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Bernadette Scully found not guilty of the manslaughter of her daughter

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Comments

  • Posts: 19,174 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Again, folks, there's been a verdict.

    It's decided, it's over. We can't keep muttering "she did it". There are many explanations - to me suggesting she positively wanted her child to die, like it was on her wish list, is a grotesque way of twisting it. But even if I held that view, I couldn't maintain it now.

    You can hold whatever view you like, just because 12 other people decided she not guilty, doesn't mean that you can't hold different opinions. That's all it is a different opinion. By law she's not guilty, that is that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    Why, what do you think would have happened?

    I think it would have been recorded as a tragic accident


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭05eaftqbrs9jlh


    As somebody who has lived with a young family member having up to 100 grand and petit mal seizures per day (which were regulated by the Ketogenic Diet for years but he's now on drugs to stop the severe night ones returning, although they're not working at all)... I can safely say that this woman did not make a decision to END HER OWN CHILD'S LIFE easily. Can you picture somebody you love convulsing and writhing and foaming at the mouth..? Can you imagine not being able to speak with them or do anything for them all day because they're perpetually zonked between seizures and absences or actually having them, sometimes for hours at a time?

    The medical marijuana isn't f'ing available anywhere and families are suffering because of it. This woman was incredibly brave to do what she did and I hope she can go on living life now and mourn the loss of her poor daughter to this crippling illness.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,969 ✭✭✭✭alchemist33


    A very sad case, but I'm extremely surprised by the verdict. If she had been found guilty I doubt she would have got a custodial sentence, but still, with the high dose of medication given, the suicide attempt, the note, I wonder what the jury thought actually did happen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,704 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    byronbay2 wrote: »
    Very sad case, no doubt, but how she could be found not guilty of manslaughter is unbelievable. The evidence that what she did was deliberate seemed overwhelming to me.

    It really is, its seems very obvious that this case was decided on emotion.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 ck_fluffy_32


    Oh and clearly she should be struck off, at the bare minimum.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 35,676 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    There is some actual top quality people in here today.


    I mean literal top quality people who can handle life in its full regardless of what it throws at them.


    Actually no scratch that,

    There are absolute morons in here of the curtain twitcher kind who have an opinion on everything. Despite what a jury of their peers have come to here and hearing the full evidence you still think its wrong.

    Thank god your not my neighbours you bitter bitter people.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,704 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    I can safely say that this woman did not make a decision to END HER OWN CHILD'S LIFE easily.
    Its not supposed to be about how easy or not it was, its supposed to be about whether she made that decision at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18 Merdit


    listermint wrote: »
    There is some actual top quality people in here today.


    There are absolute morons in here of the curtain twitcher kind who have an opinion on everything. Despite what a jury of their peers have come to here and hearing the full evidence you still think its wrong.

    The internet is full of them and the lack of empathy is enough to drive anyone to despair.  No wonder people feel so alone, so judged and so overwhelmed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,365 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Have the people who posted actually read the linked article in full? It seems that not all have.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    I am glad she was found not guilty. I wonder if a jury of legal professionals would decide the same but I think there should be space for humanity and compassion in law.

    That being said this has nothing to do with euthanasia and I actually wonder how could anyone make that connection. Daughter in this case was not in a position to make a decision for herself and while I am in favor of it, I certainly wouldn't want others deciding for someone severely disabled.


  • Posts: 19,174 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Merdit wrote: »
    The internet is full of them and the lack of empathy is enough to drive anyone to despair.  No wonder people feel so alone, so judged and so overwhelmed.

    So just because some people are surprised by the verdict you think they have no empathy?
    As someone who has had quite a bit of dealings with juries over the years, I can assure you that juries use their hearts in decisions.
    They may try to do things to the letter of the law, but their hearts take over.
    That doesn't mean that I don't feel sympathy for Bernadette Scully, far from it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 ck_fluffy_32


    If it had been a man, and not medically trained, the verdict may or may not have been the same but the bleeding hearts on here would be conspicuous by their absence.


  • Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A very sad case, but I'm extremely surprised by the verdict. If she had been found guilty I doubt she would have got a custodial sentence, but still, with the high dose of medication given, the suicide attempt, the note, I wonder what the jury thought actually did happen.
    A guilty verdict should only be delivered if the jury are convinced 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Personally I think there is cause for reasonable doubt that her actions were intentional, and keep in mind the jury hear more evidence and testimony than is reported in the media.


  • Posts: 19,174 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    As somebody who has lived with a young family member having up to 100 grand and petit mal seizures per day (which were regulated by the Ketogenic Diet for years but he's now on drugs to stop the severe night ones returning, although they're not working at all)... I can safely say that this woman did not make a decision to END HER OWN CHILD'S LIFE easily.

    Do you think she made the decision to end her child's life?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,060 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    Mod:

    I've deleted some posts because there were some things said that could get boards in trouble...

    Remember lads, there is a fine line between making a slanderous accusation and adding your opinion. I don't want to hand out cards/bans early in a thread for such an emotive topic so think before you post, ok?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭05eaftqbrs9jlh


    Its not supposed to be about how easy or not it was, its supposed to be about whether she made that decision at all.
    "Professor Marie Cassidy said she had suffered a seizure six to eight hours before her death and that any of her illnesses could have contributed. She also said that she had been at risk of a potentially fatal seizure at any time.

    The State argued that the chloral hydrate was a substantial cause of death. It did not have to prove it to be the only cause.

    Tara Burns SC, prosecuting, said it wasn’t in doubt that Bernadette Scully loved her daughter very much and cared for her to the highest level.

    “What this case is about is the events of a specific day when chloral hydrate was administered,†she said, noting the levels that she had said she had given.

    “Any reasonable person in the situation Ms Scully was in, a doctor, would have realised that administering that level of chloral hydrate carried a high degree of risk of causing a substantial risk of injury to her daughter,†she said, outlining the prosecution case.

    Bernadette Scully’s legal team argued that there was a clear indication in the post-mortem results of the possibility of a terminal seizure and Kenneth Fogarty SC said that the traumatic event that had led to the maladministration alleged was indeed a massive seizure after 11 o’clock.

    He said it was clear that the only reason a person would administer more chloral hydrate was if the initial dose was not achieving the desired result. He pointed out that other anticonvulsant medications had life-threatening effects on Emily.

    He also noted that nobody had a formula to equate the amount of chloral hydrate taken into a body with the amount of its metabolite that would be found in the blood.

    The judge

    Mr Justice Patrick McCarthy told the jury that it had to be satisfied that the accused had failed to observe the ordinary and necessary care expected of her to the point that she was negligent in a very high degree. That negligence must have brought a very high degree of risk of substantial personal injury to others.

    He said it did not matter what the accused woman’s state of mind was.

    He said that, in the case of a doctor, she could follow general and approved medical practice, unless obviously defective. She could depart from that practice unless it involved something no similarly qualified expert exercising care would do.

    He reminded the jury of the evidence of a retired consultant paediatrician, who was also a member of the Advisory Committee for Human Medicines, the national body that decides if drugs are safe and effective

    Dr Kevin Connolly had been asked about the high doses of chloral hydrate Bernadette Scully said she had given her daughter in a short timeframe.

    He referred to people, who metabolise drugs at different rates to most people in clinical trials.

    “If Emily was one of those outliers, and it had been found she required more frequent or higher doses, then this was appropriate,†he said.

    He explained that Emily’s body might have been able to handle an increasing dose up to a certain point but then became overwhelmed.

    “That can happen, that the body can only take so much and then it’s too much,†he said."
    She died because she was very unwell due to a number of factors. She was given a drug to help with her seizures by her mother. Her mother then determined to give her more of the drug, but her body gave up (and it's not a bit surprising given the severity of her condition and what she physically ensured daily). The jury came to their "not guilty" verdict based on that evidence.

    What I'm saying is that from an emotive standpoint, what she did was totally understandable. She watched this disorder basically rape her small child day after day with no solution in sight until she died. She took what could be perceived as drastic action in a dire situation. Hopefully she will draw attention to the people who suffer through their entire lives and those who care for them tirelessly and are totally ignored by the state; both legally and medically.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    If it had been a man, and not medically trained, the verdict may or may not have been the same but the bleeding hearts on here would be conspicuous by their absence.

    What an absolute load of horse manure… don't make this a gender issue.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 7,887 ✭✭✭Allinall


    If it had been a man, and not medically trained, the verdict may or may not have been the same but the bleeding hearts on here would be conspicuous by their absence.

    As would the obvious trolls.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 ck_fluffy_32


    When did disagreeing with an opinion make one a troll ?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Yeah, reading more up on this, it would seem that the defence's case was based on a number of points; primarily that there was no intention to administer a fatal dose, that the dose given wasn't foreseeably fatal (i.e. no negligence), and that there are other reasons why she may have died.

    A lot of the "after" evidence such as suicide notes and statements to Gardai was claimed to be circumstantial.

    And the jury apparently agreed with the defence.

    I always find it interesting when the outcome of a case is at odds with how the evidence is being presented by the media. It reaffirms the need to enforce rules about subjudice and perhaps even makes a good case for all criminal trials to be subject to a publishing blackout until a verdict is reached.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    A case which really underlies just how little help and support there is for those caring for disabled family.

    The woman sought help and was not sufficiently given some.

    The jury gave their verdict based on that I believe and fair play for doing so.

    Will anything change? Of course not. It'll just be as you were as ever.


  • Posts: 22,384 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I didn't make anything up.

    She didn't like HER situation and wanted to change it for the better.

    Her daughter died so HER life was easier.

    The note refers to pain, isolation, suffering, struggle.

    Yes, and removing the daughter from her life means they are over, ergo better, easier.

    No need to shout, no need for the caps lock, the capitals etc.

    As I said, your suggestion that she said she wanted the easy life in her note was simply made up by you.

    And, as I said, that was fairly pathetic. Why would you make that up? Does it make you feel clever? It's rather strange, don't you think?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭RollieFingers


    Technically I don't think this was the correct legal decision, but really what good could come from giving this woman a custodial sentence? None that I can see, so I think the jury made the right choice. Terrible case.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,781 ✭✭✭Knine


    Disgraceful verdict.

    I agree with euthanasia but this was clearly to make the mother's life easier as she said so herself in the "suicide note".

    I am a full time Carer of a disabled child. The saying walk a day in someone elses shoes applies here. Unless you look after a seriously disabled child full time with no help you are not in a position to judge.

    Poor woman & such a tragic case but one that many Carers in Ireland can identify with. There is simply no supports, no respite & the horrific worry of what will happen our children when we are gone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭Jimbob1977


    This decision could open up so many legal and ethical quandaries.

    As an example, an elderly relative is in excrutiating pain and their son/daughter is worn out from the stress and emotion. The son/daughter could give a fatal dose and point back to this case. We might have embarked on the road to euthanasia.

    At a minimum, I assume the lady has lost her licence to practice medicine.


  • Posts: 22,384 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    This decision could open up so many legal and ethical quandaries.

    As an example, an elderly relative is in excrutiating pain and their son/daughter is worn out from the stress and emotion. The son/daughter could give a fatal dose and point back to this case. We might have embarked on the road to euthanasia.

    At a minimum, I assume the lady has lost her licence to practice medicine.

    A not guilty verdict based on the particular facts opens no quandaries whatsoever.

    Whatever about her licence, she lost the daughter she dreamed of, there is no suggestion that she's raring to get back to practice.

    If she does, you are of course entitled to make a complaint to the Medical Council.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,365 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Technically I don't think this was the correct legal decision, but really what good could come from giving this woman a custodial sentence? None that I can see, so I think the jury made the right choice. Terrible case.


    Technically i would disagree that the verdict was incorrect. The defence raised a number of points that cast doubt on her guilt.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 157 ✭✭Randle P. McMurphy


    The real crime here is the way we as a society allow others and their loved ones to suffer terribly when there is a solution available.

    As for the verdict: “I have always found that mercy bears richer fruits than strict justice.” A. Lincoln


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 434 ✭✭picturehangup


    As the mother of a son who suffers from autism, high-functioning sort, my son is offered respite every month, despite the fact that there are others, such as poor Emily, who needed it more. For me, this case highlights that respite services are NOT delivered to those who are in desperate need of them. My son receives his respite in the same locality as Dr Scully. I would happily relinquish my son's respite to someone like Dr. Scully, who was so badly in need, and more deserving, it had to come to this sorry stage. Shame on HSE. Doctor or not, Dr. Scully is a mother with a limited supply of energy, she was an EXHAUSTED, burnt-out mum, with NO support. As Knine above said. No -one can judge unless they are in the same position, and have walked those shoes. I hope Dr Scully can now grieve her child in peace, take her space, and resume her position as a medic. I would be happy to attend her, because she, more than any young know-it-all spark out of college, UNDERSTANDS. She deserves to be allowed move on with her life, and by all accounts, she is/was a tremendous Doctor.


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