What the hell is wrong with the Unions in this Country ??

Mr. Incognito · 17-11-2016 06:21PM #1

Before we open another can of worms on the Public Sector, Private Sector divide, can I just ask what the hell is wrong with the Unions in this country.

Anyone who has had any experience of the public sector both within and without knows that morale is on the floor. It's not just pay. It's because people are promoted based on time served not ability. It doesnt matter if you do a sterling job or sit around and make tea and browse Facebook promotion will swing by or not just the same or not.

Instead of trying to lobby for actual change in Ireland the Union heads negotated lower salaries for newer entrants. It was the Unions's kite that they negotated to protect the current staffs inflated wages.

Lets just be clear on the actual hardship endured on this country.

No one in any Public Service position lost their Jobs. Thousands and Thousands in the Private Sector lost jobs, emigrated.

The cut in the Public Service was felt by the new entrants who got frozen out and absolutely screwed. The unions did that to them, now they are turning two faced and pointing out how unfair it is even though these weasels sold out the new entrants . And to be fair, no one got their pay increases and they had to pay a bit for their pension, but no where near what that pension is worth to a private sector worker who would have to pay for an equivalent pension.

Unions are an archiac hangover from the Industrial era. They are not required in the modern Employment Legisation World They are entitled by law to attend work disciplinary meetings butif they dont actually know anything about workers rights and then can they turn around and shrug and say, hey, whoops. Lawyers are insured. If they are negligent you can sue. Unions are not professionals or trained. Its basically taking in the lad down the pub with you.

The comments from Jack O Connor Jack O'Connor "]today [/URL] just show how out of touch these cretins are.

The Country is being run at a Deficit and these lads are just throwing out soundbites to justify their own hundred thousand euro pay packets

topper75 · 17-11-2016 06:31PM

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

The Country is being run at a Deficit

Yes that is the serious material fact at the centre of this.

The realpolitik of it though is these guys will push it, simply because they can.

Ted111 · 17-11-2016 06:40PM

Comrade Incognito, the plight of the working man vis a vis the capitalist system puts the individual in the chains of the bourgeois vis a vis the means of production.

Arcade_Tryer · 17-11-2016 06:41PM

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Before we open another can of worms on the Public Sector, Private Sector divide

No one in any Public Service position lost their Jobs. Thousands and Thousands in the Private Sector lost jobs, emigrated.

Can of worms officially opened.

Unions are an archiac hangover from the Industrial era. They are not required in the modern Employment Legisation World

Can of blissful ignorance officially opened.

suicide_circus · 17-11-2016 07:28PM

A few points.

1. "Pay Restoration". Restoring pay to levels seen when the country was paying people more than it was taking in is a foolhardy and irresponsible concept. If we want the books to balance and for equal pay for equal work to exist, the uncomfortable fact is that a lot of older civil servants need to take a substantial pay cut. We also need to not only keep the USC but actually widen the net so that more people contribute income tax.

2."There is no more money". Yes there is. Its just concentrated in the koffers of a tiny minority of people. The working poor bicker over the scraps from the tables of our betters like dogs.

Hammer89 · 17-11-2016 07:30PM

I was about to launch an impassioned defence of Irish onions before realising.

ChikiChiki · 17-11-2016 07:31PM

We need to wait till Britain triggers article 50 and Trumps America comes to the fore before we start giving out further pay rises from tax payer funds. Then we need to analyse the impact.

It would be idiotic in my opinion. Enda Kenny should go. The recovery narrative they ran with to get elected was incompetence at its best.

jimmy blevins · 17-11-2016 07:40PM

The term "pay restoration" really grinds my gears, the previous levels of pay were the product of a bubble.

diomed · 17-11-2016 07:43PM

This is the plan

(1) bring the lower paid in the public service up to the level of the higher paid
(2) higher paid then get increases to restore the gap over the lower paid.

suicide_circus · 17-11-2016 07:44PM

diomed wrote: »

This is the plan

(1) bring the lower paid in the public service up to the level of the higher paid
(2) higher paid then get increases to restore the gap over the lower paid.

"Dig up, stupid!"

tayto lover · 17-11-2016 07:47PM

Everything is geared to ensuring that the Big Man stays big and the small man stays small.
Unions are very necessary as I found out years ago working in a non-union job.

end of the road · 17-11-2016 07:57PM

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Unions are an archiac hangover from the Industrial era.

no they aren't. they are a necessary force for many and good enforcers of employment law and workers rights.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

They are not required in the modern Employment Legisation World

they are required otherwise they wouldn't exist. employment law on it's own isn't enough, one needs the facility to look after their rights and a union is ultimately the best option. nobody has to join if they don't want to but those who wish to are entitled to.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

The comments from Jack O Connor Jack O'Connor "]today [/URL] just show how out of touch these cretins are.

they are not cretins.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

The Country is being run at a Deficit and these lads are just throwing out soundbites to justify their own hundred thousand euro pay packets

that the members decided they should earn. if they aren't worth the money they won't be paid that amount and will be replaced with a new leader who is.

_Brian · 17-11-2016 07:58PM

I think it's important to understand the function of a Union.

Their remit is to get the best possible pay and conditions for their members. Unions will always take any chance to open negotiations with employers for pay increases for employees. That is what they are doing, the government signalled that pay rises were backnon the table for public servants by awarding themselves pay increases and double pay increases in the case of ministers.

So on the back of that they are out to undo pay cuts and enforce pay rises going forward.

Unions have no social conscience, their responsibilities are to members only.

Arcade_Tryer · 17-11-2016 08:56PM

_Brian wrote: »

Unions have no social conscience, their responsibilities are to members only.

Employers have no social conscience; their responsibilities are to shareholders only. Unions act as a counterbalance to protect labour from being exploited amidst the never-ending pursuit by business for profit maximisation and efficiency.

riclad · 17-11-2016 09:16PM

Look at america where some companys have no unions,
people have to work for 60 plus hours a week,
wages are low,
Basic health and safety rules are ignored .
Look at train crashes in the us and crashes involving truck drivers .
Unions mean people work x hours ,they get breaks ,
they get time to go to the toilet .
Drivers in the eu can only drive for a limited time ,
driving hours are recorded and checked .
Theres more accidents in the us because workers work long hours ,
and a tired driver is a danger to everyone.
Yes theres a problem in the public service ,
wheres you work for years you get a promotion,
whether your work is good or mediocre .
Just google top level civil servants pensions,
its crazy what they get .
look at the us ,wages for most people have hardly gone up since 2000,
this is because the unions are weak.
i,d prefer the irish system to the american way.

Guy:Incognito · 17-11-2016 09:58PM

riclad wrote: »

Drivers in the eu can only drive for a limited time ,
driving hours are recorded and checked ..

Unionised drivers ? Or all drivers..................................?

end of the road · 17-11-2016 10:24PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Unionised drivers ? Or all drivers..................................?

all drivers, thanks to the unions

P_1 · 17-11-2016 10:35PM

The current unions are ineffective and the old effectively shafted the young. Time to get rid of the O'Connors, Beggs and the rest and replace them with people who actually know how the modern world works. They have lost touch with the people they are supposed to represent.

Fleawuss · 17-11-2016 10:37PM

As long as capitalism exists there will be a need for unions. Both of them are necessary evils.

Charles Babbage · 17-11-2016 10:43PM

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Before we open another can of worms on the Public Sector, Private Sector divide, can I just ask what the hell is wrong with the Unions in this country.

Anyone who has had any experience of the public sector both within and without knows that morale is on the floor. It's not just pay. It's because people are promoted based on time served not ability. It doesnt matter if you do a sterling job or sit around and make tea and browse Facebook promotion will swing by or not just the same or not.

Instead of trying to lobby for actual change in Ireland the Union heads negotated lower salaries for newer entrants. It was the Unions's kite that they negotated to protect the current staffs inflated wages.

Lets just be clear on the actual hardship endured on this country.

No one in any Public Service position lost their Jobs. Thousands and Thousands in the Private Sector lost jobs, emigrated.

The cut in the Public Service was felt by the new entrants who got frozen out and absolutely screwed. The unions did that to them, now they are turning two faced and pointing out how unfair it is even though these weasels sold out the new entrants . And to be fair, no one got their pay increases and they had to pay a bit for their pension, but no where near what that pension is worth to a private sector worker who would have to pay for an equivalent pension.

Unions are an archiac hangover from the Industrial era. They are not required in the modern Employment Legisation World They are entitled by law to attend work disciplinary meetings butif they dont actually know anything about workers rights and then can they turn around and shrug and say, hey, whoops. Lawyers are insured. If they are negligent you can sue. Unions are not professionals or trained. Its basically taking in the lad down the pub with you.

The usual rant.
Nobody lost their jobs in the public service because they were doing something people needed. People whose services were not in demand lost their jobs.

New entrants did get a lower rate in the bust, this was a reasonable step at the time. It is not reasonable to continue this.

Mr. Incognito · 18-11-2016 09:43AM

riclad wrote: »

Look at america where some companys have no unions,
people have to work for 60 plus hours a week,
wages are low,
Basic health and safety rules are ignored .
Look at train crashes in the us and crashes involving truck drivers .
Unions mean people work x hours ,they get breaks ,
they get time to go to the toilet .
Drivers in the eu can only drive for a limited time ,
driving hours are recorded and checked .
Theres more accidents in the us because workers work long hours ,
and a tired driver is a danger to everyone.
Yes theres a problem in the public service ,
wheres you work for years you get a promotion,
whether your work is good or mediocre .
Just google top level civil servants pensions,
its crazy what they get .
look at the us ,wages for most people have hardly gone up since 2000,
this is because the unions are weak.
i,d prefer the irish system to the american way.

This is because of the Working time Directive.

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=706&langId=en&intPageId=205

Nothing to do with unions. As is most workers benefits. Its through legislation. Law. Not unions

Jawgap · 18-11-2016 10:15AM

Somewhat ironic that discussion on this topic will take place over one of the greatest outputs to come from organised labour and unions......the "weekend."

Unions are just doing what they are always doing - looking after their members - that's what they're paid to do.

But the OP is right, the PS needs reform, but the people keep voting in politicians who have zero appetite to take on meaningful reform. The governments over the years have struck 'bad' deals (or great ones in you're a public servant) and now efforts are being made to hold them to them.....I'd imagine if the situation was reversed and the unions were trying to wriggle free of the agreements there'd be hell to pay, so don't blame the unions for being good negotiators and now taking advantage of circumstances to advance their members' interests, blame the politicians who agreed these deals in the first place, and who used the term 'financial emergency' to justify their actions - didn't they realise that at some point the emergency was going to pass?

Oh, and it might be worth noting that while the focus has shifted to 'greedy' PS workers, it was the private sector Luas drivers who kicked it all off for this round.

Jawgap · 18-11-2016 10:18AM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

The usual rant.
Nobody lost their jobs in the public service because they were doing something people needed. People whose services were not in demand lost their jobs.

New entrants did get a lower rate in the bust, this was a reasonable step at the time. It is not reasonable to continue this.

Bit of a myth that - plenty lost their jobs in the rush to reduce headcount......it was just achieved through means other than redundancy

18-11-2016 10:20AM

There are a lobby group just like any other lobby group except with a bit of added ideology.

Winterlong · 18-11-2016 10:26AM

mariaalice wrote: »

There are a lobby group just like any other lobby group except with a bit of added ideology.

And (in some cases) with the power to bring the country to a standstill.

I am all for sharing the wealth but not until the country is actually operating a surplus. No private company operating at a deficit would be giving pay rises.

Jawgap · 18-11-2016 10:30AM

Winterlong wrote: »

And (in some cases) with the power to bring the country to a standstill.

I am all for sharing the wealth but not until the country is actually operating a surplus. No private company operating at a deficit would be giving pay rises.

Countries are not companies, nor are they households, so the twee wisdom of commerce and domesticity does not apply in the fiscal realm

granturismo · 18-11-2016 10:30AM

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

This is because of the Working time Directive.

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=706&langId=en&intPageId=205

Nothing to do with unions. As is most workers benefits. Its through legislation. Law. Not unions

Rubbish. EU advisory committees are comprised of various interest groups including union nominees from member states.

Do you think there was no workplace safety legislation for the majority of Irish workplaces until 1989 because of benevolent EEC parliamentarians? The Factory Act 1956 was the only safety legislation in Ireland until 1989, it didnt apply to all workplaces and the 1989 Irish Safety legislation was only enacted on the basis of an EU directive.

EU workplace directives are initiated by stakeholders including unions.

Shenshen · 18-11-2016 10:32AM

As a non-Irish person (hailing from a country where unions and strikes are allowed in all sectors except for public servants), I have to ask why it is that unions here seem to have the biggest impact in the sector with the most well-protected jobs? Is it because it's so easy to organise against a single employer, but unions just can't be bothered to negotiate with hundreds of them as would the case in most areas of the private sector?

Winterlong · 18-11-2016 10:35AM

Jawgap wrote: »

Countries are not companies, nor are they households, so the twee wisdom of commerce and domesticity does not apply in the fiscal realm

I dont understand the principled difference. Why would it not be ok for a private company to give pay rises when operating at a deficit but it would be ok for a country?

Stealthfins · 18-11-2016 10:35AM

Everybody has a choice, I was laughed at by people in the private sector for taking a job in the public sector
It Was 1999 and the lads were on way better money than I.

Now I've climbed the ladder on the incremental scale and quite comfortable financially.

My job is outdoors mostly in all weather's,looking after gardens and grounds in National parks and historical site's.

I don't have the so called cushy number in a warm office.

I studied horticulture and got a job that wasn't as well paid as those who went out landscaping and designing gardens.

They had the same oppertunity as me but scoffed at the idea of lower pay etc.

I know my rights in the work place,unions know all about employment legislation and right's.

Without a union some bosses will lie,manipulate and abuse their staff.

If you're being bullied or treated unfairly not getting paid overtime,believe you me it's rampant in the private sector, and have no union on your side.
You'll pay a solicitor quite handsomely to help you out.
You'll pay him or her so much that it wouldn't be worth the hassle.

On the other hand you pay a union a small weekly fee and they'll help you out.
It's their job.
Could mean the difference between a fiver a week over a few meetings or thousands for litigation that's dragged out.

If you have a strong shop steward your sorted.

xxyyzz · 18-11-2016 10:46AM

riclad wrote: »

Look at america where some companys have no unions,
people have to work for 60 plus hours a week,
wages are low,
Basic health and safety rules are ignored .
Look at train crashes in the us and crashes involving truck drivers .
Unions mean people work x hours ,they get breaks ,
they get time to go to the toilet .
Drivers in the eu can only drive for a limited time ,
driving hours are recorded and checked .
Theres more accidents in the us because workers work long hours ,
and a tired driver is a danger to everyone.
Yes theres a problem in the public service ,
wheres you work for years you get a promotion,
whether your work is good or mediocre .
Just google top level civil servants pensions,
its crazy what they get .
look at the us ,wages for most people have hardly gone up since 2000,
this is because the unions are weak.
i,d prefer the irish system to the american way.

There is a happy medium though, yes I believe unions can be necessary when you look at things like zero hour contracts for retail workers etc which is a terrible practice however unions have gotten pissed with power particularly in the public service and seem to be willing to strike at the drop of a hat. The ability to hold a country to ransom like the transport unions or the teachers' unions can is not a good thing for the country. The civil service lives in la-la land and the sense of entitlement is something to behold.

What the hell is wrong with the Unions in this Country ??

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