Food aggression/obsession

24-11-2016 1:06pm #1

Hi everyone!

So just a week ago my mam got a 9 week old border collie puppy! Cutest thing you've ever seen and an absolute credit to her foster mam, very healthy, happy and confident.
We are all totally besotted with her. I'm over visiting everyday for the cuddles and she's getting along brilliant. Has settled in great with mams 2 other dogs and has met one of mine and they are all friends already.
She has all the usual puppy stuff going on .. chewing, toileting, nipping but she had already come on in leaps and bounds in her foster home and my parents are just continuing that work. With someone home with her all of the time it's plain sailing tbh and she's so clever and already knows so much they are spoiled with her.
However she has one 'quirk' we're a little concerned about. She is obsessed by food. Now a bit of obsession is a good thing because there is no trick or command she wouldn't learn for a crumb of bread! But it's a bit worrying because if there is food on the go she will snap at any other dog in the vicinity even if they aren't looking for the food themselves.
Now this could be if my brother is eating a sandwich with no intention of giving anything to them she will still snap at all other dogs (in a surprisingly nasty way for such a little thing). Thus far the other dogs have only flinched away from her and not reacted , they seem to understand she's only a baby. The problem is we don't want anyone getting hurt but if we separate her she completely loses it. I've never seen anything like it. If you put her in another room, her crate, outside, your arms doesn't matter she starts hurling herself around.. will fling herself at doors while as good as screaming for example.
We can't lock the rest of the dogs outside every single time someone in the house opens a pack of crisps but if this sweet little cuddle monster so much as hears a crunch somewhere she completely loses herself. I think mainly we're just worried about her hurting herself and trying to figure out the best way to deal with it.
Is she likely to stop once she's settled in a bit.. she's only here a week after all and maybe she's not convinced yet that we'll always feed her or that the other dogs aren't out to steal her food.
I suppose we're afraid if we just ignore it now while she's learning her way it might just get worse.
We want to make sure we deal with this the right way. This worry about food is clearly very stressful for her so I'm asking the good people of API for suggestions on how best to resolve this.

Thanks all!

Ps She was in foster with 5 other dogs so she is used to other dogs being around and getting fed also.

Evac101 · 24-11-2016 1:59pm

To combat this type of behaviour with our Dalmation we spent quite a bit of time playing the 'take away the food, wait, return the food' game with her. We would also feed the other dogs during this game, correcting any of the dogs that got too concerned with someone else's food. With humans, we gone to the point that if a dog is getting 'human' food, that it always goes into a dogs bowl first, to remove the expectation of food coming directly from us to them. Now the dogs wait by the bowls in the hope of treats rather than give us 'the stare' or the mournful look. As with anything training related this is a constant work in progress, but it's seeming to go well so far (5 years so far) so I feel comfortable offering the advice.

DBB · 24-11-2016 2:13pm

This will certainly get worse. No doubt about it.
First of all, how often is she being fed, and how much? Just need to make sure she's feeling full and satiated as much as possible, which is a personal rule for me anyway when it comes to pups! I know full well she's being fed well with your mam, but it might be possible to tweak things a bit

Is there any reason from her background that you feel she is so protective with food? Did she come from a big litter? Is there a question mark as to whether she was fed enough? Was she fed from the same bowl as her littermates? Was she wormed regularly? Was/is she thin in herself?

You will have to start invoking some rules BB... Putting her in a crate or another room is one way of doing things, but it does not address the issue, merely avoids it.
She could do with learning to go to her bed on cue. That's where she has to be when anyone is eating anything... This is easy enough to practice outside of formal eating times. Food comes out, pup goes to her bed. Then she gets some food!
If she jumps out of bed, put her straight back in, calmly. You may have to do this a lot at first, but if you set out the rules that going to bed = food, jumping out of bed = no food, as a bright little thing, she'll cop it quickly enough. Gradually but quickly build up duration. You may find it easier to just have a bit of string or a lead attached to her collar so that you can move her about without having to manhandle her, but always take anything like this off her if she's not being supervised.
I have a pup here a little older than her, who when she hears the rattle of food literally dives into her bed (which is in a playpen, for now). I just set up a habit... Food comes out, you'll get it if you go to bed

I would be inclined to put her on a Time Out if she has a go at the other dogs... Again, I'd recommend you have a lead attached to her. If she has a snap, she gets a verbal warning, and she's quietly put into a separate area... If being alone is too stressful for her, she can stay in the room, just close the door on her lead so she can't move away from the door... For 20-30 seconds. Once the time is up, as long as she's calm, release her.
Gradually, I'd be inclined to teach her to work with the other dogs to get food. So... Teach her to sit. Reward her. Get another quiet dog. Ask the two if them to sit. Treat both. If she makes a move to grab the food, quickly withdraw the treat... Have someone hold her on-lead for the first while so that she can't get too grabby or physical, just until she learns that she's gotta keep her nose to herself and await the treat, and allow other dogs to be fed around her. Alternate the dogs, and gradually build them up into a group.
Jean Donaldson has a good book called "Mine! An Owner's Guide to Resource Guarding" which, although a bit heavy on detail, is a nice book for owners dealing with resource guarding aimed at humans and at other dogs.

Having someone with her all the time is great, but do get her used to short periods of solitude, or you could have a whole other set of problems coming down the track!

Cherry Blossom · 24-11-2016 2:18pm

It sounds like the litter was all fed from one big bowl. I won't say what I'd do as there are people better qualified to do that here. I wouldn't be attempting to take her food away from her though and I doubt the issue will go away without cooperation from everyone in the house. Do the dogs all have their own food bowls and do any of them try to eat from someone else's? How many times a day is the pup being fed?

24-11-2016 2:56pm

Thanks for the replies.

I'll answer some questions:

How often and how much is she fed?
She's fed 4 times a day as this is what her foster mam was doing. When we asked how much, she didn't offer a particular weight or anything so I guess as much as she needed and my mam has been following this for now. I'm not sure exactly how much she's getting and I'm not sure how you'd know when she's full because she's so greedy. But she is certainly not thin she's a fat little thing.

Any reason or background for being protective? Big litter, fed enough, eating from same bowl?
Well we don't know anything about her litter as she is a rescue. She was found at about 4/5 weeks old on her own, with some bites on her body. She was 1kg when she went into foster and I think is 4 or 5 kg now. Her foster mam mentioned she loves food and put this down to her being separated from her mother so young.

She got her wormings in foster too. So she's up to date on that and definitely no issues putting on weight.

So all my mams dogs (and mine when they eat there) have their own bowls and no one tries to eat from anyone else's but they do go around licking each others after everyone is finished eating.

The go to bed on cue is a great idea. Her bed is in her crate and the door is left open all day and whenever she's tired she goes in herself for a nap. She brings her little toys in there sometimes too for a little play by herself so she seems happy out with her crate and bed. Also my mam puts her in it when they are eating dinner. The crate is just inside the kitchen door and the dining table is just the other side of the door and she leaves the door open. At this time she is totally calm in her bed. She can't actually see the table but she hear everything and smell everything so I don't know why it works then (maybe conincides with a time of the day when shes wrecked tired) but if there's any snacking she wont go into bed and starts her stressing or even anyone just wandering around the kitchen and she's on edge before food even comes out. Trying to make her food or the rest of the dogs food is obviously the very worst time and seeing them out when she's in doesn't help so that might make it hard to get her to go in voluntarily.

As for 30 second time outs .. this is something we've always used with the other dogs for bold behaviour and it works so well. We've always waited until they've calmed to let them out as we didn't want to reinforce barking or whining leads to freedom. I'm concerned that she doesn't calm she keeps up a constant stream of barking whining screaming jumping and we have to be on the ball on let her out the second she stops for a breath! Hate having to leave it more than the half minute because then she starts to forget what it was all about.

Teaching her to sit with another calm dog will be easy. I'll start doing this with my dog as she's super calm and will wait for her treat if I have to take the pups away and back again waiting for her to sit for it and not snap or try to grab.

And finally having someone with her all the time could cause other problems down the line. This is something we've been thinking about ourselves. We have a bit of a problem in that my grandmother lives with my parents and has very advanced alzheimer's. Somebody has to be with her all the time and she gets very stressed leaving the home which leads to other complications so it's very rare. This means one of us makes sure to be there at all times so it's a tricky one. I guess giving her time alone in other parts of the house and outside isn't the same really?

Ms Doubtfire1 · 25-11-2016 9:45am

The food aggression most likely stems from the time she had to fend for herself-and probably has been bitten in the process.She also - very obviously was away from Mum wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too early and that always causes issues.
It will take a while to get the food protection/aggression out a long time.Frankly, I would just feed her on her own and leave her alone until she has finished her food.Than take the bowl away , put a little treat in it and let her eat that while you hold the bowl IF you can do that without being bitten. If not, leave her be.She will learn over time that food will always be there and that she will not ever have to starve again. Don't force the issue, she is still very very young.

tk123 · 25-11-2016 10:35am

You need to go SLOWLY and carefully with resource guarding. Bailey will guard in certain circumstances - most recently a dead bird in the river (my friend nearly DIED) which I did let him have because it wasn't safe for me to try and win him over at the edge of the river where I could fall in if he ran past me- choose your battles and all that. No putting hands in bowls or taking the bowl away - you need to work at the pup's pace so she gets used to the fact that you and eventually the other dogs aren't going to take her food away. As you've noticed they'll let her away with murder because she's a baby - Bailey was and still is the same.

I think with any pup mealtime excitement is normal lol but when Lucy was little she didn't get her bowl until she was sitting calmly then straight into her crate - to stop her eating hers AND Bailey's food. I think I put her out twice ever for a few seconds - she came in looking sorry for herself and sat with big bro waiting for her bowl lol!

DBB · 25-11-2016 10:50am

BB, can you clarify, is she showing any aggression towards humans in the presence of food? I got that it was just t'other dogs.
In any case, it's good practice to give her a small bit of food at mealtimes, holding back most of the food. As she finishes one handful of food, throw another handful into her bowl, so that you split each meal into maybe 7 or 8 portions.
You should notice her starting to look up for you as she finishes each portion, probably with a wag of her tail.
Now, start approaching her from different distances and directions to pour each portion into her bowl.
This just sets up the dog for welcoming humans around her as she eats.
You can push this on a bit by having someone else bring another dog into the room before you pour not just food, but something utterly delicious into her bowl. Limit it to an appearance by the other dog at a distance at first, gradually moving on to the other dog moving around and closer to pup... Keep pup on a lead for this.

tk123 · 25-11-2016 10:59am

DBB wrote: »

BB, can you clarify, is she showing any aggression towards humans in the presence of food? I got that it was just t'other dogs.

No I think you're right apologies - I just read over the OP again!

25-11-2016 12:02pm

To clarify I wouldn't say she's 'aggressive' with people. When I said I didn't want anyone getting hurt I meant her or the other dogs.

She does get so worked up around food that people become an obstacle to her and a bit of a threat. My dad walked over close to her while she was eating to see how she'd react but didn't get too close or lean into her or anything. She did a funny thing where she made herself as wide as could over her bowl and ate as fast as she could. My mam didn't like this either because she wants the pup trust her and know that she means more food not less. I think the adding portions as she goes is a good idea to help the puppy see that for herself.

She's definitely aggressive with the other dogs ONLY over food.

She's just obsessed the poor little thing. It'll lead to terrible stress. The day we brought her home, my mam had the carcass of a chicken inside the oven with the oven door closed, waiting to be used for stock. The pup wasn't in the door 2 minutes and she'd sniffed it out and was up on her hind legs desperately trying to figure out how to open the oven. None of the other dogs had copped it or cared but she notices every food related thing in the house. Her first time outside, within seconds, she found an apple that had fallen out of the bin!

It's hard to explain really. My dog is on steroids and they give her an awful hunger. She lives for the moments she managed to steal some of the cats food. She's food driven but it's absolutely nothing.. I mean NOTHING compared to the way this pup is.

25-11-2016 12:14pm

Can only get her pic when she's sleeping otherwise she's a blur!

And there she is trying to find a way into the chicken carcass!

DBB · 25-11-2016 12:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

She did a funny thing where she made herself as wide as could over her bowl and ate as fast as she could. My mam didn't like this either because she wants the pup trust her and know that she means more food not less.

This is resource guarding aimed at humans, and your mam is right to be concerned, because this can escalate very easily as the dog gets bigger and bolder. Get going with those food bowl exercises right now, and don't let a single mealtime go past without doing them.... 4 meals per day, 7-8 reps per meal, means 28-36 reps per day.
To be honest, I'd just have a little question mark over a potential underlying medical issue here BB... I mean, there's hungry and there's HUNGRY. I'd be inclined to have a chat with the vet when she's in for her vaxes and see what he/she thinks.

25-11-2016 12:43pm

DBB wrote: »

This is resource guarding aimed at humans, and your mam is right to be concerned, because this can escalate very easily as the dog gets bigger and bolder. Get going with those food bowl exercises right now, and don't let a single mealtime go past without doing them.... 4 meals per day, 7-8 reps per meal, means 28-36 reps per day.
To be honest, I'd just have a little question mark over a potential underlying medical issue here BB... I mean, there's hungry and there's HUNGRY. I'd be inclined to have a chat with the vet when she's in for her vaxes and see what he/she thinks.

Thanks DBB. I'll be over with my mam in a couple of hours and going to go through it all with her and make a little plan.
She really is a lovely well mannered, affectionate and exceptionally clever pup so would hate to see this get worse for her.
Shes up to date on all her vaxes, microchipped the whole hog and the rescue provided vet receipts etc. But I'll be in the vets on Monday with my girl and my mam had already decided to come along to let the puppy meet the vets without any scary injections or anything so we'll get our man to take a look at her then.

30-11-2016 3:16pm

Hi all.

A quick update for anyone interested.

We've all been getting her to sit quietly with the other dogs when we give her a sweet. Originally in this scenario she would snap at the others or try to grab their sweet before it reached their mouths. Persistence in not letting her have hers unless her bum is firmly on the ground and she waits her turn and there's little to no issues with this now.

We've also been sending her into her bed when we're making snacks for ourselves and only giving her bits if she's in there. Now she's nowhere near to voluntarily going in without being told but all you have to do is say 'into bed' and even with the other dogs hanging around the food prep area she still heads over to her own bed and waits (unless you take too long) for her own little scrap!

When it comes to her own food being made she's as frantic and possessive as ever but I think this will get better over time as she becomes more easy around them all with other food on the go. Her own food is clearly special to her and she still can't control her emotions when the bag comes out. But she's being fed that alone for now while we work on her resource guarding with people.

So my mum has been dividing each meal into three portions (so 3 portions at each meal, 4 meals a day) and she's definitely not feeling half as uneasy having someone standing beside her because she knows they're waiting to give her more food not take away existing food. She still eats very fast but isn't covering the bowl or anything like that. We haven't progressed to bringing another dog in while she's eating we want to make sure she's confident with us there first.

So I think overall she's learning incredibly fast! I don't think there's anything she couldn't learn. She's so sharp!

As for taking her to the vet for a look over..
Well we noticed she was drinking her own pee. All the dogs my family has had over the last few decades and we've never had a pup drink their own pee (eat their own poo sure! But never drink pee) so we were worried about diabetes or something, however unlikely, so the vet did full bloods and rang today and said everything looked good but wants a urine sample. So mum will be dropping one into them later in the week.
She got a full going over by the vet as well who thought she seemed to be in the best of health.

Anyone any ideas on the pee thing?

Anyway really really pleased with how she's coming on. She's a star pupil.

DBB · 01-12-2016 7:42pm

Bloody hell BB, that's brilliant progress! Well done to you and everyone involved

It is soooo much easier to address these issues as early as possible. Luckily she was fairly obvious in showing you she was feeling uncomfortable about the other dogs being near her with food around, but the behaviour aimed at people was a lot more subtle, and could easily have gone unnoticed or cast off as something she'd grow out of. They rarely do. In fact, they get more and more guardy, and the more rehearsals they do, the more entrenched it gets. So, the fact that you're addressing this so early should really stand to you, and it's a hell of a lot easier with a pup than an adult!
The pee drinking, if the vet finds no issue with her urine, could be a behavioural thing related to boredom. NOT boredom in her new home I hasten to add, but I am very strongly of the opinion that pups who eat their own poop, and drink their own pee (not nearly as common) were living from birth in a yard that just wasn't cleaned up enough... the poop and pee become something to play with, something to do in the absence of anything else. I'd also think that if a source of water wasn't a reliable commodity, or if pups are being bullied off water bowls by other pups or adults, well... if you're thirsty enough...

How did it go with the vet today?

tk123 · 01-12-2016 8:01pm

The pee drinking made me think of previous post - I think it was ShaShaBear's poor Opie that was eating poo when he came to her and it turned out he was punished for having accidents in the house by fosterer who had him before her?

21-01-2017 9:19pm

This post is way overdue. Sorry about that.

Well the vet found no issues with the urine sample. However a couple of days after that she started peeing almost non stop. My mum was cleaning up pee every ten minutes. She was almost house trained but having accidents and all of a sudden she was peeing practically non stop and at some points wandering around with urine pouring out of her.

My mum got a real fright so brought her into the vet who did a scan but couldn't find anything. She did say she'd like to scan her again when she's more mature.
Thankfully it seemed to be a one off and there hasn't been another day like that.

She didn't actually stop drinking her own urine but she did stop having accidents in the house and can't exactly lap it up off the grass so it came to an end that way. I'm inclined to agree with dbb and tk that something in her past was influencing this. Perhaps not having enough water, enough interaction or the wrong kind of interaction. Although we visited the foster twice and I really don't think it was there but something before that which she probably couldn't remember but some instinct was still telling her to drink all and any available water.

She eats now with the other dogs every day and there's no issues at all really. When my dog's are around that's five of them eating together and she's extremely good. She still eats her food very VERY fast but out of greed rather than fear. We'll get her a slow feeder bowl when she's a little bit bigger. Have one for my dog and it works a treat.

She's learning little tricks. She's a real eager student. My mum hasn't actively lead trained her , but my mum's whippet walks so well on the lead that the pup just started copying her and they walk really nicely together.

Everyone wants to rub her and talk to her when she's out and about, human and canine, so she's getting loads of socialisation.

She's really big now and very sturdy but she'll still throw herself onto your lap and put her nose under your chin for a really good cuddle.

She's actually suspiciously good. Doesn't really do anything bold.. what age are they when they hit the naughty stage? She must have a store of badness building up inside her because she's a pure angel at the moment.

Food aggression/obsession

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