Should Private Schools be Closed?

maudgonner · 02-12-2016 05:09PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I am fine with my tax money funding education for kids whose parents can't afford to give them a private education. I think free education for all is good for all of society.

I am not fine with my tax money subsidizing education for the kids whose parents are wealthier than I am when poor kids can't avail of it. That's using state money to entrench privilege, not good for all of society.

If parents want to send their kids to a private school, well, OK, but not with my money. Likewise grinds, tutors, exam-prep courses etc.

By your logic then nobody who has a child in public education should be able to buy their child grinds? What about extra textbooks? What about letting them have a laptop? Going on educational trips?

The conclusion is that no child in publicly funded education should have any extra educational resources than what the state provides. Which is ridiculous.

josha1 · 02-12-2016 05:10PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I am not trying to save the state money here. The way to do that is to abolish free education altogether.

I am saying that if my tax money is spent on it, then everyone gets to use it. If you want a school that keeps out the poors, pay for it yourself, don't ask me to.

If this new "free education" policy costs more because it is fair and free to all, well, of course it does.

I'm not trying to say you were. But you seem/seemed to think that part of your money is going towards 'entrenching privilege', when it is quite clearly the other way around.

Could you clarify what this means :
If this new "free education" policy costs more because it is fair and free to all, well, of course it does.

seamus · 02-12-2016 05:11PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I am not trying to save the state money here. The way to do that is to abolish free education altogether.

I am saying that if my tax money is spent on it, then everyone gets to use it. If you want a school that keeps out the poors, pay for it yourself, don't ask me to.

If this new "free education" policy costs more because it is fair and free to all, well, of course it does.

OK, but what will you achieve in reality?

A box-ticking exercise where you can say that you have the illusion of a egalitarian education system?

Geuze · 02-12-2016 05:12PM

Water John wrote: »

I suspect the OP really meant, fee paying schools.

Yes.

Practically all national schools in Ireland are private.

Most secondary schools are also private.

VEC/ETB schools are state-owned.

Zubeneschamali · 02-12-2016 05:13PM

maudgonner wrote: »

By your logic then nobody who has a child in public education should be able to buy their child grinds? What about extra textbooks? What about letting them have a laptop? Going on educational trips?

Not at all. Spend your own money on grinds if you like. Pre-exam prep courses. Private tutors. I have no issues with you spending your money how you like.

But you shouldn't get to spend MY money on any of that stuff.

ted1 · 02-12-2016 05:15PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I am fine with my tax money funding education for kids whose parents can't afford to give them a private education. I think free education for all is good for all of society.

I am not fine with my tax money subsidizing education for the kids whose parents are wealthier than I am when poor kids can't avail of it. That's using state money to entrench privilege, not good for all of society.

If parents want to send their kids to a private school, well, OK, but not with my money. Likewise grinds, tutors, exam-prep courses etc.

Who is it your money? The kids parents pay taxes too and more than likely if they are paying a couple of k for fees they are paying more taxes than you.

nice_guy80 · 02-12-2016 05:15PM

ted1 wrote: »

Semi private schools already receive less funding than public schools.

Don't forget that there is no tax relief on school fees. So if the fees are 5k a the state is pulling in an extra 4.5k in taxes so it's costing the parent 9.5 k a year.

but they do get fees from parents
it makes up the shortfall, and more

secondary schools get €170 per pupil from the department to run the school and provide services and facilities

private schools charge thousands

nice_guy80 · 02-12-2016 05:18PM

Many gaelscoils down the country actually take a lot of children from disadvantaged backgrounds and foreign background families

don't presume they all draw pupils from a certain cohort of society

Bridge93 · 02-12-2016 05:18PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I am not trying to save the state money here. The way to do that is to abolish free education altogether.

I am saying that if my tax money is spent on it, then everyone gets to use it. If you want a school that keeps out the poors, pay for it yourself, don't ask me to.

If this new "free education" policy costs more because it is fair and free to all, well, of course it does.

THE taxes all the parents past and present at fee paying schools will largely cover their reduced share of the state kitty. Your taxes aren't paying to send some to private school. You're covering the 50% of the population who aren't in the tax bracket

nice_guy80 · 02-12-2016 05:19PM

Bridge93 wrote: »

THE taxes all the parents past and present at fee paying schools will largely cover their reduced share of the state kitty. Your taxes aren't paying to send some to private school. You're covering the 50% of the population who aren't in the tax bracket

the state pays for the teaching staff though
so technically, they are

Bridge93 · 02-12-2016 05:19PM

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Many gaelscoils down the country actually take a lot of children from disadvantaged backgrounds and foreign background families

don't presume they all draw pupils from a certain cohort of society

And so do fee paying schools. My initial comment was in reply to you suggesting they don't.

ted1 · 02-12-2016 05:20PM

Bridge93 wrote: »

gaelscoils have next to no kids with learning difficulties due to the academic requirements. Are they exclusive?

That is utter rubbish, what are these mythical academic requirements? If a kid went to a primary gaelscoil they speak Irish and that's it. It's no different than them going to an English speaking secondary school if they went to an English language primary school.

I know of two kids with Down syndrome who attend Gael scoil

Zubeneschamali · 02-12-2016 05:21PM

seamus wrote: »

OK, but what will you achieve in reality?

A box-ticking exercise where you can say that you have the illusion of a egalitarian education system?

No, a much more egalitarian system in practice.

If the Department announced today that next academic year, all schools in receipt of Department funding for teachers must accept all children free just as Primary schools do, the existing fee-paying schools would almost all join the free scheme, just as most did when it was set up. The fees they charge aren't nearly enough to run their schools, and most parents could not possibly afford to pay that cost.

There would be Blackrock, the Institute and a couple of other fee paying schools left in September. Good luck to them. Everyone else would be in a free school open to all.

ted1 · 02-12-2016 05:22PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, horribly exclusive. No travellers, immigrants, asylum seekers, kids with learning difficulties... perfect for the "I'm not a racist, but..." crowd.

Theres kids whose parents are from Poland , Australia and Asia in my kids schools. A few tanned kids in some of the classes I imagine that they are originally from Africa

dotsman · 02-12-2016 05:24PM

Augeo wrote: »

Voluntary secondary schools, or just "secondary schools", are owned and managed by religious communities or private organisations. The state funds 90% of teachers' salaries and 95% of other costs. Such schools cater for 57% of secondary pupils.

57% of schools are voluntary schools.
Of that some are private.

No, they are all private - they are not owned by the state, they are privately owned. Some are fee-paying, some are not. in many cases, the same religious body will operate both fee-paying and non-fee-paying schools. Some of the fees collected from the fee-paying schools ultimately are used to fund the non-fee-paying ones.

maudgonner · 02-12-2016 05:24PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Not at all. Spend your own money on grinds if you like. Pre-exam prep courses. Private tutors. I have no issues with you spending your money how you like.

But you shouldn't get to spend MY money on any of that stuff.

But what's the difference in that and a fee-paying school spending the extra money paid by parents to employ extra teaching resources & buy extra equipment?

ted1 · 02-12-2016 05:25PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I am not trying to save the state money here. The way to do that is to abolish free education altogether.

I am saying that if my tax money is spent on it, then everyone gets to use it. If you want a school that keeps out the poors, pay for it yourself, don't ask me to.

If this new "free education" policy costs more because it is fair and free to all, well, of course it does.

If you are worried about spending your taxes on others, look the other way, there is loads of kids in schools whose parents don't pay any tax.

Zubeneschamali · 02-12-2016 05:25PM

ted1 wrote: »

Who is it your money? The kids parents pay taxes too and more than likely if they are paying a couple of k for fees they are paying more taxes than you.

Well, no, I can afford a few k in school fees, I just happen to live outside Dublin, and the fee-paying school racket is not so prevalent here. If I lived in Dublin, I'd probably send my kids to a fee paying school myself - I don't blame the parents for how the system operates.

But we should still fix the system.

josha1 · 02-12-2016 05:27PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No, a much more egalitarian system in practice.

If the Department announced today that next academic year, all schools in receipt of Department funding for teachers must accept all children free just as Primary schools do, the existing fee-paying schools would almost all join the free scheme, just as most did when it was set up. The fees they charge aren't nearly enough to run their schools, and most parents could not possibly afford to pay that cost.

There would be Blackrock, the Institute and a couple of other fee paying schools left in September. Good luck to them. Everyone else would be in a free school open to all.

So you do think that parents of those in private schools should fully pay for those in public schools, while no reaping any benefit at all (not even half the benefit as is currently the case.) Stating that taxes should be demanded and then spent in such a way only serves to highlight the chip on your shoulder, as well as the fact that you don't seem to understand the meaning of the word 'equality', which you keep on using.

Like another poster said, if an apartment block's residents hired a private security guard, should they still be entitled to protection from the guardaí? Of course they should!

Bridge93 · 02-12-2016 05:27PM

ted1 wrote: »

That is utter rubbish, what are these mythical academic requirements? If a kid went to a primary gaelscoil they speak Irish and that's it. It's no different than them going to an English speaking secondary school if they went to an English language primary school.

I know of two kids with Down syndrome who attend Gael scoil

Apologies if I have it wrong I'm going off the one at the top of my road. My comment was that fee schools are no more exclusive than gaelscoils where can't rock up in first year with regular levels of Irish and hope to get in. You have to be proficient in the language be that from going to an Irish primary or other means. That is the requirement I am talking about
As such it is no surprise that when the kids show a proficiency in a language it is likely they will excel at other subjects.

Zubeneschamali · 02-12-2016 05:31PM

maudgonner wrote: »

But what's the difference in that and a fee-paying school spending the extra money paid by parents to employ extra teaching resources & buy extra equipment?

Hey, if you think there's no difference, you won't mind when we abolish fees!

But of course there is a difference - the fee-paying schools are using tax subsidies to deepen class differences in society. The fees are not just there to fund the rugby program - they are there to keep the wrong sort out.

And this concentrates the "wrong sort" in the free system, further motivating parents to pay to get their kids out of it. We end up with a fee-paying system and a ghetto.

evolving_doors · 02-12-2016 05:31PM

The school in question isn't a private school.
Thread fail.

Zubeneschamali · 02-12-2016 05:35PM

josha1 wrote: »

if an apartment block's residents hired a private security guard, should they still be entitled to protection from the guardaí? Of course they should!

Sure. I just don't like that they get my tax money to subsidize their private security.

To make it like the guards, we need my model: taxes pay for the free system, like the guards. Everyone can use them. If you want private security, you pay for it yourself, my taxes don't.

ted1 · 02-12-2016 05:37PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

The school in question isn't a private school.
Thread fail.

Its a semi private school, very very few private schools.

Day Fees 6,895 euro a year
5 day boarding 14,275 euro a year
7 day boarding 15,580 a year

Bridge93 · 02-12-2016 05:38PM

I can only think of one fully private school in the Republic of the top of my head

Zubeneschamali · 02-12-2016 05:38PM

Bridge93 wrote: »

As such it is no surprise that when the kids show a proficiency in a language it is likely they will excel at other subjects.

Proficiency in that particular language also means that they are somewhat paler and less, shall we say, culturally migratory than average.

maudgonner · 02-12-2016 05:39PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Sure. I just don't like that they get my tax money to subsidize their private security.

To make it like the guards, we need my model: taxes pay for the free system, like the guards. Everyone can use them. If you want private security, you pay for it yourself, my taxes don't.

The point is that if you pay for private security you get the protection of that as well as the protection of the Gardaí. And why not, you're paying for both.

ted1 · 02-12-2016 05:41PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Proficiency in that particular language also means that they are somewhat paler and less, shall we say, culturally migratory than average.

You'd be surprised.

Like most established schools in the state there are waiting lists to get in, most kids have the names down from the week they are born.

Nothing to do with racism. Just to do with wanting to get in and putting your kids names down early

Zubeneschamali · 02-12-2016 05:46PM

maudgonner wrote: »

The point is that if you pay for private security you get the protection of that as well as the protection of the Gardaí. And why not, you're paying for both.

Yes, and after you leave the free school, you can go and get grinds or tutoring.

But that isn't what you want - you want to take tax money that should go to the guards, free to all, and spend it on subsidizing private security so that you don't have to use the guards.

And then say hey, if we weren't paying half the cost of this security guard, the Garda would have to pay for a whole guard!

Well yes, but then he would work for us all - not just you.

josha1 · 02-12-2016 05:46PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Sure. I just don't like that they get my tax money to subsidize their private security.

To make it like the guards, we need my model: taxes pay for the free system, like the guards. Everyone can use them. If you want private security, you pay for it yourself, my taxes don't.

Ok, maybe I should translate it directly, since you don't seem to be very good at hypotheticals.

Private security = funding for SEN, extra teachers, rugby, maintenance etc. Directly paid for by parents in private schools for their own children. In the case of the apartments, it would be paid for directly by the apartment residents, specifically for the apartment residents.

Guards = basic core teachers, that everyone is entitled to. The government pays for these out of the tax pool for both sets of schools, while paying for a lot more, just for public schools.

Your money is in no way going to the private guard/'extras' provided in private schools.

Should Private Schools be Closed?

Comments