What the hell is wrong with the Unions in this Country ??

Smart Bug · 18-11-2016 03:46PM

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

What absolute unadulterated bolloxollogy.

http://ftp.iza.org/dp8239.pdf

Tiny part of a large body of evidence to support this theory. I recommend you to look it up before you dismiss out of hand.

NIMAN · 18-11-2016 03:49PM

This country has really changed over the last decade or so.

Its all entitlement, me me me, greed, forget about the greater good, I'm alright Jack.

Fuelled by the likes of the bearded ones, on their massive salaries and pensions.

18-11-2016 03:52PM

riclad wrote: »

Just google top level civil servants pensions,
its crazy what they get

I couldn't agree more. Breathtaking, really. Irish people do seem oblivious to how massive the pensions of top public/civil servant are. I'm not talking about the much maligned ordinary teacher/garda here. It's extraordinary. John Bruton has been on his pension since he was 34 years old in 1982. 1982. That's 34 years ago. And he was only 34 years old when he first received his massive public pension. 34, not 64. Last year that single pension for one single year was €141,000. One year. He also gets several other public pensions, such as his EU one. Sickening stuff yet not once has anybody stood up in public and said we can get billions back by changing the contracts which granted these pensions (just as the state in effect unilaterally changed the contracts governing public service workers).

It's way past time for this state to bully the John Brutons out of their obscene sycophancy on Irish taxpayers. But, of course, the same senior civil servants and government ministers who would have to do that, will be joining Bruton and company very soon when they, too, are kicked out of government.

What the Irish media pay for parasites like him and Edward Walsh of UL to tell us "the public service bill is too large".

Meanwhile, this is what our glorious, well-paid political elite do for themselves and their friends while imposing cutbacks on the rest of us:

Cabinet advisers get pay rise to mark first year

Pay of top government advisers revealed

Government defends pay rise for politicians in 2017

John Bruton vows to cling on to his giant pension

It's a massive gravy train, and as long as these parasites like Bruton and Walsh remain in receipt of such enormous monies, then it's hard to criticise the unions for defending public service workers on a fraction of that salary. Let this state's leaders practice what they preach.

osarusan · 18-11-2016 03:54PM

John Bruton vows to cling on to his giant pension

What a headline.

end of the road · 18-11-2016 04:06PM

xxyyzz wrote: »

unions have gotten pissed with power particularly in the public service and seem to be willing to strike at the drop of a hat.

no they haven't and no they aren't. the union has to ballot it's members. it can't call a strike without a ballot of the members. no ballot or no majority vote, no strike. a strike is always a last resort.

xxyyzz wrote: »

The ability to hold a country to ransom like the transport unions or the teachers' unions can is not a good thing for the country.

they're is no such ability to hold a country to ransom.

xxyyzz wrote: »

The civil service lives in la-la land and the sense of entitlement is something to behold.

a sense of entitlement is a general irish problem. it's not exclusive to some sections of it.

tayto lover · 18-11-2016 05:01PM

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

I don't blame the Unions.

They're grasping, greedy, shortsighted, self-centered, rabble rousing, horribly selfish little institutions.

This is unlikely to change.

I blame the successive Governments who've failed to face them down and used our money to buy them off.

You're not in a Union then and maybe a teeny weeny bit jealous of others getting rises while you're not.

_Brian · 18-11-2016 05:09PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If the unions really wanted "Pay Restoration" then they would be trying to get rid of USC, which hits everyone pretty hard, but they know that without USC, there isn't nearly enough going in to the coffers to pay for the bloated public sector.

When USC is abolished, then I have no problem with the public sector getting payrises, but quite simply, Ireland Limited isn't doing well enough to justify paying it's staff more.

Paying the Public Sector isnt about taxes, its about borrowing, were already borrowing 1.3bln a year to run the country, but the TD's/ministers were happy to add to this to give themselves double pay rises.. Based on that alone I think its time to borrow and pay the PS their restoration..

As for public/private its all sour grapes.. There were plenty of opportunities to getinto the public service down the years but people turned their noses up at it and chased the money into the private sector..

I'm not a Ps employee either, plenty of opportunities but it just isnt my thing.. But I dont begrudge them the pay that was taken from them by a government that decided to pay themselves raises before restoring the pay of those actually running the country, policint our streets and treating our sick in hospitals.. real Irish politics there !!

MeatTwoVeg · 18-11-2016 05:14PM

_Brian wrote:

Paying the Public Sector isnt about taxes, its about borrowing, were already borrowing 1.3bln a year to run the country, but the TD's/ministers were happy to add to this to give themselves double pay rises.. Based on that alone I think its time to borrow and pay the PS their restoration..

If you're already suffering from a headache, you might as well get someone to kick you really hard in the balls. You know, because logic.

deiseindublin · 18-11-2016 05:15PM

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

The Country is being run at a Deficit and these lads are just throwing out soundbites to justify their own hundred thousand euro pay packets

Is that the Ministers or the Union heads you're talking about?? Seems there's money in the coffers for their raises.

Mr. Incognito · 18-11-2016 05:34PM

deiseindublin wrote: »

Is that the Ministers or the Union heads you're talking about?? Seems there's money in the coffers for their raises.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/majority-of-union-and-lobby-group-bosses-refuse-to-disclose-salaries-34228173.html

ust 14 out of 34 leading bodies surveyed by the Irish Independent were happy to divulge the salary or pay scales of their top executives.

And the salaries disclosed were a fraction of the almost €1m in pay, pension contributions and director's fees earned by Mr Smith at the IFA in 2013 and 2014. In comparison, John Enright, general secretary of the country's second largest farming organisation, the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association (ICMSA), said he earned less than €100,000-a-year.

It also emerged the combined annual earnings of the 11 full-time staff at the ICMSA is less than Mr Smith's €535,000 remuneration package for 2013.

Of the organisations who responded to the survey, the Impact trade union offered the highest salary. Its general secretary, Shay Cody, is entitled to €152,000 a year. However, the union said he waived an undisclosed portion of this.

All of the main teaching organisations were happy to disclose either salaries or pay scales. TUI general secretary John MacGabhann earns between €127,796 and €146,191; INTO general secretary Sheila Nunan is paid between €119,381 and €136,276; while ASTI general secretary Pat King is on a salary of €134,000.

Irish Federation of University Teachers general secretary Mike Jennings is on a salary of between €78,321 and €103,261.

DFORRA general secretary Gerry Rooney, who represents members of the Defence Forces, told the Irish Independent his package was worth €98,000 and a company car. However, the Garda Representative Association said while the package of its general secretary, PJ Stone, was disclosed to members at annual conferences, it was not disclosed to the public. Most of the major unions disclosed their executive salaries, with SIPTU general president Jack O'Connor earning €108,384 last year. ICTU general secretary Patricia King earns €119,381 a year. A spokesman said she did not have a company car.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/cabinet-minister-could-still-receive-5-400-td-pay-rise-1.2830369

The pay of Cabinet Ministers is comprised of their basic TD salary (currently €87,258) and an additional ministerial component of €70,282, for a total of €157,540.

homerjay2005 · 18-11-2016 05:37PM

one word - greed.

Unions dont care about anybody else, apart from themselves and lining their own pockets with as much cash as possible.

horrible horrible people who served a purpose years ago, but now the people who actually have them, are not the people who need them.

tayto lover · 18-11-2016 05:39PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

one word - greed.

Unions dont care about anybody else, apart from themselves and lining their own pockets with as much cash as possible.

horrible horrible people who served a purpose years ago, but now the people who actually have them, are not the people who need them.

Could you explain the bit in bold for us please.

astrofool · 18-11-2016 06:45PM

Smart Bug wrote: »

Another general observation: there's a split between the public and private sectors on these kind of topics as by the very nature of their work (their vocation if you will) public servants tend to have a more developed sense of altruism and will therefore tend toward activities (membership of trade unions etc) that will improve the lot of their fellows, rather than a tendency to look after themselves while disregarding the welfare of others (capitalist mind-set).

Not sure about that, they pretty much threw new entrants under the bus both in pay and with pensions to save their own asses during the downturn. It's also not like they're not getting the profit from their work, the government is running at a deficit, there is no spoils to share. The public servants in the oversight of the financial sector were so incompetent that banks failed and put a massive bill on the country. "Social partnership" funded by a property bubble that burst caused us to be running at a deficit even if the banks hadn't gone bust.

end of the road · 18-11-2016 07:01PM

Oodoov wrote: »

At some stage over the last 20 years the unions stopped protecting societies least well off and decided to row in behind the establishment. How anyone on a wage of 50k plus in the PS can hold the country ( a broke country) to ransom so they have have what is in effect a pay rise is disgusting. Most of the private sector earned more than they are at present 10 years ago it's just the way it is.

the unions don't and can't hold the country to ransom. it just doesn't and can't happen.

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

I don't blame the Unions.

They're grasping, greedy, shortsighted, self-centered, rabble rousing, horribly selfish little institutions.

This is unlikely to change.

I blame the successive Governments who've failed to face them down and used our money to buy them off.

the unions are nothing of the sort. they aren't faced down because
1. they're is no need to.
2. the lessons have been learned and any attempt to do so will see all union members do what is necessary to protect their support system and those who enforce their rights.
we are in 2016 where government slightly believes in workers rights, not the 1980s and before where governments were against workers rights. time to move on, you lost.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

one word - greed.

Unions dont care about anybody else, apart from themselves and lining their own pockets with as much cash as possible.

horrible horrible people who served a purpose years ago, but now the people who actually have them, are not the people who need them.

they continue to serve their purpose, the purpose of looking after their members. they always will serve said purpose.

steddyeddy · 18-11-2016 07:01PM

Briefly worked in HSE (1 year) and I'll have to agree. People promoted based on time served not on merit, bloody imposdible to fire incompetents and made harder to get quality staff or fire bad ones because half them got the job based on some mammy in the civil service.

tayto lover · 18-11-2016 08:06PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Briefly worked in HSE (1 year) and I'll have to agree. People promoted based on time served not on merit, bloody imposdible to fire incompetents and made harder to get quality staff or fire bad ones because half them got the job based on some mammy in the civil service.

Hopefully things changing in that field of promotion and the Unions are actually playing a big part in it.
Nice to see now that the top Judges, Garda Commissioner etc are now being promoted by Independent panels. At long last may i say.
As regards firing people from the Public Sector, I don't believe that is still the way it used to be. New people are being offered contracts it seems.
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2014-11-06a.45

Cienciano · 18-11-2016 08:15PM

Stealthfins wrote: »

Everybody has a choice, I was laughed at by people in the private sector for taking a job in the public sector
It Was 1999 and the lads were on way better money than I.

Now I've climbed the ladder on the incremental scale and quite comfortable financially.

My job is outdoors mostly in all weather's,looking after gardens and grounds in National parks and historical site's.

I don't have the so called cushy number in a warm office.

I studied horticulture and got a job that wasn't as well paid as those who went out landscaping and designing gardens.

They had the same oppertunity as me but scoffed at the idea of lower pay etc.

I know my rights in the work place,unions know all about employment legislation and right's.

Without a union some bosses will lie,manipulate and abuse their staff.

If you're being bullied or treated unfairly not getting paid overtime,believe you me it's rampant in the private sector, and have no union on your side.
You'll pay a solicitor quite handsomely to help you out.
You'll pay him or her so much that it wouldn't be worth the hassle.

On the other hand you pay a union a small weekly fee and they'll help you out.
It's their job.
Could mean the difference between a fiver a week over a few meetings or thousands for litigation that's dragged out.

If you have a strong shop steward your sorted.

Exact reason I'm in a union, nicely put. There's loads of little things the union can help with, the stuff that makes the paper is rare.

PowerToWait · 18-11-2016 08:30PM

jimmy blevins wrote: »

The term "pay restoration" really grinds my gears, the previous levels of pay were the product of a bubble.

Previous levels were almost a decade ago. People want the same money they earned 10 fūcking years ago.

They earn less now, while cost of living has increased year on year. This bulkshìt of 'Brexit' 'Trump' are the reasons why we can't restore pay grinds my gears.

MRnotlob606 · 18-11-2016 08:35PM

riclad wrote: »

Look at america where some companys have no unions,
people have to work for 60 plus hours a week,
wages are low,
Basic health and safety rules are ignored .
Look at train crashes in the us and crashes involving truck drivers .
Unions mean people work x hours ,they get breaks ,
they get time to go to the toilet .
Drivers in the eu can only drive for a limited time ,
driving hours are recorded and checked .
Theres more accidents in the us because workers work long hours ,
and a tired driver is a danger to everyone.
Yes theres a problem in the public service ,
wheres you work for years you get a promotion,
whether your work is good or mediocre .
Just google top level civil servants pensions,
its crazy what they get .
look at the us ,wages for most people have hardly gone up since 2000,
this is because the unions are weak.
i,d prefer the irish system to the american way.

Is this a Bob Dylan song?

omega man · 18-11-2016 09:11PM

tayto lover wrote: »

You're not in a Union then and maybe a teeny weeny bit jealous of others getting rises while you're not.

Personally I'm in the private sector and I'm also a large union member. However I negotiate my salary directly with the company which has worked well for many years now.

In fact I'm not quite sure why I've remained a union member as I haven't heard from them on any company matters in a long long time.

I still believe there's a place for unions, particularly for collective bargaining in large organisations with large numbers of employees in a similar role etc.
Representation during disciplinary processes is also critical.

In saying that unions must be cognisant of the financial realities, be it private or public sector.

steddyeddy · 18-11-2016 09:12PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Hopefully things changing in that field of promotion and the Unions are actually playing a big part in it.
Nice to see now that the top Judges, Garda Commissioner etc are now being promoted by Independent panels. At long last may i say.
As regards firing people from the Public Sector, I don't believe that is still the way it used to be. New people are being offered contracts it seems.
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2014-11-06a.45

It differs by dept. I'd agree the gaurds deserve a pay rise.

doc11 · 18-11-2016 09:23PM

PowerToWait wrote: »

Previous levels were almost a decade ago. People want the same money they earned 10 fūcking years ago.

They earn less now, while cost of living has increased year on year. This bulkshìt of 'Brexit' 'Trump' are the reasons why we can't restore pay grinds my gears.

It hasn't prices are the same as ten years ago, while most civil servants have boosted there pay by 10 years of increments. So wrong on both counts

tayto lover · 18-11-2016 09:36PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

It differs by dept. I'd agree the gaurds deserve a pay rise.

The people working on the frontline should be paid well. Far too many have left for better pay and conditions overseas.

Jawgap · 19-11-2016 01:58PM

Stealthfins wrote: »

Everybody has a choice, I was laughed at by people in the private sector for taking a job in the public sector
It Was 1999 and the lads were on way better money than I.

......

Likewise. I joined the PS in 2002 (left in 2014) and was laughed at. Friends expressed despair that I was wasting my quals and my experience - but the fact was I was fed up with travelling and I wanted a different challenge.

I remember being on interview boards through to about 2008 and being laughed at - literally - by candidates when we told them the salary.......and the laughter soon stopped when we told them about the 'benefits package' - there were none!!

We had people start and leave in a matter of days because they got 'better' jobs elsewhere - the record was the person who started one Monday morning and had left by 10:30......we had a couple of instances of people going out to lunch, and never coming back!

I don't begrudge the unions trying to get restoration for their members - the whole situation was badly handled in 2008/09 in the interests of political expediency - the politicians abdicated their responsibility so I'm not sure why one group - PS workers - should be penalised because people will not elect serious politicians of ability in this country......if people want the PS to be run, managed and configured to suit the national interest then stop voting in pothole fillers and start voting in serious people......

......but the chances of that happening are more remote than ever - in my view the country, following trends in the UK and US, is going very anti-intellectual......anti-elitism is being confused with anti-intellectualism.

evolving_doors · 19-11-2016 08:30PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

It differs by dept. I'd agree the gaurds deserve a pay rise.

But what about the bad guards?

bnt · 20-11-2016 03:51PM

Unions are great when the economy is booming and there are jobs for all. They are not so great when the economy is poor and money is tight. In that situation, the unions do support their members, but at the expense of the businesses they're in and the wider economy. Has no-one in this thread learned from what happened in the UK in the late 1970s? The government had agreed with the trade unions to limit pay increases to fairly sensible levels, but there were many strikes in 1978-9 anyway. The popular perception was that the unions were holding the UK to ransom for excessive increases, and the result was the 1979 election wing by the Conservatives, led by Margaret Thatcher and her promises to curb union power. It's probably fair to say that she delivered in that regard.

The story of the Times newspapers was a classic example; the unions ran a closed shop and forced outdated production methods and hiring practices on the newspaper. So when the publishers opened a new modern printing press in 1986, with government approval, union members refused to move or adapt and called a strike. However, the new press was run by a newly-formed company, which had come to a new "open shop" agreement with another union. So, literally overnight, the old company was dissolved, and all 6,000 striking members of the old union got their P45s. The new printing press, which had been publicised as being for a new paper, was actually prepared to take over the production of four existing newspapers - which it did without a hitch. The old union, which refused to adapt, was cut out entirely.

tayto lover · 20-11-2016 05:04PM

bnt wrote: »

Unions are great when the economy is booming and there are jobs for all. They are not so great when the economy is poor and money is tight. In that situation, the unions do support their members, but at the expense of the businesses they're in and the wider economy. Has no-one in this thread learned from what happened in the UK in the late 1970s? The government had agreed with the trade unions to limit pay increases to fairly sensible levels, but there were many strikes in 1978-9 anyway. The popular perception was that the unions were holding the UK to ransom for excessive increases, and the result was the 1979 election wing by the Conservatives, led by Margaret Thatcher and her promises to curb union power. It's probably fair to say that she delivered in that regard.

The story of the Times newspapers was a classic example; the unions ran a closed shop and forced outdated production methods and hiring practices on the newspaper. So when the publishers opened a new modern printing press in 1986, with government approval, union members refused to move or adapt and called a strike. However, the new press was run by a newly-formed company, which had come to a new "open shop" agreement with another union. So, literally overnight, the old company was dissolved, and all 6,000 striking members of the old union got their P45s. The new printing press, which had been publicised as being for a new paper, was actually prepared to take over the production of four existing newspapers - which it did without a hitch. The old union, which refused to adapt, was cut out entirely.

Totally different scenario than the Public Sector dispute that is brewing here.
In the 1986 dispute Rupert Murdock used the Thatcher Government to break the strike. The police were ordered to be heavy-handed too thus allowing strike breakers into the print and newspapers out.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2011/jul/27/rupert-murdoch-wapping-25-years

As I said earlier - the Public Sector are stronger than the Govt here. They have more power.

bnt · 21-11-2016 12:36AM

tayto lover wrote: »

Totally different scenario than the Public Sector dispute that is brewing here.
In the 1986 dispute Rupert Murdock used the Thatcher Government to break the strike. The police were ordered to be heavy-handed too thus allowing strike breakers into the print and newspapers out.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2011/jul/27/rupert-murdoch-wapping-25-years

As I said earlier - the Public Sector are stronger than the Govt here. They have more power.

You're focusing on what happened in the 1980s, but that was a reaction to what happened in the 1970s - that was what I was talking about first. Do you think what Thatcher & Murdoch did couldn't happen here?

Donal55 · 21-11-2016 12:54AM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Unions are pointless in society today. The governments of Ireland and UK don't listen to them.

Eh, ask Richard Bruton, Francis Fitzgerald, Simon Harris or wee Paschal. They're only too willing to talk.
And pull €50million from their arse pockets when pushed up against a wall.

Calhoun · 21-11-2016 02:33AM

The Unions smell blood in the water and know that now is the time to strike as the government could topple and votes need to be secured, one would hope that no economic upsets happen over the next year or so or they are screwed.

I do agree however there is something seriously wrong with them and if there was a voting option that tackled them head on and got rid of the dead weight in the PS i would be all for it.

For now i think the government should deal with them but should target their unsustainable pensions and benchmark them against a private sector employee :P

What the hell is wrong with the Unions in this Country ??

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