How come Tinder is so difficult?

Foxtrol · 08-12-2016 06:51PM

Flimpson wrote: »

Just seeing this now as tis a very busy thread!

Foxtrol, the above use of make-up definitely seems to be borne out of insecurity and people who insist it isn't, seem deluded.

In my case though, I wear minimal eye make-up and lip-liner, and no foundation. And that's it. And only to events, the way everyone gets groomed for events. Not to work, not to the shops, not out walking/running. So I do object to being told that I and others wear make-up purely due to being insecure about my looks, because my relationship with make-up is nothing like that of the women you know.

Now if I was told I can't make eye contact with people when I walk into a room because of insecurity/shyness, then I'd totally agree. I have insecurities like anyone but I don't get the zoning in on make-up for any woman - it depends! Main factors are - amount worn, reasons for wearing it, and how frequently it's worn.

I totally agree with what you say. I don’t think I have (or didn’t mean to anyway) said that all women that wear any level of makeup are insecure but I think it is an extremely taboo subject to discuss (as we can see here).

There are different levels, yours is completely healthy while it veers to the dangerous when it comes to those who literally wont leave the house without it. The last time I (unfortunately) found myself in this discussion here a poster gave an example of a neighbor who fell and broke her hip but wouldn’t let the paramedics come in to help her until someone did her makeup. The poster stated how she had so much respect for the woman because she took such pride in her appearance when to me it was insecurity that risked her health and even her life.

I think the level of defensiveness on the subject here is clear, when we are talking about guys who are short feeling pressure you I cant recall any/many posters come in to say ‘don’t paint all short guys like that’, there was an open discussion and advice provided. However, once makeup is brought up at best posters try to make the issue of insecurity seem like it’s an issue for only a tiny percentage but mostly it is a pure defensive stone wall where even acts of not leaving the house without makeup or wearing so much makeup that they couldn’t be recognized without it are made out to be ok.

zulutango · 08-12-2016 06:54PM

Flimpson wrote: »

Masking insecurity is definitely one of the reasons for wearing (usually a lot of) make-up.
I think people were objecting to the way you were saying earlier that wearing any bit of make-up at all, including just on a night out to dress up (the way nearly everyone dresses up on a night out) was a sign of insecurity.

It is a sign of insecurity. I think people are jumping up on their high horse because nobody likes being told they're insecure and women certainly don't like being told they are insecure about their looks. But they've gone and admitted it now. It's not surprising that they are insecure, given all the pressures on them to look a certain way. It must be awful growing up female these days.

The Talking Bread · 08-12-2016 06:54PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

I totally agree with what you say. I don’t think I have (or didn’t mean to anyway) said that all women that wear any level of makeup are insecure but I think it is an extremely taboo subject to discuss (as we can see here).

There are different levels, yours is completely healthy while it veers to the dangerous when it comes to those who literally wont leave the house without it. The last time I (unfortunately) found myself in this discussion here a poster gave an example of a neighbor who fell and broke her hip but wouldn’t let the paramedics come in to help her until someone did her makeup. The poster stated how she had so much respect for the woman because she took such pride in her appearance when to me it was insecurity that risked her health and even her life.

I think the level of defensiveness on the subject here is clear, when we are talking about guys who are short feeling pressure you I cant recall any/many posters come in to say ‘don’t paint all short guys like that’, there was an open discussion and advice provided. However, once makeup is brought up at best posters try to make the issue of insecurity seem like it’s an issue for only a tiny percentage but mostly it is a pure defensive stone wall where even acts of not leaving the house without makeup or wearing so much makeup that they couldn’t be recognized without it are made out to be ok.

It is one of the most talked about subjects when it comes to women and social presentation! I am not sure you indulge in much media if you think it is a taboo subject!

Men feeling inadequate sexually about their height, now that is a taboo, or more appropriately a very small (sorry, just to lighten the mood, couldn't resist, no offence people!!) discussed subject

zulutango · 08-12-2016 06:55PM

dottie_lottie wrote: »

Noone has denied that some women wear it out of insecurity, we said that people who say ALL women wear makeup out of insecurity are wrong, and we've offered some of the alternative reasons women wear makeup.

Artistic expression is the one of the other reasons offered. Fine.

Looking nicer is another. That's insecurity right there.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 08-12-2016 06:56PM

I don't know is this a serious Venus and Mars situation or not. We all make choices about our appearance all the time, why is makeup such a special case that using it at all has to mean insecurity?

I suppose women are just more used to it? I rarely wear it but it's been in my life for 15 years, like others have said I just see it as part of an outfit, an optional but fun part.

mzungu · 08-12-2016 06:57PM

zulutango wrote: »

Looking nicer is another. That's insecurity right there.

How is that insecurity?

Foxtrol · 08-12-2016 06:58PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

How would you advise him? Noone told him simply to get over it. They advised him why and what ways he should approach the mental predicament he is in.
Avoid the question if you wish.

You really are the pedantic police, aren't you? I’ll try to use your exact terms as much as possible so you cant avoid dealing with my actual response again.

Posters ‘advised’ the guy ‘ways he should approach the mental predicament he is in’ yet the answer to women who have a similar ‘mental predicament’ around what they deem to have a person flaw is not to ‘approach the mental predicament’ it is instead to cover it up with makeup and it’ll be fine.

That is hypocrisy, one answer is a tough one that deals with the root cause of the problem while the other is finding a crutch for the problem by avoiding causing the tough discussion that they have an insecurity that should be faced.

The Talking Bread · 08-12-2016 06:59PM

zulutango wrote: »

Artistic expression is the one of the other reasons offered. Fine.

Looking nicer is another. That's insecurity right there.

Not entirely, no. I will wear my new shirt out at the weekend, not my old one. I will have a shave. Doesn't mean I am in any way insecure about my old shirt or a scruffy beard look.

Just think I will look better.

Goya · 08-12-2016 07:00PM

Crikey the woman who broke her hip! :eek:
What that person said in relation to her just seems fairly stupid.

But Foxtrol, I don't know about other discussions but I think the only reason women got defensive about the make-up thing here was when someone said wearing make-up at all = insecurity. Yet didn't apply this to any other grooming ritual. Very sweeping statements get made regarding women wearing make-up at all - not just ludicrous amounts for ludicrous reasons at ludicrous times.

There is a weird hostility re: make-up, and dishonesty too, like "I find make-up unattractive" as if Mila Kunis and Margot Robbie don't wear it.

I think that hostility is what brings out the defensiveness.

Goya · 08-12-2016 07:03PM

zulutango wrote: »

Artistic expression is the one of the other reasons offered. Fine.

Looking nicer is another. That's insecurity right there.

But a man getting groomed to go out isn't = insecurity?

You haven't answered my question - is getting dressed up in any way, by either sex, for an event a sign of insecurity?

Foxtrol · 08-12-2016 07:05PM

dottie_lottie wrote: »

I'll quote electro bitch for you then...

I know women who are the kind never to be seen without makeup, and of course i've told them(albeit in different words) "to get over it" "noone is actually looking at you" "noone cares what you look like" "you'll ruin your skin with all that" "it's not good for your skin to workout with makeup on"

But at no point in the thread were we discussing what to say to women who wear a lot of makeup out of insecurity, nor did any women come on talking about wearing makeup out of insecurity, that's why noone has brought it up.

A poster did however state that his preference was to women that didn’t wear makeup and he was told many different ways at how his taste was wrong, bringing up many of the explanations/excuses as to why women wear heavy makeup. I found the comparison striking to the responses a few pages later when dealing with guy regarding his height, another area of potential insecurity, so I pointed out this through a question and the conversation took its course.

Foxtrol · 08-12-2016 07:07PM

Amirah Alive Sediment wrote: »

But in the context of this thread those are hypothetical women and real guys. There aren't any women here saying they think how they look without makeup is crippling them romantically, what there are is posters evoking the spirit of those women in order to... I dunno, criticise the advice given? Because they have a whataboutery fetish?

And then women responding from our own perspective, which is all we can do. The explanations being given are very easy to understand.

Are you saying I'm criticizing the advise?

zulutango · 08-12-2016 07:09PM

Flimpson wrote: »

But a man getting groomed to go out isn't = insecurity?

You haven't answered my question - is getting dressed up in any way, by either sex, a sign of insecurity?

Make up is, to a great extent (artistic expression aside), about overcoming flaws and blemishes, changing one's appearance to be 'nicer'. Can we honestly say that is not the case?

It's quite a step up from grooming and wearing particular styles and fashions and conflating the two is a tad disingenuous I think.

The Talking Bread · 08-12-2016 07:14PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

You really are the pedantic police, aren't you? I’ll try to use your exact terms as much as possible so you cant avoid dealing with my actual response again.

Posters ‘advised’ the guy ‘ways he should approach the mental predicament he is in’ yet the answer to women who have a similar ‘mental predicament’ around what they deem to have a person flaw is not to ‘approach the mental predicament’ it is instead to cover it up with makeup and it’ll be fine.

That is hypocrisy, one answer is a tough one that deals with the root cause of the problem while the other is finding a crutch for the problem by avoiding causing the tough discussion that they have an insecurity that should be faced.

Lets not go down a poster v poster route here. If thats the way you want to debate the matter, I am out.

I needed to use the highlighted to clarify what I mean.
Advising someone is a lot friendlier and effective way than telling them.

Also noone is telling/advising women to wear makeup if they are insecure about ageing skin, wrinkles, freckles, achne. That is their proactive means of dealing with it.
Whereas the guys with the height issue were merely wallowing in self pity, begrudgery, no self esteem and stuck in a rut.

They were accepting their height is the issue of this and didnt see any way to mentally overcome this paronia. So no progress.

Whereas women who have insecurities about their skin choose the mainly harmless means of applying makeup to overcome their personal paronia. So they are finding means to overcome these insecurities in a social setting and hence for most of them building confidence and looking past these insecurities. So progress.
Makeup is a fashion accessory anyway also so it is not as if wearing it (in a well applied manner) will make their insecurities stand out.
Whilst a 5 foot 2 guy standing in the corner with no confidence is easy to spot.

Goya · 08-12-2016 07:14PM

zulutango wrote: »

Make up is, to a great extent (artistic expression aside), about overcoming flaws and blemishes, changing one's appearance to be 'nicer'. Can we honestly say that is not the case?

It's quite a step up from grooming and wearing particular styles and fashions and conflating the two is a tad disingenuous I think.

Not disingenuous at all. Certain clothes, shoes and hairstyles are also about looking nicer. You said "looking nicer" was "insecurity right there".

Foxtrol · 08-12-2016 07:14PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

It is one of the most talked about subjects when it comes to women and social presentation! I am not sure you indulge in much media if you think it is a taboo subject!

Men feeling inadequate sexually about their height, now that is a taboo, or more appropriately a very small (sorry, just to lighten the mood, couldn't resist, no offence people!!) discussed subject

Maybe amongst women but I think the use of makeup is a much greater taboo subject for a man to discuss than the height of a man is for a women to discuss.

See here for an example: one was treated as an open discussion where everyone’s opinion was accepted, the other is laced with defensiveness with people’s opinions and preferences are questioned.

To me I’m sure there are a lot of honest discussion amongst women regarding the subject but I feel women quickly close ranks once a man tries to give his opinion.

Triceratops Ballet · 08-12-2016 07:16PM

Foxtrol wrote:

A poster did however state that his preference was to women that didnâ€™t wear makeup and he was told many different ways at how his taste was wrong, bringing up many of the explanations/excuses as to why women wear heavy makeup. I found the comparison striking to the responses a few pages later when dealing with guy regarding his height, another area of potential insecurity, so I pointed out this through a question and the conversation took its course.

No-one said his preference was wrong (I certainly didn't) what people pointed out is that his reasons for not liking women who wear makeup (that they are vacuous and insecure) are massively incorrect generalisations. It was also pointed out as it was to other posters that such specific requirements on a potential partner severely limit the pool you're fishing in

zulutango · 08-12-2016 07:18PM

Flimpson wrote: »

Not disingenuous at all. Certain clothes, shoes and hairstyles are also about looking nicer. You said "looking nicer" was "insecurity right there".

Yeah, but you don't fundamentally change the way you look with grooming and fashions.

Would you say breast augmentation is about insecurity?

The Talking Bread · 08-12-2016 07:20PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

A poster did however state that his preference was to women that didn’t wear makeup and he was told many different ways at how his taste was wrong, bringing up many of the explanations/excuses as to why women wear heavy makeup. I found the comparison striking to the responses a few pages later when dealing with guy regarding his height, another area of potential insecurity, so I pointed out this through a question and the conversation took its course.

nope, the guy solely prejudged women who wear any make up and went to a gym. He made remarks about complete insecurity and him solving their "problem" by getting to the root of it.

He also said he would rule out someone (and the manner in which he generalised all such women is clearly evident) solely because they attend gyms and/or wear makeup.

Bit different. In fact entirely different.

It wasn't the preference people took issue with. It was the generalisation, the mentality prejudging and the downright insults he made about such women that people took issue with.

Goya · 08-12-2016 07:21PM

zulutango wrote: »

Yeah, but you don't fundamentally change the way you look with grooming and fashions.

Would you say breast augmentation is about insecurity?

Yes I would say breast augmentation is about insecurity because it's to do with being unhappy with breast size.

If a woman only wears a tiny bit of make-up, she does not fundamentally change the way she looks. It surely depends on the amount.

It's ludicrous to compare a bit of grooming make-up to clownface.

Olishi4 · 08-12-2016 07:21PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

The last time I (unfortunately) found myself in this discussion here a poster gave an example of a neighbor who fell and broke her hip but wouldn’t let the paramedics come in to help her until someone did her makeup. The poster stated how she had so much respect for the woman because she took such pride in her appearance when to me it was insecurity that risked her health and even her life.
.

You know Foxtrol, though it does sound extreme, a woman I know was telling me about a relation of hers, an aunt I think.

The aunts husband died and later she was telling my friend that when he died, she started thinking "oh my god, I'm gonna have to face people. People are going to be coming to the house. I'm gonna have to get my hair done". She said that she felt so guilty for even thinking like that when she looked back on it and couldn't understand her thought process but she was just in shock and her vulnerability was magnified because she had just lost her husband and she couldn't think straight. Its possible that woman who was hurt might have just been in shock or denial about her injury.

zulutango · 08-12-2016 07:23PM

dottie_lottie wrote: »

No-one said his preference was wrong (I certainly didn't) what people pointed out is that his reasons for not liking women who wear makeup (that they are vacuous and insecure) are massively incorrect generalisations. It was also pointed out as it was to other posters that such specific requirements on a potential partner severely limit the pool you're fishing in

I've been lucky enough to have had relationships with women who were comfortable in their own skins, who didn't feel a need to wear make-up. They weren't insecure about their natural appearance. That is attractive.

The fact that it limits the pool is a different issue. It sure does, but I'm quite ok with that. In any case, foreign women are far less likely to have these insecurity issues and far less likely to be into make-up, and there's plenty of them around.

zulutango · 08-12-2016 07:25PM

Flimpson wrote: »

Yes I would say breast augmentation is about insecurity because it's to do with being unhappy with breast size.

If a woman only wears a tiny bit of make-up, she does not fundamentally change the way she looks. It surely depends on the amount.

It's ludicrous to compare a bit of grooming make-up to clownface.

If it's a tiny bit of make-up then she's obviously not very insecure. That's good!

Triceratops Ballet · 08-12-2016 07:25PM

Foxtrol wrote:

See here for an example: one was treated as an open discussion where everyoneâ€™s opinion was accepted, the other is laced with defensiveness with peopleâ€™s opinions and preferences are questioned.

The opinion that some women, wear makeup out of insecurity is being widely accepted in this thread, it's being accepted because its true. What is not being accepted however is the idea that all women wearing any amount of makeup are insecure and its nothing to do with not wanting to admitting to insecurity, I can give u a list of my insecurities, how I look isnt one of them and yet I occasionally wear makeup

zulutango · 08-12-2016 07:29PM

dottie_lottie wrote: »

The opinion that some women, wear makeup out of insecurity is being widely accepted in this thread, it's being accepted because its true. What is not being accepted however is the idea that all women wearing any amount of makeup are insecure and its nothing to do with not wanting to admitting to insecurity, I can give u a list of my insecurities, how I look isnt one of them and yet I occasionally wear makeup

No, we've established that artistic expression is one of the reasons women might wear make up which isn't related to insecurity.

What proportion of women are in that category though?

Foxtrol · 08-12-2016 07:31PM

Flimpson wrote: »

Crikey the woman who broke her hip! :eek:
What that person said in relation to her just seems fairly stupid.

But Foxtrol, I don't know about other discussions but I think the only reason women got defensive about the make-up thing here was when someone said wearing make-up at all = insecurity. Yet didn't apply this to any other grooming ritual. Very sweeping statements get made regarding women wearing make-up at all - not just ludicrous amounts for ludicrous reasons at ludicrous times.

There is a weird hostility re: make-up, and dishonesty too, like "I find make-up unattractive" as if Mila Kunis and Margot Robbie don't wear it.

I think that hostility is what brings out the defensiveness.

It wasn’t only the post about the women but it followed by complete silence by nearly all of the female posters who were discussing the subject, they couldn’t even accept that that person had insecurity issues.

Well I think there is a difference with make-up past a certain point and general grooming. General grooming doesn’t massively change your appearance or damage yourself financially/mentally/physically, which is the same for low levels of makeup, but once you get passed a certain point where you couldn’t be recognized without it or are spending an more money/time/effort than you can afford then I believe it is down to insecurity.

When there was discussion about short guys I did not see a stream of short guys coming in to post how they have no self confidence issues so the connection of being short and insecure only affects the minority, which is exactly what happened as soon as makeup came up. There isn’t the hostility or defensiveness because men can accept that it might not be the rule for all but it is a problem from a big enough proportion that it is good that it is discussed rather than shot down.

I don’t agree with the make-up and dishonesty, that goes for both sexes. I’ve regularly heard from female friends how they don’t like a guy who is always going/talking about the gym/counting calories etc yet would be drooling about the (insert male actor) in the latest movie showing off his 6 pack.

The Talking Bread · 08-12-2016 07:34PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Maybe amongst women but I think the use of makeup is a much greater taboo subject for a man to discuss than the height of a man is for a women to discuss.

See here for an example: one was treated as an open discussion where everyone’s opinion was accepted, the other is laced with defensiveness with people’s opinions and preferences are questioned.

To me I’m sure there are a lot of honest discussion amongst women regarding the subject but I feel women quickly close ranks once a man tries to give his opinion.

That is probably true to a point. If someone is quite insecure about something they may go on the defensive. But if they are dealing with thee insecurities by wearing a fashion accessory, why begrudge them that proactive coping mechanism. What are you going to say. "Wipe that mascara off and dealo with your insecurities some other ways? Only women without these insecurities who use it solely as a fashion accessory should wear it. You, no. "
I mean if its applied well makeup hardly screams insecurity as 90% of women in a social setting wear same makeup.
Therefore bit is a coping mechanism to these insecurities. It allows them to have a sense of confidence and self esteem.

Whereas the guys with the height issues suggested hopelessness at their height paronia predicament. They can't wear makeup, they can't wear heels to solve this so they needed advice how to take a proactive mental step to cope with it.

I a not saying wearing makeup due to being insecure will rid women of these insecurities entirely, of course not, but it will help them cope.

Whereas "height guy" wasn't doing anything to cope.

Triceratops Ballet · 08-12-2016 07:36PM

Foxtrol wrote:

It wasnâ€™t only the post about the women but it followed by complete silence by nearly all of the female posters who were discussing the subject, they couldnâ€™t even accept that that person had insecurity issues.

No-one commented because its not necessary. That's obviously an unhealthy insecurity ffs

The Talking Bread · 08-12-2016 07:40PM

zulutango wrote: »

No, we've established that artistic expression is one of the reasons women might wear make up which isn't related to insecurity.

What proportion of women are in that category though?

How many do you think? How are you going to point them out? What do you suggest to them? Not to wear it?
What is the point telling someone to wear something that is socially accepted and fashionable?
"I think you are insecure, here is a sponge, wipe it off"

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 08-12-2016 07:41PM

zulutango wrote: »

Make up is, to a great extent (artistic expression aside), about overcoming flaws and blemishes, changing one's appearance to be 'nicer'. Can we honestly say that is not the case?

It's quite a step up from grooming and wearing particular styles and fashions and conflating the two is a tad disingenuous I think.

But why is it different? Why? How is it different to styling your hair or facial hair in a way you think suits you, choosing a certain colour shirt, pants that are flattering?

All these things are done for the same reason, what is the big deal about makeup, what's the essential difference? For the sake of argument take the type of makeup that Cate Blanchett or Jennifer Lawrence would wear (I'm on the phone you'll have to google) not very heavy Kylie Jenner type.

I like my mouth, think it's one of my best features, I'm not even sure what 'flaws' a mouth could have. But I still paint it pink or red when I want to, because I like the way it looks.

If the slightest bit of makeup means insecurity then everything people do to improve their appearance does too. Both those things are obviously ridiculous.

How come Tinder is so difficult?

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