An Post - national infrastructure?

Sam Russell · 06-12-2016 11:10pm #1

Is An Post part of the national infrastructure?

Should it be saved by some form of national subvention?

Should we pay through the nose for postage?

Will raising the price of stamps yet again kill the postage service?

LeinsterDub · 06-12-2016 11:57pm

The it's the heart and soul of rural Ireland brigade will be around shortly.

To answer the question no it's not infrastructure. They should increase the price of the stamp to cover there operations costs, develop other revenue streams and rationalise the network of both offices and boxes

Idbatterim · 07-12-2016 12:22am

why does increasing the price always seem the solution? where is the point of diminishing returns? we are seeing the same now with Bus Eireann and allegedly it also requires attention. Are the staff and pension cost reasonable would be the first thing I would look at...

plodder · 07-12-2016 12:29am

They should be able to set their own prices now though. The monopoly thing is kind of irrelevant given the alternatives that people use noawadays. Probably not going to stem the decline in the flat mail business long term, but might help short/medium. Can see the PSO being gradually dismantled as well. Daily post deliveries to every corner of the land is a luxury that will be harder to justify in future.

Bray Head · 07-12-2016 9:37am

Imagine householders had to install a postbox at the entrance to their property like in many parts of the western world.

This was floated in the 90s I think but was shot down from predictable quarters.

Bray Head · 07-12-2016 9:38am

plodder wrote: »

They should be able to set their own prices now though. The monopoly thing is kind of irrelevant given the alternatives that people use noawadays.

There is an alternative for sending a Christmas card from Cork to Galway? Please do tell.....

seamus · 07-12-2016 9:44am

There are actually a few private postal operators, but they're mostly operating in the cities.

Overall, it's an interesting question. In any case, it's clear that there's a big problem in An Post; mainly that they're poorly positioned to compete against both the other operators in the market and the technologies making them redundant.

They've been very slow to adapt to the changing market and their past form doesn't give me any reason to think this will change. They will continue to fall further behind the curve and the union will do its utmost to resist all change until the day when it needs to shed half its workforce and undergo major restructuring just to break even.

LeinsterDub · 07-12-2016 9:48am

Bray Head wrote: »

There is an alternative for sending a Christmas card from Cork to Galway? Please do tell.....

Email, DHL, Moonpig ..

Bray Head · 07-12-2016 9:52am

seamus wrote: »

They've been very slow to adapt to the changing market and their past form doesn't give me any reason to think this will change. They will continue to fall further behind the curve and the union will do its utmost to resist all change until the day when it needs to shed half its workforce and undergo major restructuring just to break even.

This is dead right. In some countries Parcel-Motel-type operations were set up by the USP itself in secure locations around post offices. This presumably means that the benefit is captured by the USP rather than a third party.

An Post occupy (rent-free by the way) prime retail positions all over the country and have been absolutely dismal at using these for other retail opportunities. You can't even buy an envelope in many post offices which is just bizarre.

I've posted elsewhere that their choice of locations for post boxes doesn't have much of a logical basis, and that they do not even provide a map or list of them on their website.

It is hard to feel sorry for a company with such a poor commercial mentality.

LeinsterDub · 07-12-2016 9:56am

Idbatterim wrote: »

why does increasing the price always seem the solution? where is the point of diminishing returns? we are seeing the same now with Bus Eireann and allegedly it also requires attention. Are the staff and pension cost reasonable would be the first thing I would look at...

An Post and BÉ aren't comparable. BÉ's service hasn't been replaced but An Post's has.

Diminishing returns doesn't apply here the forward march of technology is the issue. Their core business has been gutted by a service that infinitely better and free and they missed the boat of delivering packages. Even if An Post were to allow me to post stuff for free I'd very rarely need their services.

plodder · 07-12-2016 10:11am

Bray Head wrote: »

There is an alternative for sending a Christmas card from Cork to Galway? Please do tell.....

Does anyone care about the Christmas card market? I think it has dropped off in recent years. Remember when people used to send holiday postcards as well? Can't remember the last time I sent or received one.

At one time postal services were considerably more comprehensive than today, with two deliveries per day in a lot of places. I remember hearing the story of a Dublin hospital consultant who would post a card home to his wife every day telling her what time he'd be home at. The telephone killed off that use case. The internet is killing off the remaining use cases for flat post, and even telephony itself is going the same way as a way of earning revenue. These activities are being made obsolete by technology.

I agree with you about An Post in the past, whatever about their attitude today. When I started working in Dublin city centre (years ago) you would actually have to take time off work to buy a stamp, with post offices closed at lunchtime, and not able to buy them anywhere else. Crazy stuff.

Bray Head · 07-12-2016 10:14am

Delivery of flat mail is a natural monopoly. There is a social benefit in having near-universal next-day delivery. This is recognised in the EU legislation. Every member state as a USP. I think there is merit in some subsidisation of the service. Not everyone can (or wants to) live in a city.

That doesn't mean that An Post shouldn't try to be more efficient or commercially minded in places where they could be.

screamer · 07-12-2016 10:23am

Both organisations suffer from overpaid staff and under utilisation of services.
We don't need daily postal services. Every 2nd day would be fine and the staff would need to have their hours cut to match (queue the fecking unions) but that's the reality of it.
As for BE and especially the expressway services problem is that most people need a car to drive to get the bus. A car in rural Ireland is a necessity and with it now so expensive to tax insure and run a car there's no way a car owner will also fork out for a bus ticket and I don't blame them.

seamus · 07-12-2016 10:37am

There might be some benefit in reducing the red tape around sending flat mail. Eliminate stamps and replace it with some kind of self-franking mechanism where a small unique QR code can be printed or otherwise attached to the envelope. Make flat mail completely free provided that it includes one of these codes (so volumes of mail can be monitored for abuse).

Where you've got an octogenerian sending their Xmas cards and still wants to use the post office, they can just go there and get a box full of stickers printed for free with their own QR code on it. Or even have it sent out to them.

There will come a point, if it hasn't come already, that the cumulative cost of handling flat mail outweighs the revenue that stamps are bringing in. It costs money to administer the whole stamping system, from the raw printing to the rental and staffing of post offices. Eliminating stamps and just having the state fund the delivery of flat mail might actually be more cost effective in the long run.

LeinsterDub · 07-12-2016 10:50am

seamus wrote: »

Eliminating stamps and just having the state fund the delivery of flat mail might actually be more cost effective in the long run.

I would hazard a guess the the cost of printing and selling stamps is one of the smallest in the An Post cost base and due to their opening hours most people get stamps from their local shop as opposed to a post office. The biggest cost for An Post is sorting and delivering of mail followed by the cost of Post office's *

* pure guess work but this feels right

LeinsterDub · 07-12-2016 10:51am

Bray Head wrote: »

There is a social benefit in having near-universal next-day delivery.

What is said benefit?

lawred2 · 07-12-2016 10:54am

An Post lost 12m last year

Forgive me for thinking that that's not exactly a huge cost to pay for what is really a very good and reliable public service.

Especially when politicians can magic up billions when it suits to bail out private enterprise that serve little public purpose or serve very few common goods.

Just like Bus Eireann - 6m losses to keep some of our rural towns and villages connected? Sounds ok to me!

Hundreds of millions and tens of billions can be found when it suits certain interests... This is chump change stuff.

And I'm no public sector luvvie either...

Bray Head · 07-12-2016 11:06am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Bray Head wrote: »

There is a social benefit in having near-universal next-day delivery.

What is said benefit?

Social inclusion.

Many people (most of them old) still write letters to each other. It is the same argument (although a bit weaker) for subsidising the TV license for older people.

Many businesses rely on it to a certain extent even still. Certain types of correspondence (in the legal field) demand originals.

Bray Head · 07-12-2016 11:08am

seamus wrote: »

There might be some benefit in reducing the red tape around sending flat mail. Eliminate stamps and replace it with some kind of self-franking mechanism where a small unique QR code can be printed or otherwise attached to the envelope.

This is cool but every so often I buy a bunch of stamps, leave them in the drawer, and put one on whenever I need to post a letter.

I don't want the hassle of printing every time I want to send a letter.

Sam Russell · 07-12-2016 11:10am

An Post, in conjunction with Postbank (Belgium) was set up as a joint venture between An Post and Belgian bank Fortis in early 2007. (In May 2009 French bank BNP Paribas took control of Fortis.) Postbank was closed in 2010, as the joint venture was dissolved.

Postbank was a brilliant service that would suit An Post. It was a deposit taking service, offering good interest rates, and allowed withdrawals on a Saturday, upto quite a large amount without notice. It was beginning to venture into giving credit and debit credit cards, and expanding into a full banking service.

It could be used by Dept of Social Protection for the payment of all their payments and An Post would benefit by retaining the business of social welfare. Many of the functions of Credit Unions could be incorporated into it as well. This would also allow a safer place for bachelor farmers to keep the few bob rather than under the mattress.

The NTMA could be brought into the underwriting of the service and handling the back office functions.

I could never understand why it was just closed down with all the deposits returned. The infrastructure is still in place, I would think.

Could it be restarted?

LeinsterDub · 07-12-2016 11:16am

Bray Head wrote: »

Social inclusion.

Many people (most of them old) still write letters to each other. It is the same argument (although a bit weaker) for subsidising the TV license for older people.

Many businesses rely on it to a certain extent even still. Certain types of correspondence (in the legal field) demand originals.

I like CD's and Laser disks will the government subsidise this outdated technology?

I know no who writes letters. The number of people writing letter is tiny! The number used letters as a vital link to their social peers is smaller again.

Public services money is limited and their comes a time when the needs of the vast majority should be prioritised over the needs of the tiny minority just like LW252.

An Post will still be there for people who refuse or can't modernise they will just have to pay more

lawred2 · 07-12-2016 11:34am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I like CD's and Laser disks will the government subsidise this outdated technology?

I know no who writes letters. The number of people writing letter is tiny! The number used letters as a vital link to their social peers is smaller again.

Public services money is limited and their comes a time when the needs of the vast majority should be prioritised over the needs of the tiny minority just like LW252.

An Post will still be there for people who refuse or can't modernise they will just have to pay more

Businesses use mail extensively

Bray Head · 07-12-2016 11:35am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I know no who writes letters. The number of people writing letter is tiny! The number used letters as a vital link to their social peers is smaller again.

We can all trade anecdotes. I look at evidence.

An Post annual report shows 350 million USO mails in 2015. Yes, it is falling rapidly, but it is still a very large number.

LeinsterDub · 07-12-2016 11:38am

Bray Head wrote: »

We can all trade anecdotes. I look at evidence.

An Post annual report shows 350 million USO mails in 2015. Yes, it is falling rapidly, but it is still a very large number.

You started with the anecdotes. I never said An Post should be done away with just pay it's way.

donspeekinglesh · 07-12-2016 12:18pm

Bray Head wrote: »

This is cool but every so often I buy a bunch of stamps, leave them in the drawer, and put one on whenever I need to post a letter.

I don't want the hassle of printing every time I want to send a letter.

Used to do this, but every time we need to send something the price of stamps has gone up again. Be easier to print.

my3cents · 07-12-2016 2:12pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I would hazard a guess the the cost of printing and selling stamps is one of the smallest in the An Post cost base and due to their opening hours most people get stamps from their local shop as opposed to a post office. The biggest cost for An Post is sorting and delivering of mail followed by the cost of Post office's *

* pure guess work but this feels right

As all post offices are privately owned businesses running from their own premises how do they affect AnPosts running costs?

Sam Russell · 07-12-2016 2:27pm

my3cents wrote: »

As all post offices are privately owned businesses running from their own premises how do they affect An Posts running costs?

The GPO, and many post offices are owned by An Post and are a cost to run. Sorting offices are also owned/rented by An Post and are a cost to run.

Sub-Post Offices are normally run by the proprietor under contract with An Post, so a cost to An Post. When sub post offices run at a loss, they are up for closure.

my3cents · 07-12-2016 2:47pm

I don't think there are many post offices left owned by An Post. Our local one ran for years from what was the An Post sorting office but was kicked out last year and is now a privately run post office in a town center shop. afaik neither the manager or any of the staff work for An Post. I'd hardly call it a sub post office when the county council offices are 200 m down the road.

Bray Head · 07-12-2016 2:50pm

my3cents wrote: »

I don't think there are many post offices left owned by An Post. Our local one ran for years from what was the An Post sorting office but was kicked out last year and is now a privately run post office in a town center shop. afaik neither the manager or any of the staff work for An Post. I'd hardly call it a sub post office when the county council offices are 200 m down the road.

An Post's annual report says they have about 50 post offices under direct management.

Idbatterim · 07-12-2016 5:27pm

An Post lost 12m last year

Forgive me for thinking that that's not exactly a huge cost to pay for what is really a very good and reliable public service.

Especially when politicians can magic up billions when it suits to bail out private enterprise that serve little public purpose or serve very few common goods.

Just like Bus Eireann - 6m losses to keep some of our rural towns and villages connected? Sounds ok to me!

Hundreds of millions and tens of billions can be found when it suits certain interests... This is chump change stuff.

And I'm no public sector luvvie either...

100% its a pittance, you know what though, I don't care! Be it down to poor management or no doubt, ridiculous pay, pensions and perhaps questionable productivity. Tell them they break even and that its.. Let them look at their operations or staff costs... this cloud cuckoo land scenario for one set of workers and another set living in the real world, has to end!

lawred2 · 07-12-2016 8:01pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

100% its a pittance, you know what though, I don't care! Be it down to poor management or no doubt, ridiculous pay, pensions and perhaps questionable productivity. Tell them they break even and that its.. Let them look at their operations or staff costs... this cloud cuckoo land scenario for one set of workers and another set living in the real world, has to end!

How is it not the real world?

That's an overused cliché really.

08-12-2016 2:42am

Bray Head wrote: »

I've posted elsewhere that their choice of locations for post boxes doesn't have much of a logical basis, and that they do not even provide a map or list of them on their website.

I looked for the raw data previously. They cited security concerns, they didn't want people to know where they all were....for the 5 foot boxes.....painted bright green.....that are designed to be seen easily

The mind boggles :rolleyes:

lawred2 wrote: »

Businesses use mail extensively

Everyone used cheap plastic bags too. People got around on horseback. Change can be made

Carawaystick · 08-12-2016 3:56pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I know no who writes letters. The number of people writing letter is tiny! The number used letters as a vital link to their social peers is smaller again.

Do you have a car?
How do you get your motor tax renewal without post?
How do you get your insurance cert?
How do you get your original no claims cert to your new insurer?
If you sell your car, how do you get the vrc to Shannon?

That's just one everyday example of letters to everyday people.

LeinsterDub · 08-12-2016 4:45pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Do you have a car?
How do you get your motor tax renewal without post?
How do you get your insurance cert?
How do you get your original no claims cert to your new insurer?
If you sell your car, how do you get the vrc to Shannon?

That's just one everyday example of letters to everyday people.

Insurance renewal online.
No claims via email.
Motor tax renewal via email

The disks are a once/twice a year examples of pieces of paper I get in the mail I haven't already gotten via email. And both of these disks are on their way out.

plodder · 08-12-2016 7:20pm

Do you really need a next day service for these anyway? I think we are passed the time when the wheels of commerce depended on all post being delivered the next day.

Sam Russell · 09-12-2016 1:06am

The problem is that as the price of the stamp goes up, them the chances of people using it goes down. I think 60c is about the point of decline - currently it is 72c and they are looking at north of 90c. Madness money and will be counter productive.

Idbatterim · 09-12-2016 1:22am

Sam Russell wrote: »

The problem is that as the price of the stamp goes up, them the chances of people using it goes down. I think 60c is about the point of decline - currently it is 72c and they are looking at north of 90c. Madness money and will be counter productive.

yeah it is madness money. Will be interesting to see what happens if it goes up that drastically. Might be time they have to start putting up mail boxes at start of driveway in rural properties ...

Ferrari3600 · 09-12-2016 1:38am

Sam Russell wrote: »

An Post, in conjunction with Postbank (Belgium) was set up as a joint venture between An Post and Belgian bank Fortis in early 2007. (In May 2009 French bank BNP Paribas took control of Fortis.) Postbank was closed in 2010, as the joint venture was dissolved.

Postbank was a brilliant service that would suit An Post. It was a deposit taking service, offering good interest rates, and allowed withdrawals on a Saturday, upto quite a large amount without notice. It was beginning to venture into giving credit and debit credit cards, and expanding into a full banking service.

It could be used by Dept of Social Protection for the payment of all their payments and An Post would benefit by retaining the business of social welfare. Many of the functions of Credit Unions could be incorporated into it as well. This would also allow a safer place for bachelor farmers to keep the few bob rather than under the mattress.

The NTMA could be brought into the underwriting of the service and handling the back office functions.

I could never understand why it was just closed down with all the deposits returned. The infrastructure is still in place, I would think.

Could it be restarted?

My understanding is that the Postbank joint venture was closed down because of the financial crisis.

I was told circa the Lehmann Brothers collapse that there were massive inflows into state sector An Post savings accounts due to the crisis in the Irish banks.

My personal view is that the building society sector should be re-invigorated. We now have no independent building societies in Ireland - none survived the financial crisis. However, in the UK, many of the small building societies that didn't take on risky commercial lending are still in operation.

Ferrari3600 · 09-12-2016 1:50am

I see from media reports that the chief executive of An Post Donal Connell has retired recently.

I think we should all wish him well on his retirement. He will have even more time now for his golf.

LeinsterDub · 09-12-2016 3:05pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The problem is that as the price of the stamp goes up, them the chances of people using it goes down. I think 60c is about the point of decline - currently it is 72c and they are looking at north of 90c. Madness money and will be counter productive.

The price of a stamp has no impact on my and many others decision to use the service. It could be free and I'd still only use it when electronic forms of communication weren't available.

lawred2 · 09-12-2016 3:47pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Everyone used cheap plastic bags too. People got around on horseback. Change can be made

sure - best of luck with getting the banks and legals to change their ways any time soon

seamus · 09-12-2016 4:03pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Do you have a car?
How do you get your motor tax renewal without post?
How do you get your insurance cert?
How do you get your original no claims cert to your new insurer?
If you sell your car, how do you get the vrc to Shannon?

That's just one everyday example of letters to everyday people.

lawred2 wrote: »

sure - best of luck with getting the banks and legals to change their ways any time soon

You'd be surprised how quickly businesses manage to change when there's money on the line.

Banks have stopped sending out statements for the most part. Solicitors don't use an post for important documents.

Insurers have stopped sending out paper documentation, it's print at home now. Tax & insurance discs are outdated, not really necessary anyway. If An Post started restricting the available services, all of these things would start finding ways to work without it. There is no longer any real need for most paper mail; it persists because it exists, so businesses don't bother thinking of ways to do without it until it hits their bottom line.

my3cents · 09-12-2016 4:13pm

Sending letters is very much a thing of the past, but online ordering is growing so An Post need to grow their service so it is more geared towards delivering parcels at a competitive rate.

In rural areas every postman has a van which is for the most part empty when he is driving around so I feel An Post have a competitive advantage over couriers for rural deliveries given that they pass close to almost every rural address every working day of the week. For a courier to call out to me if he has no other nearby deliveries one drop will take him at least 30 minutes off his main run of town deliveries and thats if he knows where I live.

In towns the problem is the opposite and the postman isn't geared up to carry a lot of parcels so thats a problem that needs sorting but there has to be something more that can be made of having your staff visit nearly every address in the country every week.

L1011 · 09-12-2016 6:26pm

I can see less than daily rural deliveries before anything else is changed. They already do Good Friday and more Christmas Saturday deliveries in urban/business dense areas so there is precedent for that.

my3cents · 09-12-2016 6:29pm

L1011 wrote: »

I can see less than daily rural deliveries before anything else is changed. They already do Good Friday and more Christmas Saturday deliveries in urban/business dense areas so there is precedent for that.

Then you either have part time postmen or ones that do more than one run? Is that likely to happen?

L1011 · 09-12-2016 10:49pm

my3cents wrote: »

Then you either have part time postmen or ones that do more than one run? Is that likely to happen?

More than one run. Done abroad.

Skommando · 09-12-2016 11:16pm

I wish people would look at the big picture and the importance for ordinary people (whether they realise it or not)

The local post office is an extremely valuable (in society terms) local resource for the community in any locality, rural or urban, and an extremely valuable network that can be used for the common good by the state. People tend to see the post office as some sort of narrow ranged place that's only for buying stamps and posting letters. That's only a very small proportion of a post offices business these days, and local post offices could be used to a far greater extent for 1001 services for the common good if only there was better management and planning. Beware, once you local post office is closed, it's gone for good.

Sure, either urban or rural, you could hive it all off and close everything locally, from the local shop, to the local pubs and small business, to the local police station, and instead we can just all drive miles in traffic to some massive car park in some faceless super centre owned by some faceless international mega corporations and swipe virtual credit units from our virtual credit cards, tricked into thinking we're just being 'modern' with our every move digitally recorded, observed and tracked, while people are afraid to have a face to face conversation, with a live human being. That hasn't turned out too healthy for communities in other countries like the USA etc. but some people seem hell bent on allowing politicians beholden to the corporations ruin local community, urban and rural alike.

Bray Head · 11-12-2016 8:53am

Skommando wrote: »

Sure, either urban or rural, you could hive it all off and close everything locally, from the local shop, to the local pubs and small business, to the local police station, and instead we can just all drive miles in traffic to some massive car park in some faceless super centre owned by some faceless international mega corporations

Personally I find the arrival of these faceless mega corporations has been fantastic for the Irish consumer in terms of selection and price.

Do you remember how absolutely awful the retail landscape was in small Irish towns c 1995?

Skommando · 11-12-2016 10:28am

Bray Head wrote: »

Personally I find the arrival of these faceless mega corporations has been fantastic for the Irish consumer in terms of selection and price.

Do you remember how absolutely awful the retail landscape was in small Irish towns c 1995?

Mega corps were around long before then.

Why do you think for them to win, the local community must loose ? Do you not think with a little care and good governance both can exist ?

11-12-2016 10:53am

Stand alone Post Offices that are not viable should close. Same services can be offered in a convenience store, many of which already offer most of the services a Post Office does, apart from paying social welfare. If a Post Office was so vital to a community then we wouldn't need any discussion, they would be used and profitable. As a country bumpkin, I would have no problem with post being delivered 3 days a week rather than 5. If people wish to have 5 days post, then they could have the opportunity to hire a post box in or closer to the town and collect their post themselves.

The J Stands for Jay · 11-12-2016 11:31am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Do you have a car?
How do you get your motor tax renewal without post?
How do you get your insurance cert?
How do you get your original no claims cert to your new insurer?
If you sell your car, how do you get the vrc to Shannon?

That's just one everyday example of letters to everyday people.

I would be so happy of all these bits of dead tree were done away with.

An Post - national infrastructure?

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