US justice system in Ireland

Johnboner

I have seen a lot of people here in after hours admiring United States justice system where burglars get 40 years and murderers get the death penalty. Would you like to see this in Ireland? Studies show that Norway which has low punishment also has low recidivism rate because they focus on rehabilitation not punishment. However in the USA it is the opposite, 1/3 of the population goes to prison at least once and it has the highest prison population in the world. USA is also known for prisons for profit. I am just trying to see as to why would anyone in Ireland would want this system.

Timberrrrrrrr

While I agree with the death penalty for murder I wouldn't like to see the US justice system bought in where people are locked away for years for minor offences.

Saying that I would like to see the Irish justice system get toughnon persistent offenders, sick of seeing scrotes in court with 70/80/90 previous convictions getting yet another slap on the wrist.

MagicIRL

I don't believe the death penalty should ever be enacted.

Instead, I believe people who currently warrant such a sentence should be incarcerated and forced in to state labour until the end of their days.

There wouldn't be a pothole unfilled nor a wall left defaced.

Johnboner

MagicIRL wrote: »

I don't believe the death penalty should ever be enacted.

Instead, I believe people who currently warrant such a sentence should be incarcerated and forced in to state labour until the end of their days.

There wouldn't be a pothole unfilled nor a wall left defaced.

Doubt they would be very motivated to work if they know they won't get anything anyway. Maybe would work better if you offered them money or reduced sentence.

Johnboner

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

While I agree with the death penalty for murder I wouldn't like to see the US justice system bought in where people are locked away for years for minor offences.

Saying that I would like to see the Irish justice system get toughnon persistent offenders, sick of seeing scrotes in court with 70/80/90 previous convictions getting yet another slap on the wrist.

It's impossible to have death penalty while being in the EU as it is mandatory to have the death penalty abolished for all members of the EU.

Gatling

We don't do justice in this country ,we seem to have mandatory suspended sentences rather than actual punishment for serious crimes ,

3 strikes should be brought in for serious crimes not little petty stuff but actual serious offences people are more interested in sob stories and making excuses for scum here than punishment

Boom_Bap

The US Justice system has just become a profitable industry now, the more people in the clink, the more profit can be made.
I would not like to see that here.

ScumLord

I wouldn't be opposed to the death penalty in really extreme cases where there's no chance of rehabilitation and there's no way the person can ever be released into the general public.

For the vast majority of crimes, even murder, rehabilitation and hard labour. We should be rebuilding the criminals, almost run the prison like a military training camp. They need to leave jail with an ability to do work.

At the moment our "justice system" doesn't do justice, it doesn't protect the people, if anything it's making better criminals.

Varik

Johnboner wrote: »

Doubt they would be very motivated to work if they know they won't get anything anyway. Maybe would work better if you offered them money or reduced sentence.

Charge them for food ect, either they pay for it or work for it.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Is there any proper jobs scheme in place for people once they leave prison?

It doesn't matter how many courses and work programmes they do in prison if nobody is willing to take the chance of employing them once they're released.

Johnboner

Varik wrote: »

Charge them for food ect, either they pay for it or work for it.

Doing these things would get us out of favor with the EU which would mean no more funding anything or just straight out throw us out for human rights abuses.

Johnboner

ScumLord wrote: »

I wouldn't be opposed to the death penalty in really extreme cases where there's no chance of rehabilitation and there's no way the person can ever be released into the general public.

For the vast majority of crimes, even murder, rehabilitation and hard labour. We should be rebuilding the criminals, almost run the prison like a military training camp. They need to leave jail with an ability to do work.

At the moment our "justice system" doesn't do justice, it doesn't protect the people, if anything it's making better criminals.

Why not just keep them in prison forever then? It has been proven that it is more expensive to execute someone than to keep them in prison.

Johnboner

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Is there any proper jobs scheme in place for people once they leave prison?

It doesn't matter how many courses and work programmes they do in prison if nobody is willing to take the chance of employing them once they're released.

This is the reason people in the US reoffend because they can't get any jobs or any support whatsoever after leaving prison. As a result they go back to crime as they don't have much choice.

ScumLord

Johnboner wrote: »

Why not just keep them in prison forever then? It has been proven that it is more expensive to execute someone than to keep them in prison.

I'm talking about serious scumbags, serial killers type stuff, which generally doesn't happen in Ireland. Any violent criminals should be studied as a way of preventing them for occurring in the future.

Varik

Johnboner wrote: »

Doing these things would get us out of favor with the EU which would mean no more funding anything or just straight out throw us out for human rights abuses.

Sure it would.

Pretty safe bet the EU isn't kicking anyone out anytime soon.

Johnboner

Varik wrote: »

Sure it would.

Pretty safe bet the EU isn't kicking anyone out anytime soon.

European Union definitely wouldn't tolerate human rights abuses, not a chance. They keep preaching about their human rights and no death penalty, so if one of their member states starts violating human rights then the result is obvious.

I can't agree with killing people to show that killing people is wrong.
There's always the chance that you've killed an innocent person and then how are we any different?

If we had the US justice system, then a lot of black people would be in jail right now ...

CalamariFritti

I would like to see something in between. I wouldn't want to see someone for three minor offences to go to jail for ten years. I don't think they do that in the US either. But equally I find it laughable that people with double digit figures of serious criminal convictions continue to get short and suspended sentences.

The state has an obligation to protect her people. It's one of the fundamentals in the deal between people and state, the definition of state even. We mustn't lose sight of that.

Earthhorse

I'm against the death penalty because no justice system is without flaws and people should have the right to appeal. Most States in the US don't have the death penalty anyway.

I'm against most judges coming from a prosecutorial background, which is how it is in the Staes I believe but also against the reverse in the Irish justice system. I believe this is one area where quotas make sense; there should be at most a 60-40 split on judges' backgrounds.

I believe we should build enough prison cells to house criminals so our justice system deals properly with convictions instead of giving suspended sentences and the like.

I don't believe prisoners should be put to work; if work needs to be done pay non criminals for it.

I believe we should take evidence based approaches to reducing recidivism and reducing crime in general instead of broad "we should be tough" or "we should focus on reform" stances; we should have focused approaches to dealing with different types of crime and criminals as appropriate.v

osarusan

I'm against the death penalty in all possible scenarios, but in favour of judicial reform for longer sentences.

I'm not a big fan of minimum sentencing though. I don't like removing discretion from judges - we just need better judges.

Little CuChulainn

Johnboner wrote: »

Why not just keep them in prison forever then? It has been proven that it is more expensive to execute someone than to keep them in prison.

That's due to legal costs though.

bluewolf wrote: »

I can't agree with killing people to show that killing people is wrong.
There's always the chance that you've killed an innocent person and then how are we any different?

I don't think that is the purpose of the death penalty. Personally I'd bring in the option of euthanasia for prisoners with life sentences.

Fakediamond

The reason that there are low rates of incarceration and recidivism in Norway is because they are low levels of deprivation and high levels of State support and intervention in people's lives. Sorry, but you can't isolate one aspect of a society's response, without looking at the overall picture. We tend to look at simplistic solutions here, "lock them up" versus investing in social capital, and most importantly, imo, fairer wealth distribution, which pays dividends in lower crime rates.

super_furry

I think there's a balance to be struck between the two. USA prison sentences are far too harsh and Irish prison sentences are far too lenient, especially for repeat offenders.

Alan_P

Johnboner wrote: »

It's impossible to have death penalty while being in the EU as it is mandatory to have the death penalty abolished for all members of the EU.

It's also impossible to have the death penalty in Ireland because we voted 63-37 to impose a total, permanent Constitutional ban on it, in all cases, for all time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-first_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

Our Constitutional ban predates the EU requirement to abolish the death penalty.

Johnboner

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If we had the US justice system, then a lot of black people would be in jail right now ...

They wouldn't even get to jail, most of them would be shot after being pulled over for a broken light.

osmiumartist

Johnboner wrote: »

This is the reason people in the US reoffend because they can't get any jobs or any support whatsoever after leaving prison. As a result they go back to crime as they don't have much choice.

The level of freebies here though is very very generous. There's no poverty excuse really at all. Free house, 200 a week in the pocket. If you need to break the law consistently after that then throw away the key TBH.

JPCN1

We're far too lenient on repeat offenders. Would be happy enough to see the death penalty for murder.

namloc1980

JPCN1 wrote: »

We're far too lenient on repeat offenders. Would be happy enough to see the death penalty for murder.

We voted not so long ago to totally remove it from the Constitution. And we are also members of the Convention on Human Rights which means a total and utter ban. So basically you'd have to withdraw from the EU, withdraw from the Convention on Human Rights AND have a referendum passed to bring it back. That won't be happening.We'd join Belarus then as the only European countries with the death penalty. Not a great club to be in.

twinytwo

Irish Justice system would need a serious overhaul.

First thing is first, we need to bring in "younger" judges, you need people who can apply the law in the world the way it is now, not as it was 20/30/40 years ago.

If you do the crime, you do the time. As many people have already mentioned, too many absolute scum get suspended sentences when they should be locked up.

Yes we can never have the death penalty, but it should be there for cop killers, serial killers and pedophiles. - id be hard pushed to believe there wasn't one active in the Leinster area in the mid 90's.

Issues like the banking collapse and other large scale white collar crime should be punished as an act of treason.

Finally to the poster who said it is the states mandate to look after their citizens, in theory this is correct in practice nothing is further for the truth. Ireland is a country where large scale abuse by the state and catholic church is brushed under the carpet and largely ignored. Where your more likely to end up in jail for not paying your tv license than committing murder, where millions is spent on tribunals but at the end of it all no ever goes to jail.

Johnboner

twinytwo wrote: »

Irish Justice system would need a serious overhaul.

First thing is first, we need to bring in "younger" judges, you need people who can apply the law in the world the way it is now, not as it was 20/30/40 years ago.

If you do the crime, you do the time. As many people have already mentioned, too many absolute scum get suspended sentences when they should be locked up.

Yes we can never have the death penalty, but it should be there for cop killers, serial killers and pedophiles. - id be hard pushed to believe there wasn't one active in the Leinster area in the mid 90's.

Issues like the banking collapse and other large scale white collar crime should be punished as an act of treason.

Finally to the poster who said it is the states mandate to look after their citizens, in theory this is correct in practice nothing is further for the truth. Ireland is a country where large scale abuse by the state and catholic church is brushed under the carpet and largely ignored. Where your more likely to end up in jail for not paying your tv license than committing murder, where millions is spent on tribunals but at the end of it all no ever goes to jail.

Agree with most of your post except the death penalty for cop killers. Why is cops life more important than a regular citizen? Are they superior human beings so their life is more valuable?

Little CuChulainn

Johnboner wrote: »

Agree with most of your post except the death penalty for cop killers. Why is cops life more important than a regular citizen? Are they superior human beings so their life is more valuable?

It's not that a cops life is more important than anyone else. It's that police are responsible for maintaining law and order. In Ireland this is done, at least in theory, by the consent of the people. That is why Gardaí are not routinely armed. The Garda is a symbol of the will of the people. If a criminal is prepared to use lethal force against a Garda while on duty then they are considered to be more dangerous than a person who murders a non-garda because they have decided they have not only decided to break the law and kill someone but have also shown they will resist the will of the people to the utmost level.

twinytwo

Johnboner wrote: »

Agree with most of your post except the death penalty for cop killers. Why is cops life more important than a regular citizen? Are they superior human beings so their life is more valuable?

If your serious about preventing crime, drugs, gangland crime etc. The police need to be untouchable.

Varik

namloc1980 wrote: »

So basically you'd have to withdraw from the EU

Irexit (or whatever crap name the press would give it)

namloc1980 wrote: »

withdraw from the Convention on Human Rights

Soon to be French president Fillon has put has said he would if unable to get the reform he wanted, and before Brexit while still Home Secretary Theresa May said that the UK should leave as well in this case instead of Brexit. Clubs only going to get smaller.

namloc1980 wrote: »

So basically you'd have to withdraw from the EU, withdraw from the Convention on Human Rights AND have a referendum passed to bring it back.

We've enough of them, unlike the US we know that ammendments are what they say and aren't unchangable.

Grayson

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

It's not that a cops life is more important than anyone else. It's that police are responsible for maintaining law and order. In Ireland this is done, at least in theory, by the consent of the people. That is why Gardaí are not routinely armed. The Garda is a symbol of the will of the people. If a criminal is prepared to use lethal force against a Garda while on duty then they are considered to be more dangerous than a person who murders a non-garda because they have decided they have not only decided to break the law and kill someone but have also shown they will resist the will of the people to the utmost level.

That logically makes no sense. You list a mental process that a cop killer would have to go through before killing a garda. However you'd have to prove that they went through that actual mental thought process first. It could be as simple as "I'm robbing a bank, there's a cop, shoot at him". That doesn't require the thought process you describe and would apply to anyone killed when trying to stop the robbery.

Anyway, the death penalty shouldn't be allowed simply because there have been so many mistakes in the past. It's bad enough to lock someone up for life but to take their life by mistake. There's no coming back from that.

Little CuChulainn

Grayson wrote: »

That logically makes no sense. You list a mental process that a cop killer would have to go through before killing a garda. However you'd have to prove that they went through that actual mental thought process first. It could be as simple as "I'm robbing a bank, there's a cop, shoot at him". That doesn't require the thought process you describe and would apply to anyone killed when trying to stop the robbery.

Anyway, the death penalty shouldn't be allowed simply because there have been so many mistakes in the past. It's bad enough to lock someone up for life but to take their life by mistake. There's no coming back from that.

What is your point? The state have to prove that they deliberately took the life of a Garda they knew was on duty. That's why the capital murder charge of the Murrays was quashed.

Grayson

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

What is your point? The state have to prove that they deliberately took the life of a Garda they knew was on duty. That's why the capital murder charge of the Murrays was quashed.

My point is that you have described a particular process that their minds have to go through and that's why killing a Gardai is worse than killing a regular person. The fact is that the culprit might not have gone through the same thought process. And you'd be willing to execute someone for an action, that although horrible, may not conform to the reasons you've described.

Plus in every single court case the court has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the person is guilty. That happens in every capital case in the US and yet mistakes still occur. No matter what standards are applied, mistakes occur. And knowing that it's not worth the state taking the ultimate step of taking a life because it's the one thing that is irreversible.

Little CuChulainn

Grayson wrote: »

My point is that you have described a particular process that their minds have to go through and that's why killing a Gardai is worse than killing a regular person. The fact is that the culprit might not have gone through the same thought process. And you'd be willing to execute someone for an action, that although horrible, may not conform to the reasons you've described.

But the state have to prove they want through that process. They have to prove that the killer knew the victim was a Garda and acting in the line of duty when they killed them. If your argument is that they would have killed anyone they encountered no matter who they were then I'd argue that person is even more dangerous then someone who chooses to kill a Garda.

Alan_P

Varik wrote: »

I
We've enough of them, unlike the US we know that ammendments are what they say and aren't unchangable.

But the amendment to reinstate the death penalty has to pass, not just be held. Where's your evidence that it would ?

The matter is rarely polled in this country, but the few recent polls I've seen suggest that our opposition to capital punishment has, if anything, grown since the referendum. If you know of any reputable polls that suggest such an amendment would come anywhere close to passing, I'd be interested to see them.

And note that the EU arguments are, to a large extent, irrelevant :- we banned the death penalty in this country by popular plebiscite before the EU ban.

We don't have the death penalty in this country because a significant majority of Irish citizens are opposed to it, to the extent that they voted to impose the strongest possible ban on it, leaving no loopholes or exemptions where it could ever be reinstated.