Louise O Neill on rape culture.

ivytwine · 13-12-2016 10:07PM

RonFan wrote: »

The overpowering factor still does not account for it. The reason for the difference is deeply psychological and hence not easily discernible. But it's our lack of understanding on that level, which leads us to think that the casual view of sex is functional. Time will tell that this is not the case. Younger generations of women coming up in this culture are more and more having a view of 'tease all men, toy with some' and this is what's leading to the problems termed inappropriately as "rape culture". The cultural trends leading to these issues are rapidly increasing and nearing epidemic levels, and you'll see that as time progresses.

I hope you can try and understand I'm coming from a more nuanced position here.

It's pretty easily discernible as has been posted here. It's not logical of course, but then our reaction to any crime is not logical. I mean, we're all going to die, so who cares if someone gets murdered?

I also would argue that pre-sexual revolution, or in the 60s/70s were the only time we had what could be termed a rape culture. (Hate the term myself). Women were blamed for rape routinely, and perpetrators protected. I think things are better now. Sexual abuse was so taboo. Marital rape wasn't a crime. There are tons of examples out there of how hidden this stuff in the past. I don't think rates have changed, I think we're talking about it now.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 10:09PM

neonsofa wrote: »

But if people/society were to place more "value" on sex generally and were to view sex as a sacred act between only a loving married couple for example, then surely rape would still be traumatic for the victim, given that the once sacred act of love is now reduced to a physical act of pleasure for the rapist. Placing more "value" on sex surely makes rape more traumatic if anything?

Of course it would still be traumatic, I've never implicated I'd have thought otherwise. Yes it does make rape more traumatic, that's why all of a sudden cheapening it can only result in chaos as is now the case.

ivytwine · 13-12-2016 10:09PM

RonFan wrote: »

I'd be shocked if you honestly thought it's not self evident that heterosexual rape impacts females far more than males. This is just absolute common sense. Of course rape occurs in societies where promiscuity is frowned upon, but that is of the forceful kind in far more incidence. The vast majority of rapes in the west start off as consensual activity (say kissing etc.) which is directly linked to promiscuity being normalised.

Sex is about mutual pleasure? Why then is prostitution so common (and incresingly so)?

Have you proof that prostitution is becoming more common?

RonFan · 13-12-2016 10:12PM

ivytwine wrote: »

Have you proof that prostitution is becoming more common?

You focused on that part which was merely in brackets because you had absolutely no answer to the actual question in hand. If sex is about mutual pleasure, why is prostitution admittedly common?

ivytwine · 13-12-2016 10:14PM

RonFan wrote: »

Of course it would still be traumatic, I've never implicated I'd have thought otherwise. Yes it does make rape more traumatic, that's why all of a sudden cheapening it can only result in chaos as is now the case.

Where's the chaos? I gave you an example from 1945 in Europe where 100,000 women were raped. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32529679

Are you saying things are equally as bad since the sexual revolution? Because that would mean every single woman I know is a rape victim and as far as I know I'm the only one in my circle that unlucky.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 10:15PM

ivytwine wrote: »

It's pretty easily discernible as has been posted here. It's not logical of course, but then our reaction to any crime is not logical. I mean, we're all going to die, so who cares if someone gets murdered?

I also would argue that pre-sexual revolution, or in the 60s/70s were the only time we had what could be termed a rape culture. (Hate the term myself). Women were blamed for rape routinely, and perpetrators protected. I think things are better now. Sexual abuse was so taboo. Marital rape wasn't a crime. There are tons of examples out there of how hidden this stuff in the past. I don't think rates have changed, I think we're talking about it now.

There is of course a reason. Everything has a reason, though not always an easily discernible one as in the case of why rape is so traumatic. It is to do with the female's unconscious mind, that is why.

"pre-sexual revolution" attitudes were far better, I would argue. It was far easier to believe the woman because if she was not known to be the kind of women to engage in casual sex her testimony could more easily be believed. Now that casual sex is the norm there is no way whatsoever to prove rape.

ivytwine · 13-12-2016 10:18PM

RonFan wrote: »

You focused on that part which was merely in brackets because you had absolutely no answer to the actual question in hand. If sex is about mutual pleasure, why is prostitution admittedly common?

Prostitution has been around since year dot. Again I'd like to know why it's *now* more common.

I have no idea why people visit prostitutes tbh. Loneliness, unable to connect with others, sexual gratification... for most people sex is about mutual pleasure, which isn't about love either. You can still desire someone and not want a relationship while respecting their safety.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 10:18PM

ivytwine wrote: »

Where's the chaos? I gave you an example from 1945 in Europe where 100,000 women were raped. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32529679

Are you saying things are equally as bad since the sexual revolution? Because that would mean every single woman I know is a rape victim and as far as I know I'm the only one in my circle that unlucky.

You said sex is about mutual pleasure, then why is prostitution a billion euro industry?

That was in a war time. Of course there's going to be rape then, what's it got to do with anything?

neonsofa · 13-12-2016 10:19PM

RonFan wrote: »

Of course it would still be traumatic, I've never implicated I'd have thought otherwise. Yes it does make rape more traumatic, that's why all of a sudden cheapening it can only result in chaos as is now the case.

I'm sorry, you've lost me. If placing a "higher value" on sex would make rape more traumatic then how is the sudden "cheapening" of sex the reason for people viewing rape as a traumatic experience? (That question is phrased awfully but it's 10.20pm and my mind is not working!)

mzungu · 13-12-2016 10:19PM

RonFan wrote: »

I'd be shocked if you honestly thought it's not self evident that heterosexual rape impacts females far more than males. This is just absolute common sense. Of course rape occurs in societies where promiscuity is frowned upon, but that is of the forceful kind in far more incidence. The vast majority of rapes in the west start off as consensual activity (say kissing etc.) which is directly linked to promiscuity being normalised.

Sex is about mutual pleasure? Why then is prostitution so common (and incresingly so)?

While promiscuity is not frowned upon in the west, it does look like we are having less sex than the generation before us. Link Here

So, I would not buy into the line of thought that sexual liberation has brought about a footloose and fancy-free era of promiscuity.

Widdershins · 13-12-2016 10:20PM

RonFan wrote: »

Sex is about mutual pleasure? Why then is prostitution so common (and incresingly so)?

Prostitution is a way of earning money, for prostitutes, and a way of obtaining sex, for their clients. It is not usually the type of sex either would have if they had the choice of partner, relationship and situation.

I'm totally baffled as to how prostitution is supposed to disprove that sex is about mutual pleasure.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 10:20PM

ivytwine wrote: »

Prostitution has been around since year dot. Again I'd like to know why it's *now* more common.

I have no idea why people visit prostitutes tbh. Loneliness, unable to connect with others, sexual gratification... for most people sex is about mutual pleasure, which isn't about love either. You can still desire someone and not want a relationship while respecting their safety.

If the sexual mores are opened up and more sex is happening, the majority of the sex is going to be gotten by a minority of the men, and the majority are going to turn at higher frequency to prostitution to compensate. That is why it's increasing, as you'd see if you researched the question.

Widdershins · 13-12-2016 10:22PM

RonFan wrote: »

There is of course a reason. Everything has a reason, though not always an easily discernible one as in the case of why rape is so traumatic. It is to do with the female's unconscious mind, that is why.

In that case would a chaste nun be more or less affected than a lay woman who was raped? Clearly the nun does not wield her sexuality as a kind of power.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 10:22PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Prostitution is a way of earning money, for prostitutes, and a way of obtaining sex, for their clients. It is not usually the type of sex either would have if they had the choice of partner, relationship and situation.

I'm totally baffled as to how prostitution is supposed to disprove that sex is about mutual pleasure.

She was arguing that both men and women can only get off if they believe the other partner to be enjoying the act, that's what I was disproving in referencing prostitution.

Widdershins · 13-12-2016 10:23PM

RonFan wrote: »

If the sexual mores are opened up and more sex is happening, the majority of the sex is going to be gotten by a minority of the men, and the majority are going to turn at higher frequency to prostitution to compensate. That is why it's increasing, as you'd see if you researched the question.

That just means they can't have mutually pleasurable sex so they settle for paid sex with a prostitute as a poor substitute.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 10:24PM

mzungu wrote: »

While promiscuity is not frowned upon in the west, it does look like we are having less sex than the generation before us. Link Here

So, I would not buy into the line of thought that sexual liberation has brought about a footloose and fancy-free era of promiscuity.

It's not necessarily that there is more promiscuity happening, though I would be highly skeptical of claims that's so, but rather that promiscuity is being more normalised. The two aren't the same.

Widdershins · 13-12-2016 10:24PM

RonFan wrote: »

She was arguing that both men and women can only get off if they believe the other partner to be enjoying the act, that's what I was disproving in referencing prostitution.

Are you sure? I think a rape victim would not argue that. Perhaps there's been a misunderstanding. I lost track of the comments though..

If you mean the mutually pleasurable bit, in general it is but rapists get a sexual pleasure from the action itself, iirc it's to do with anger, they are not normal in psychological terms and don't function the same way as normal people do r.e sex.
Prostitutes afaik usually simulate their own pleasure for the benefit of their client.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 10:26PM

Widdershins wrote: »

That just means they can't have mutually pleasurable sex so they settle for paid sex with a prostitute as a poor substitute.

True, but the argument was that rape cannot be about sexual desire because the victim doesn't enjoy it, so rape can obviously be a substitute for pleasurable mutual sex. Hence the argument is false.

ivytwine · 13-12-2016 10:26PM

RonFan wrote: »

There is of course a reason. Everything has a reason, though not always an easily discernible one as in the case of why rape is so traumatic. It is to do with the female's unconscious mind, that is why.

"pre-sexual revolution" attitudes were far better, I would argue. It was far easier to believe the woman because if she was not known to be the kind of women to engage in casual sex her testimony could more easily be believed. Now that casual sex is the norm there is no way whatsoever to prove rape.

only if you were a woman of a certain standing in society. And I'm not even referring to "loose women" or whatever mad Madonna/whore complex is in your head. Serving girls were often the victims of the upper classes' "droit de seigneur" and what recourse did they have? Women genuinely got put into laundries in this country for being too pretty, and they might have been the shyest girls going.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 10:28PM

ivytwine wrote: »

only if you were a woman of a certain standing in society. And I'm not even referring to "loose women" or whatever mad Madonna/whore complex is in your head. Serving girls were often the victims of the upper classes' "droit de seigneur" and what recourse did they have? Women genuinely got put into laundries in this country for being too pretty, and they might have been the shyest girls going.

That is what caused the sexual revolution though, it was becoming untenable already. The revolution was just a tipping point of forces that were already well in play. The fabric of western civilisation was uprooted in the 19th century. Everyhing that's happened since is the ensuing collapse.

ivytwine · 13-12-2016 10:31PM

RonFan wrote: »

She was arguing that both men and women can only get off if they believe the other partner to be enjoying the act, that's what I was disproving in referencing prostitution.

I said for most people. Maybe for prostitution it is different, I wouldn't know. As Widdershins says, prostitutes generally simulate pleasure. Same as all the theatrical groans in porn.

And there's a difference between "oh I think she's faking this a bit" and "she's screaming in pain and crying."

ivytwine · 13-12-2016 10:34PM

RonFan wrote: »

You said sex is about mutual pleasure, then why is prostitution a billion euro industry?

That was in a war time. Of course there's going to be rape then, what's it got to do with anything?

Already said why I think people go to prostitutes, it's not my area of expertise.

The WWII incidents support my belief that rape is about power, and I would like you to point to a singular example in the West in 2016 comparable to that, to support your assertion that incidence of rape has worsened since the sexual revolution.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 10:36PM

ivytwine wrote: »

I said for most people. Maybe for prostitution it is different, I wouldn't know. As Widdershins says, prostitutes generally simulate pleasure. Same as all the theatrical groans in porn.

And there's a difference between "oh I think she's faking this a bit" and "she's screaming in pain and crying."

Then why can't the example you gave be included in the minority? Listen, I never intended for this to turn into debating for debating's sake. My original point was that it's a problem that the western psyche as a whole has a schismatic and dis integrative relationship to sexuality, and that this is what is causing the problems inappropriately termed "rape culture". It would be great if we could have more sophisticated discussions on the subject, but it always turns into nonsense about who should stop doing what as if that weren't already obvious and hence irrelevant.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 10:37PM

ivytwine wrote: »

Already said why I think people go to prostitutes, it's not my area of expertise.

The WWII incidents support my belief that rape is about power, and I would like you to point to a singular example in the West in 2016 comparable to that, to support your assertion that incidence of rape has worsened since the sexual revolution.

They do support your belief that rape is about power, but you claimed it's about power at the EXCLUSION of sexual gratification which is a baseless assertion. There's no reason why it can't be both.

ivytwine · 13-12-2016 10:41PM

RonFan wrote: »

They do support your belief that rape is about power, but you claimed it's about power at the EXCLUSION of sexual gratification which is a baseless assertion. There's no reason why it can't be both.

Ah ok. I see it as definitely about power more than sexual gratification though. That's a part of it, but it's not a normal sexual gratification need. Part of the gratification comes from the power and terror over the victim. I think for serial offenders it's definitely power first or more. If you examine the other facets of their lives they need absolute control everywhere.

Regarding the wartime rapes, this was definite power in my view.

ivytwine · 13-12-2016 10:44PM

RonFan wrote: »

Then why can't the example you gave be included in the minority? Listen, I never intended for this to turn into debating for debating's sake. My original point was that it's a problem that the western psyche as a whole has a schismatic and dis integrative relationship to sexuality, and that this is what is causing the problems inappropriately termed "rape culture". It would be great if we could have more sophisticated discussions on the subject, but it always turns into nonsense about who should stop doing what as if that weren't already obvious and hence irrelevant.

I agree with you on the discussions factor, it can get to be an emotional topic for me as I'm sure you can appreciate!

I don't agree with you that it's a symptom of western society's decline because I feel it's an old age problem that we're talking about now.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 10:44PM

ivytwine wrote: »

Ah ok. I see it as definitely about power more than sexual gratification though. That's a part of it, but it's not a normal sexual gratification need. Part of the gratification comes from the power and terror over the victim. I think for serial offenders it's definitely power first or more. If you examine the other facets of their lives they need absolute control everywhere.

Regarding the wartime rapes, this was definite power in my view.

However the rapes that are being described as supposedly part of "rape culture" are not about power, as in the case of those in war time. They're about men who think they're "getting their hole" only to be denied definite consent but push their luck and go through with it anyway. It's massively different.

ivytwine · 13-12-2016 10:51PM

RonFan wrote: »

However the rapes that are being described as supposedly part of "rape culture" are not about power, as in the case of those in war time. They're about men who think they're "getting their hole" only to be denied definite consent but push their luck and go through with it anyway. It's massively different.

Well I think I said further back in the thread that I don't agree with the term nor that we have a huge incidence here. I think that there are far more constructive conversations to be had about this topic rather than the ones currently had. Like sentencing, bail etc, in this country, and supporting other countries where rape victims can actually be prosecuted. I certainly disagree with demonising men, it makes it so much harder for everyone.

mzungu · 13-12-2016 10:54PM

RonFan wrote: »

It's not necessarily that there is more promiscuity happening, though I would be highly skeptical of claims that's so, but rather that promiscuity is being more normalised. The two aren't the same.

We have become a more liberal society and attitudes towards promiscuity have changed to reflect that. Personally, I don't see that as a problem.

RonFan wrote: »

Then why can't the example you gave be included in the minority? Listen, I never intended for this to turn into debating for debating's sake. My original point was that it's a problem that the western psyche as a whole has a schismatic and dis integrative relationship to sexuality, and that this is what is causing the problems inappropriately termed "rape culture". It would be great if we could have more sophisticated discussions on the subject, but it always turns into nonsense about who should stop doing what as if that weren't already obvious and hence irrelevant.

There are probably a lot of clueless people out there in need of sex-ed, I agree there. However, as with my answer above, I don't think this generations acceptance of promiscuity is what leads to rapes. Unfortunately, rapes were happening long before the sexual revolution.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 10:54PM

ivytwine wrote: »

Well I think I said further back in the thread that I don't agree with the term nor that we have a huge incidence here. I think that there are far more constructive conversations to be had about this topic rather than the ones currently had. Like sentencing, bail etc, in this country, and supporting other countries where rape victims can actually be prosecuted. I certainly disagree with demonising men, it makes it so much harder for everyone.

This culture is very much part of it. It's inevitably in a culture that casualises sex that girls will be pressured into the act, and that prostitution will explode as is happening, where women are (NOT as victims) tempted by the pay and have devastating psychological consequences.

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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