Vegans and Vegetarians Think They Don’t Kill Animals but They Do

FortySeven · 15-11-2016 06:18PM

ScumLord wrote: »

It would essentially be "consumed" by a business into a new product. Exporting it doesn't change the fact it was imported.

Of course it doesn't really say how the meat is imported. Maybe it's imported as cheap beef patties that you'd get in a chipper, if it is it's probably a disingenuous statistic because those patties probably aren't just meat in the same way a cut of beef is. Most chippers have a sign somewhere stating they're meat is Irish, my local does, even McDonalds do that. It really wouldn't surprise me at all if most that imported meat ends up leaving the country again in a package. For all I know it's coming here simply to be packaged for export, the fact we produce so much meat might mean we're competitive on stuff like that.

Ireland produces high quality lean meat. Meat is packaged in 25 kilo frozen blocks and labelled by fat content and quality. Companies specify required fat content and pallets are mixed to create the right percentage.

We mostly mixed with fatty French meat. It leaves repackaged and relabled as Irish when it could be half and half.

diomed · 15-11-2016 06:19PM

Taking a bit of a diversion here, but still on the subject of misdirected concern for nature, and animals.

When there is a fox hunt you get people protesting about the poor cuddly fox being chased and sometimes being killed.
Chasing the fox are horses and hounds. The horses are vegetarian but the hounds eat meat. What meat? There are many surplus horses in horse country. Often there are stud farms that breed hundreds of horses, but many of these are not good enough to race. Fill in the blanks.

ScumLord · 15-11-2016 06:26PM

Shenshen wrote: »

While that's certainly true, there are a lot more crops that could be grown here but aren't.
I always die a little inside when I see asparagus from Peru and garlic from China on the supermarket shelves

I suppose it is still cheaper that way, but something inside me balks at the thought that these things have travelled further than I do in any given year, when they could in theory be grown just down the road.

Yeah, it seems crazy to me that something grown on the other side of the world can end up being cheaper than something from 200 miles down the road. It's all down to the way our economy works. When you think about all the resources that go into getting an apple to me from Brazil, it just seems like a false economy that that apple can cost less than the one that's grown less than 200 miles away. It seems like trickery.

I drove down through France and Spain this summer and it's shocking the amount of food they grow there. Just about every bit of available land has something growing on it. The north of france is veg of all sorts and as you move south you start seeing sun floors, wheat, grapes, into spain you start seeing olives, oranges and other fruits. It really was every bit of available land too, it was bizarre the places you'd see wheat growing. So many houses had a bit of everything growing in their back gardens.

Ireland looks barron from a farming perspective in comparison. I have a friend with a piece of land and he's been trying to find a crop he can grow on it. He was shot down by Bulmers because it rains to much. I'm sure if farmers could grow crops on their land they would. These days they don't even need all the equipment, just hire in a guy to do the harvest. But the risk is too high, we can produce animals at very little risk.

I think Ireland should decide to go for high end organic meat, become known for it globally. Really, top end restaurants around the world should be demanding high quality Irish meat.

kunst nugget · 15-11-2016 06:34PM

ScumLord wrote: »

I think Ireland should decide to go for high end organic meat, become known for it globally. Really, top end restaurants around the world should be demanding high quality Irish meat.

IIRC, Irish beef has pretty decent reputation abroad because most of the cattle are grass fed, thanks to the climate, and pasture raised which gives a much better taste to the beef than the grain fed version you'd get in the likes of the states.

_Brian · 15-11-2016 06:46PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Yeah, it seems crazy to me that something grown on the other side of the world can end up being cheaper than something from 200 miles down the road. It's all down to the way our economy works. When you think about all the resources that go into getting an apple to me from Brazil, it just seems like a false economy that that apple can cost less than the one that's grown less than 200 miles away. It seems like trickery.

I drove down through France and Spain this summer and it's shocking the amount of food they grow there. Just about every bit of available land has something growing on it. The north of france is veg of all sorts and as you move south you start seeing sun floors, wheat, grapes, into spain you start seeing olives, oranges and other fruits. It really was every bit of available land too, it was bizarre the places you'd see wheat growing. So many houses had a bit of everything growing in their back gardens.

Ireland looks barron from a farming perspective in comparison. I have a friend with a piece of land and he's been trying to find a crop he can grow on it. He was shot down by Bulmers because it rains to much. I'm sure if farmers could grow crops on their land they would. These days they don't even need all the equipment, just hire in a guy to do the harvest. But the risk is too high, we can produce animals at very little risk.

I think Ireland should decide to go for high end organic meat, become known for it globally. Really, top end restaurants around the world should be demanding high quality Irish meat.

Huge swathes of Ireland neither has the soil or climate to grow crops. We have a small beef farm but farm on what would be catagorised as marginal land, daub clay soils with only 4inches of topsoil in most places, it just about grows grass. Beef on a small scale is the only option currently.

ScumLord · 15-11-2016 06:51PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

IIRC, Irish beef has pretty decent reputation abroad because most of the cattle are grass fed, thanks to the climate, and pasture raised which gives a much better taste to the beef than the grain fed version you'd get in the likes of the states.

The problem is Americans have become accustomed to that high fat meat that corn feeding produces. I remember hearing Joe Rogan go on about a steak he had in N.Ireland and he thought it was bland because it wasn't full of fat. If you tell the food snobs it's the best and charge well for it they'll get used to the taste and then encourage others that they really need to be buying Irish meat because it's so much better for you.

_Brian · 15-11-2016 06:53PM

In Ireland we have given too much over to buying our meat in supermarkets.

This purchasing of meat from essentially one or two processors in the industry has seriously skewed the beef industry which is now controlled by essentially one man.

This persons company now dictates to farmers the weights, types and ages of cattle that are required rather than farmers breeding the best animals for taste and customer satisfaction. The. The farmer spends two years rearing the animal that the companies require only for at the last minute the goal posts tonne moved and then they must take a sub standard price for their product which is no longer required.

If more consumers sought out local butchers who also kill their own animals. This is a system that is sustainable. The animals are reared locally, only transported a short distance and are chosen by the butcher to be animals that will taste good for the consumer. This should be the norm and would benifet the consumers greatly with better foods at only marginally increased prices.

_Brian · 15-11-2016 06:55PM

I do sometimes feel that the whole "plant protein is best" lobby has sinister backgrounds. I feel it's being pushed by processors who are interested in us consuming more and more highly processed foods supplied from labs rather than farms, and it has to come from half way round the world.

kunst nugget · 15-11-2016 06:57PM

ScumLord wrote: »

The problem is Americans have become accustomed to that high fat meat that corn feeding produces. I remember hearing Joe Rogan go on about a steak he had in N.Ireland and he thought it was bland because it wasn't full of fat. If you tell the food snobs it's the best and charge well for it they'll get used to the taste and then encourage others that they really need to be buying Irish meat because it's so much better for you.

That's strange because I've heard him advocating the quality of grass fed steak many times on his podcast and praise it over the standard grain-fed versions that you'd normally get in the US. Maybe it just wasn't a good steak…

Discodog · 15-11-2016 06:57PM

diomed wrote: »

Taking a bit of a diversion here, but still on the subject of misdirected concern for nature, and animals.

When there is a fox hunt you get people protesting about the poor cuddly fox being chased and sometimes being killed.
Chasing the fox are horses and hounds. The horses are vegetarian but the hounds eat meat. What meat? There are many surplus horses in horse country. Often there are stud farms that breed hundreds of horses, but many of these are not good enough to race. Fill in the blanks.

Ok so fox hunting is cruel for the hounds as well as the fox & horse breeders are just as cruel :pac:

ScumLord · 15-11-2016 07:02PM

_Brian wrote: »

If more consumers sought out local butchers who also kill their own animals. This is a system that is sustainable. The animals are reared locally, only transported a short distance and are chosen by the butcher to be animals that will taste good for the consumer. This should be the norm and would benifet the consumers greatly with better foods at only marginally increased prices.

I'd totally agree. The problem is those butchers are becoming rare. We had one in our town but he had to close up shop during the recession. I think there would need to be a push at government level to make it happen and make it the norm. The problem is Ireland has pretty high standards which means it can be expensive to get the right equipment.

I always give the example of having to buy a certified ruler for work. It was a typical 12" steel ruler, the only difference was it had a cert to say it was tested and calibrated to be correct. It's very likely it came off the same line as the ruler everyone else buys and all that happened was a machine checked it against another calibrated ruler. Ruler cost £100, sterling! Those are the kind of markups you're going to see on food production machinery. Running the machines probably means paying a FSAI auditor 2 grand a year to come out and check what your doing is up to standard. So the cost are going to mount up for a small time butcher.

I'm not saying standards are bad, they're a good thing and the auditing is a good thing, but the money that changes hand just for someone to give you the nod can be madness.

ScumLord · 15-11-2016 07:04PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

That's strange because I've heard him advocating the quality of grass fed steak many times on his podcast and praise it over the standard grain-fed versions that you'd normally get in the US. Maybe it just wasn't a good steak…

He knows it's better, I think he actually started hunting for his meat. It may have been his introduction to non corn feed beef and he was just commenting on how different it was. But it shows that organic meat isn't going to be an easy sell to people used to fatty meats.

_Brian · 15-11-2016 07:11PM

ScumLord wrote: »

I'd totally agree. The problem is those butchers are becoming rare. We had one in our town but he had to close up shop during the recession. I think there would need to be a push at government level to make it happen and make it the norm. The problem is Ireland has pretty high standards which means it can be expensive to get the right equipment.

I always give the example of having to buy a certified ruler for work. It was a typical 12" steel ruler, the only difference was it had a cert to say it was tested and calibrated to be correct. It's very likely it came off the same line as the ruler everyone else buys and all that happened was a machine checked it against another calibrated ruler. Ruler cost £100, sterling! Those are the kind of markups you're going to see on food production machinery. Running the machines probably means paying a FSAI auditor 2 grand a year to come out and check what your doing is up to standard. So the cost are going to mount up for a small time butcher.

I'm not saying standards are bad, they're a good thing and the auditing is a good thing, but the money that changes hand just for someone to give you the nod can be madness.

You see there is no reason we have any more stringent legislation than France that you mentioned before as we're both EU members working of the same legislation.

However lobbying here by vested interests have made local artisan food production a total nightmare. Go to a French market and you will see much, much more home produced goods and meats being sold from refrigerated vans.

Discodog · 15-11-2016 07:38PM

My friend in England rears organic free range pork. It's slaughtered on the farm & processed. They have a farm shop & sell at farmer's markets as well as to high end restaurants. It's very successful & the pigs have a great life.

K.Flyer · 15-11-2016 07:56PM

ScumLord wrote: »

[..]I wouldn't really accept that cattle know what's coming to them either. They're used to being transported, that's something familiar to them so it probably wouldn't alarm them all that much.

How often are cattle transported? How is it familiar?
If they are born, bred and raised on a farm then most likely the only time they are to be transported is to the slaughter house.
Herded with electronic prods and crammed tight into the back of a truck for the one and final journey.

They don't know what an abattoir is, they're not used to the smells in there, which might put them on edge on some instinctual level but they've no reason to think they're going to die.

Having spent many years doing maintenance work in several slaughter houses I would disagree.
The cattle again are herded with electronic prods to keep them tight in line behind each other. As they get closer to the killing box the loud noises and smell of blood hits them as well as the noises coming from the cattle up ahead of them. They then start to get very jumpy and noisey. When they get pushed into the kill box, they start kicking and try to get out, knowing they are trapped and some of them make a peculiar howling sound which appears to get the cattle behind them distressed and the cycle continues.
The cattle may not know what a slaughter house is, but I believe that they sense that they are about to die when they are getting closer to the killing box.

_Brian · 15-11-2016 08:02PM

K.Flyer wrote: »

How often are cattle transported? How is it familiar?
If they are born, bred and raised on a farm then most likely the only time they are to be transported is to the slaughter house.
Herded with electronic prods and crammed tight into the back of a truck for the one and final journey.

Having spent many years doing maintenance work in several slaughter houses I would disagree.
The cattle again are herded with electronic prods to keep them tight in line behind each other. As they get closer to the killing box the loud noises and smell of blood hits them as well as the noises coming from the cattle up ahead of them. They then start to get very jumpy and noisey. When they get pushed into the kill box, they start kicking and try to get out, knowing they are trapped and some of them make a peculiar howling sound which appears to get the cattle behind them distressed and the cycle continues.
The cattle may not know what a slaughter house is, but I believe that they sense that they are about to die when they are getting closer to the killing box.

TBH as a farmer a lot of what you describe is what happens any time cattle are herded into small enclosed spaces.
We bring them in maybe 6 times a year where they are restrained and treated for parasites or for compulsory vetinary testing and they just don't enjoy being cornered.

Electronic cattle prods are not the norm either.

osarusan · 15-11-2016 08:02PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

IIRC, Irish beef has pretty decent reputation abroad because most of the cattle are grass fed, thanks to the climate, and pasture raised which gives a much better taste to the beef than the grain fed version you'd get in the likes of the states.

Indeed. I remember reading something about an Argentinian beef producer, whose beef was selling for premium prices in America, and being hailed as really special top-class beef.

Somebody was sent down to Argentina to find out just how they were producing such great beef, and lo and behold, all they were doing was leaving the animals out into the fields in the sun and fresh air to eat grass at their own pace.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 15-11-2016 08:52PM

ScumLord wrote: »

I'd totally agree. The problem is those butchers are becoming rare. We had one in our town but he had to close up shop during the recession. I think there would need to be a push at government level to make it happen and make it the norm. The problem is Ireland has pretty high standards which means it can be expensive to get the right equipment.

I always give the example of having to buy a certified ruler for work. It was a typical 12" steel ruler, the only difference was it had a cert to say it was tested and calibrated to be correct. It's very likely it came off the same line as the ruler everyone else buys and all that happened was a machine checked it against another calibrated ruler. Ruler cost £100, sterling! Those are the kind of markups you're going to see on food production machinery. Running the machines probably means paying a FSAI auditor 2 grand a year to come out and check what your doing is up to standard. So the cost are going to mount up for a small time butcher.

I'm not saying standards are bad, they're a good thing and the auditing is a good thing, but the money that changes hand just for someone to give you the nod can be madness.

We get our sheep and heifers killed, cut and bagged by a local butcher (who also happens to be a friend). There were 4-5 butchers around the locality who would each specialise in particular animals at different times of the year.

But every year new regulations would begin to be enforced and each would have to spend tens of thousands to comply with and over 10 years they closed as they couldn't actually make a living from butchering any more. All of a sudden, the inspectorate realised if they were all shut down then they wouldn't have a job any more and they tried to take a more nuanced view of the regulations but it was too late as the abattoirs had all shut bar one.

I could go on a rant about the regulations here but it would achieve nothing, the very same as the regulations themselves are just an exercise in box-ticking on a couple of A4 pages.

Edups · 15-11-2016 09:00PM

K.Flyer wrote: »

How often are cattle transported? How is it familiar?
If they are born, bred and raised on a farm then most likely the only time they are to be transported is to the slaughter house.
Herded with electronic prods and crammed tight into the back of a truck for the one and final journey.

Having spent many years doing maintenance work in several slaughter houses I would disagree.
The cattle again are herded with electronic prods to keep them tight in line behind each other. As they get closer to the killing box the loud noises and smell of blood hits them as well as the noises coming from the cattle up ahead of them. They then start to get very jumpy and noisey. When they get pushed into the kill box, they start kicking and try to get out, knowing they are trapped and some of them make a peculiar howling sound which appears to get the cattle behind them distressed and the cycle continues.
The cattle may not know what a slaughter house is, but I believe that they sense that they are about to die when they are getting closer to the killing box.

They can get upset and stressed but that's mostly the new smells and sounds. One thing that really made me feel kind of sick to my stomach was when I was in training for Slaney the training coordinator said something like, "we don't like to stress them out," which I thought well that's nice .."it ruins the meat". Ah. Lovely.

I think the funny side of rearing animals for slaughter is no one bats an eyelid (myself included) towards a cow, pig, chicken, Turkey, lamb, goose etc being killed but we often scoff in disgust that some Asian countries eat dog and cat, but that's some awful tragedy... I have to mention I'm neither vegetarian or vegan, but it's just an amusing hypocrisy. If we started slaughtering dogs in the morning in Abitorrs they'd be shut down and ransacked in 10 minutes. I often have to wonder why is a dogs life more valuable than a cows? The same people who eat meat would be sick on the spot if you said "before slaughtering the dog we bring it for a walk and play fetch"

ScumLord · 16-11-2016 01:05AM

Edups wrote: »

I think the funny side of rearing animals for slaughter is no one bats an eyelid (myself included) towards a cow, pig, chicken, Turkey, lamb, goose etc being killed but we often scoff in disgust that some Asian countries eat dog and cat, but that's some awful tragedy... I have to mention I'm neither vegetarian or vegan, but it's just an amusing hypocrisy. If we started slaughtering dogs in the morning in Abitorrs they'd be shut down and ransacked in 10 minutes. I often have to wonder why is a dogs life more valuable than a cows? The same people who eat meat would be sick on the spot if you said "before slaughtering the dog we bring it for a walk and play fetch"

Cats and dogs don't really have more worth. Cats are routinely killed just for showing up in a place. Dogs are killed just because people get tired of them. A cow has value, you wouldn't kill one just because you've decided you don't want it anymore, someone will probably pay for it. Try selling an unwanted dog.

Eating Cats and dogs isn't ideal from a nutritional point of view, most predators don't make good food because they accumulate toxins. The temperament of cattle makes keeping them for food easier. Cats and dogs will always try to run away, with cows they'll pretty much stay put if there's food. It's dumb to eat small animals that we've engineered to be companion pets. There's a reason we keep the animals we do for food. They're way better.

wakka12 · 16-11-2016 01:39AM

What is the point of this article? The benefits to the environment and animal welfare from being vegan are absolutely massive, there is no other single thing you could do to help the planet more right now than become vegan, regardless of this revelation

Edups · 16-11-2016 01:42AM

ScumLord wrote: »

Cats and dogs don't really have more worth. Cats are routinely killed just for showing up in a place. Dogs are killed just because people get tired of them. A cow has value, you wouldn't kill one just because you've decided you don't want it anymore, someone will probably pay for it. Try selling an unwanted dog.

Eating Cats and dogs isn't ideal from a nutritional point of view, most predators don't make good food because they accumulate toxins. The temperament of cattle makes keeping them for food easier. Cats and dogs will always try to run away, with cows they'll pretty much stay put if there's food. It's dumb to eat small animals that we've engineered to be companion pets. There's a reason we keep the animals we do for food. They're way better.

Rabbit? Chickens? People keep these as pets and others eat. There's not one thing sensible about killing thousands of animals a day for food, regardless of how it's spun. I eat meat daily as I've said, but I won't pretend it's righteous to eat a cow or pig, it's completely unfair.

Mooooo · 16-11-2016 01:51AM

ScumLord wrote: »

The problem is Americans have become accustomed to that high fat meat that corn feeding produces. I remember hearing Joe Rogan go on about a steak he had in N.Ireland and he thought it was bland because it wasn't full of fat. If you tell the food snobs it's the best and charge well for it they'll get used to the taste and then encourage others that they really need to be buying Irish meat because it's so much better for you.

A lot of that is due to the breed as much as anything else. Traditional breeds such Aberdeen Angus and hereford and cross breeds of these have more fat and marbling in the meat than continental breeds such as belgian blue, etc.

Shenshen · 16-11-2016 09:01AM

Just for a bit of perspective, lads - yes, cattle and sheep have a great life in Ireland compared to nearly anywhere else in the world.
However, beef only accounts for 22% of meat consumption in Ireland, and consumption of lamb and mutton is at 4%.

It's fantastic that these guys have a good life, but the vast, vast majority of animals being raised for food in the this country - poultry and pigs - for the most part really don't. So well done on the cow front, now let's get something done to make sure pigs and chickens get a comparable quality of life.

_Brian · 16-11-2016 09:07AM

Shenshen wrote: »

Just for a bit of perspective, lads - yes, cattle and sheep have a great life in Ireland compared to nearly anywhere else in the world.
However, beef only accounts for 22% of meat consumption in Ireland, and consumption of lamb and mutton is at 4%.

It's fantastic that these guys have a good life, but the vast, vast majority of animals being raised for food in the this country - poultry and pigs - for the most part really don't. So well done on the cow front, now let's get something done to make sure pigs and chickens get a comparable quality of life.

I'm seeing more and more free range chickens for sale, some come from units close to where I live and I see the chickens out on the fields beside the sheds. I think this is a good move and I'm happy to pay a little more to support this style of poultry farming.

Pigs, I really can't say I know of anyone local commercially farming pigs free range. I think it would be a great step on the quality of life of the pigs.

But the consumer needs to be willing to seek out these products and then pay a small premium for it. That will develop the industry quicker than any other action.

mathie · 16-11-2016 11:06AM

ScumLord wrote: »

We can't really grow most grains here all that well. We can't grow a lot of things because it's just too wet, and the guys that do grow those things run the risk of losing entire crops to bad weather. So we're looking at importing the vast majority of those crops. This breakdown is supposed to make us think monetarily of animals and food, it only really makes sense if you're looking at land as purely a commodity to be exploited.

You say plant protein is better than animal protein and I'm sure there are plants that have higher protein content than animals but that's probably not true across the board. They've probably selected a specific plant and set it against animals. It's not like if I grow apples (which I couldn't grow in my part of the country, not in a financially viable way for the food industry at least) that I'm going to be able to replace meat in my diet with just those apples. Can we even grow this super plant they've used in the research?

I don't think this study takes everything into account and can be applied to Ireland in the same way it can be applied to the US. Bottom line is Ireland can produce great meat. Not so much for a lot of crops.

You have completely missed my point.
It's not about the "higher protein content" it's the fact that you can feed a steak to one person or feed plants to 34 people and the "cost" is the same.

I agree that Ireland can produce meat in it's fields of plenty and that's great but if you think that's the way that livestock are reared in America or wherever the majority of the worlds meat is produced then you're in for a surprise.

_Brian · 16-11-2016 11:13AM

mathie wrote: »

You have completely missed my point.
It's not about the "higher protein content" it's the fact that you can feed a steak to one person or feed plants to 34 people and the "cost" is the same.

I agree that Ireland can produce meat in it's fields of plenty and that's great but if you think that's the way that livestock are reared in America or wherever the majority of the worlds meat is produced then you're in for a surprise.

In fairness all we can do is manage our agriculture well.

The only control we have over American practices is to avoid buying their meat, but the EU seem insistent on striking a trade deal with America which will include free access for their meat, hormones and all.

Again it comes back to consumer power to purchase meat from ethically raised animals who have the best living standards possible. But currently 99% of our consumers seem to buy on price alone which never serves to get good results from either food quality or animal husbandry.

The same problem will be inherent in this protein crop, it will be grown in countries where agricultural practices are way beyond our control and influence.

mathie · 16-11-2016 11:25AM

_Brian wrote: »

I do sometimes feel that the whole "plant protein is best" lobby has sinister backgrounds. I feel it's being pushed by processors who are interested in us consuming more and more highly processed foods supplied from labs rather than farms, and it has to come from half way round the world.

Sinister? Really? "We recommend you eat some broccoli"
How is that sinister?

Any people that I've seen who recommend a plant-based diet are completely against highly processed foods.
It's totally against the mindset.
I've never seen a recommendation to eat "highly processed food supplied from labs" and there is no stipulation that "it has to come from half way round the world".

16-11-2016 11:26AM

FortySeven wrote: »

Vegans should clearly commit suicide to limit their impact on the environment. Veggies can be turned but the vegans are lost to us.......

Probably not as bad as the Jains - who I have been led to believe can be as extreme as sweeping the path before them as they go to remove the change they might stand on anything alive - and drink water through cheese cloth in order to minimize the quantity of living elements they consume.

Never gone down the vegetarian route myself. I do mean to sit down and consider the arguments for it but so far I have not heard many of them. I did make the attempt on boards once to talk to a vegetarian as to why they became a vegetarian.

They were keen until I pointed out that I _only_ wanted arguments against eating meat - not against the poor standards that some meat is farmed and produced. I _do_ try to source all my meat ethically - and where possible hunt it and catch it myself from the wild (fish and rabbit mostly and I keep geese and ducks and chickens myself too).

So they backed out because they - like I - realise that most of the arguments you tend to hear as to why you might want to be vegetarian are not arguments against eating meat - but arguments about the ethics of how we currently house and farm our meat.

Some day I must buy and read the Peter Singer book on the subject which is meant to be the go to book on the moral and ethical arguments related to meat consumption.

IsaacWunder · 16-11-2016 11:29AM

wakka12 wrote: »

What is the point of this article? The benefits to the environment and animal welfare from being vegan are absolutely massive, there is no other single thing you could do to help the planet more right now than become vegan, regardless of this revelation

It's a straw man argument. There's no revelation. What the fool believes he sees.

Vegans and Vegetarians Think They Don’t Kill Animals but They Do

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