted.

    Instead, I believe people who currently warrant such a sentence should be incarcerated and forced in to state labour until the end of their days.

    There wouldn't be a pothole unfilled nor a wall left defaced.


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    #4
    Johnboner
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 331 ✭✭Johnboner


    MagicIRL wrote: »
    I don't believe the death penalty should ever be enacted.

    Instead, I believe people who currently warrant such a sentence should be incarcerated and forced in to state labour until the end of their days.

    There wouldn't be a pothole unfilled nor a wall left defaced.

    Doubt they would be very motivated to work if they know they won't get anything anyway. Maybe would work better if you offered them money or reduced sentence.


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    #5
    Johnboner
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 331 ✭✭Johnboner


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    While I agree with the death penalty for murder I wouldn't like to see the US justice system bought in where people are locked away for years for minor offences.

    Saying that I would like to see the Irish justice system get toughnon persistent offenders, sick of seeing scrotes in court with 70/80/90 previous convictions getting yet another slap on the wrist.


    It's impossible to have death penalty while being in the EU as it is mandatory to have the death penalty abolished for all members of the EU.


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    #6
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    We don't do justice in this country ,we seem to have mandatory suspended sentences rather than actual punishment for serious crimes ,

    3 strikes should be brought in for serious crimes not little petty stuff but actual serious offences people are more interested in sob stories and making excuses for scum here than punishment
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #7
    Boom_Bap
    Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,730 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    The US Justice system has just become a profitable industry now, the more people in the clink, the more profit can be made.
    I would not like to see that here.


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    #8
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    I wouldn't be opposed to the death penalty in really extreme cases where there's no chance of rehabilitation and there's no way the person can ever be released into the general public.

    For the vast majority of crimes, even murder, rehabilitation and hard labour. We should be rebuilding the criminals, almost run the prison like a military training camp. They need to leave jail with an ability to do work.

    At the moment our "justice system" doesn't do justice, it doesn't protect the people, if anything it's making better criminals.


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    #9
    Varik
    Registered Users Posts: 12,514 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    Johnboner wrote: »
    Doubt they would be very motivated to work if they know they won't get anything anyway. Maybe would work better if you offered them money or reduced sentence.

    Charge them for food ect, either they pay for it or work for it.


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    #10
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    Is there any proper jobs scheme in place for people once they leave prison?

    It doesn't matter how many courses and work programmes they do in prison if nobody is willing to take the chance of employing them once they're released.


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    #11
    Johnboner
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 331 ✭✭Johnboner


    Varik wrote: »
    Charge them for food ect, either they pay for it or work for it.


    Doing these things would get us out of favor with the EU which would mean no more funding anything or just straight out throw us out for human rights abuses.


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    #12
    Johnboner
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 331 ✭✭Johnboner


    ScumLord wrote: »
    I wouldn't be opposed to the death penalty in really extreme cases where there's no chance of rehabilitation and there's no way the person can ever be released into the general public.

    For the vast majority of crimes, even murder, rehabilitation and hard labour. We should be rebuilding the criminals, almost run the prison like a military training camp. They need to leave jail with an ability to do work.

    At the moment our "justice system" doesn't do justice, it doesn't protect the people, if anything it's making better criminals.


    Why not just keep them in prison forever then? It has been proven that it is more expensive to execute someone than to keep them in prison.


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    #13
    Johnboner
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 331 ✭✭Johnboner


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    Is there any proper jobs scheme in place for people once they leave prison?

    It doesn't matter how many courses and work programmes they do in prison if nobody is willing to take the chance of employing them once they're released.

    This is the reason people in the US reoffend because they can't get any jobs or any support whatsoever after leaving prison. As a result they go back to crime as they don't have much choice.


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    #14
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Johnboner wrote: »
    Why not just keep them in prison forever then? It has been proven that it is more expensive to execute someone than to keep them in prison.
    I'm talking about serious scumbags, serial killers type stuff, which generally doesn't happen in Ireland. Any violent criminals should be studied as a way of preventing them for occurring in the future.


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    #15
    Varik
    Registered Users Posts: 12,514 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    Johnboner wrote: »
    Doing these things would get us out of favor with the EU which would mean no more funding anything or just straight out throw us out for human rights abuses.

    Sure it would.

    Pretty safe bet the EU isn't kicking anyone out anytime soon.


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    #16
    Johnboner
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 331 ✭✭Johnboner


    Varik wrote: »
    Sure it would.

    Pretty safe bet the EU isn't kicking anyone out anytime soon.


    European Union definitely wouldn't tolerate human rights abuses, not a chance. They keep preaching about their human rights and no death penalty, so if one of their member states starts violating human rights then the result is obvious.


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    #17
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    I can't agree with killing people to show that killing people is wrong.
    There's always the chance that you've killed an innocent person and then how are we any different?


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    #18
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    If we had the US justice system, then a lot of black people would be in jail right now ...


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    #19
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,464 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    I would like to see something in between. I wouldn't want to see someone for three minor offences to go to jail for ten years. I don't think they do that in the US either. But equally I find it laughable that people with double digit figures of serious criminal convictions continue to get short and suspended sentences.

    The state has an obligation to protect her people. It's one of the fundamentals in the deal between people and state, the definition of state even. We mustn't lose sight of that.


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    #20
    Earthhorse
    Registered Users Posts: 14,714 ✭✭✭✭Earthhorse


    I'm against the death penalty because no justice system is without flaws and people should have the right to appeal. Most States in the US don't have the death penalty anyway.

    I'm against most judges coming from a prosecutorial background, which is how it is in the Staes I believe but also against the reverse in the Irish justice system. I believe this is one area where quotas make sense; there should be at most a 60-40 split on judges' backgrounds.

    I believe we should build enough prison cells to house criminals so our justice system deals properly with convictions instead of giving suspended sentences and the like.

    I don't believe prisoners should be put to work; if work needs to be done pay non criminals for it.

    I believe we should take evidence based approaches to reducing recidivism and reducing crime in general instead of broad "we should be tough" or "we should focus on reform" stances; we should have focused approaches to dealing with different types of crime and criminals as appropriate.v


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    #21
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,583 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    I'm against the death penalty in all possible scenarios, but in favour of judicial reform for longer sentences.

    I'm not a big fan of minimum sentencing though. I don't like removing discretion from judges - we just need better judges.


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    #22
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Johnboner wrote: »
    Why not just keep them in prison forever then? It has been proven that it is more expensive to execute someone than to keep them in prison.

    That's due to legal costs though.
    bluewolf wrote: »
    I can't agree with killing people to show that killing people is wrong.
    There's always the chance that you've killed an innocent person and then how are we any different?

    I don't think that is the purpose of the death penalty. Personally I'd bring in the option of euthanasia for prisoners with life sentences.


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    #23
    Fakediamond
    Registered Users Posts: 1,054 ✭✭✭Fakediamond


    The reason that there are low rates of incarceration and recidivism in Norway is because they are low levels of deprivation and high levels of State support and intervention in people's lives. Sorry, but you can't isolate one aspect of a society's response, without looking at the overall picture. We tend to look at simplistic solutions here, "lock them up" versus investing in social capital, and most importantly, imo, fairer wealth distribution, which pays dividends in lower crime rates.


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    #24
    super_furry
    Registered Users Posts: 27,322 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    I think there's a balance to be struck between the two. USA prison sentences are far too harsh and Irish prison sentences are far too lenient, especially for repeat offenders.


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    #25
    Alan_P
    Registered Users Posts: 264 ✭✭Alan_P


    Johnboner wrote: »
    It's impossible to have death penalty while being in the EU as it is mandatory to have the death penalty abolished for all members of the EU.

    It's also impossible to have the death penalty in Ireland because we voted 63-37 to impose a total, permanent Constitutional ban on it, in all cases, for all time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-first_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

    Our Constitutional ban predates the EU requirement to abolish the death penalty.


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    #26
    Johnboner
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 331 ✭✭Johnboner


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    If we had the US justice system, then a lot of black people would be in jail right now ...


    They wouldn't even get to jail, most of them would be shot after being pulled over for a broken light.


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    #27
    osmiumartist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 916 ✭✭✭osmiumartist


    Johnboner wrote: »
    This is the reason people in the US reoffend because they can't get any jobs or any support whatsoever after leaving prison. As a result they go back to crime as they don't have much choice.
    The level of freebies here though is very very generous. There's no poverty excuse really at all. Free house, 200 a week in the pocket. If you need to break the law consistently after that then throw away the key TBH.


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    #28
    JPCN1
    Registered Users Posts: 888 ✭✭✭JPCN1


    We're far too lenient on repeat offenders. Would be happy enough to see the death penalty for murder.


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    #29
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,139 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    JPCN1 wrote: »
    We're far too lenient on repeat offenders. Would be happy enough to see the death penalty for murder.

    We voted not so long ago to totally remove it from the Constitution. And we are also members of the Convention on Human Rights which means a total and utter ban. So basically you'd have to withdraw from the EU, withdraw from the Convention on Human Rights AND have a referendum passed to bring it back. That won't be happening.We'd join Belarus then as the only European countries with the death penalty. Not a great club to be in.


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    #30
    twinytwo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,180 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    Irish Justice system would need a serious overhaul.

    First thing is first, we need to bring in "younger" judges, you need people who can apply the law in the world the way it is now, not as it was 20/30/40 years ago.

    If you do the crime, you do the time. As many people have already mentioned, too many absolute scum get suspended sentences when they should be locked up.

    Yes we can never have the death penalty, but it should be there for cop killers, serial killers and pedophiles. - id be hard pushed to believe there wasn't one active in the Leinster area in the mid 90's.

    Issues like the banking collapse and other large scale white collar crime should be punished as an act of treason.

    Finally to the poster who said it is the states mandate to look after their citizens, in theory this is correct in practice nothing is further for the truth. Ireland is a country where large scale abuse by the state and catholic church is brushed under the carpet and largely ignored. Where your more likely to end up in jail for not paying your tv license than committing murder, where millions is spent on tribunals but at the end of it all no ever goes to jail.


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    #31
    Johnboner
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 331 ✭✭Johnboner


    twinytwo wrote: »
    Irish Justice system would need a serious overhaul.

    First thing is first, we need to bring in "younger" judges, you need people who can apply the law in the world the way it is now, not as it was 20/30/40 years ago.

    If you do the crime, you do the time. As many people have already mentioned, too many absolute scum get suspended sentences when they should be locked up.

    Yes we can never have the death penalty, but it should be there for cop killers, serial killers and pedophiles. - id be hard pushed to believe there wasn't one active in the Leinster area in the mid 90's.

    Issues like the banking collapse and other large scale white collar crime should be punished as an act of treason.

    Finally to the poster who said it is the states mandate to look after their citizens, in theory this is correct in practice nothing is further for the truth. Ireland is a country where large scale abuse by the state and catholic church is brushed under the carpet and largely ignored. Where your more likely to end up in jail for not paying your tv license than committing murder, where millions is spent on tribunals but at the end of it all no ever goes to jail.


    Agree with most of your post except the death penalty for cop killers. Why is cops life more important than a regular citizen? Are they superior human beings so their life is more valuable?


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