Limerick-Ballybrophy Closure

Jamie2k9 · 15-11-2016 5:51pm #1

It has been revealed that the line is costing €550 per passengers to the taxpayer.....in contrast the DART is costing €0.90 per passenger.

Using the average of 73 passengers per day, over a year it's adds up to almost €14.5 million....

The full report should make interesting reading if published fully.

thomond2006 · 15-11-2016 5:57pm

While it's a pity to close public transport infrastructure, this line can't be allowed to continue at that cost. A motorway more or less runs alongside it, why would anyone who commutes to Limerick use a crawling train instead?

I just took a look at the times. The last train out of Limerick is at 16:55. How is anyone working a normal 9-5 in the city going to make that train?!

end of the road · 15-11-2016 6:02pm

yeah i'm sure it costs that much all right. if you believe that you will believe anything. they have spent plenty of money on it including new track but the speeds are still the same, i wonder was that cost added into the figure. and people wonder why some of us believe nothing out of CIE. ireland will end up with not a single jot of railway. we got nothing in return for the loss of south wexford. we will get nothing in return for this or limerick junction waterford when it is finally ran into the ground dispite money being spent on it. same nonsense, different line. which line will be next after those, ah, we all ready know

Jamie2k9 · 15-11-2016 6:06pm

end of the road wrote: »

yeah i'm sure it costs that much all right.
if you believe that you will believe anything.
they have spent plenty of money on it including new track but the speeds are still the same, i wonder was that cost added into the figure.
and people wonder why some of us believe nothing out of CIE.

Station staff, drivers, gate keepers, maintenance staff, guard.....easily 30-40 and all likely on a minimum of 30,000. The figures stack up pretty well.

Jamie2k9 · 15-11-2016 6:43pm

Full Report:

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/2016_Rail_Review_Report_Complete_Online.pdf

ClovenHoof · 15-11-2016 7:06pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Full Report:

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/2016_Rail_Review_Report_Complete_Online.pdf

End all these passenger services. Keep the track , and build the DARTunderground and these services may well come back.

Fund these rural lines and no interconnector and they'll kill all rail essentially.

Grow from the healthy roots. Not from the dying branches.

Del.Monte · 15-11-2016 7:09pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

While it's a pity to close public transport infrastructure, this line can't be allowed to continue at that cost. A motorway more or less runs alongside it, why would anyone who commutes to Limerick use a crawling train instead?

I just took a look at the times. The last train out of Limerick is at 16:55. How is anyone working a normal 9-5 in the city going to make that train?!

Why don't ask yourself why the timetable is so cockeyed - do you imagine that passengers requested the trains to run at useless times?

Del.Monte · 15-11-2016 7:10pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Temporarily close the line, upgrade the line over a period of 3-5 years... this should be the main Limerick to Dublin line...

People would happily use it if the line was upgraded to have decent speeds.

You keep on repeating this idea and it won't fly.

Del.Monte · 15-11-2016 7:17pm

The 'Nenagh/Thurles' line according to Newstalk's Shane Donoghue. :rolleyes: With intelligent analysis like that.....

ClovenHoof · 15-11-2016 7:18pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

You keep on repeating this idea and it won't fly.

The increased speed thing on these rural lines is something of a red herring. It can't be done without colossal sums of money. There is no serious demand for non Palerail services.

Look at the money spent on the catastrophe that is the WRC. A political decision made to indulge a parish priest, his professional victim complex groupies and a few trainspotters. Yet look at the mess it has caused.

CrowdedHouse · 15-11-2016 7:22pm

Would make a fine greenway

Del.Monte · 15-11-2016 7:24pm

Your chance to have a say here: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/consultations/consultation-on-rail-review-2016/

Sadly, I don't think it will make a jot of a difference as our 'leaders' know best and CIE's funding will be increased at the cost of throwing a few more lines overboard. However, the pitiful amount saved through further closures will not alter the bottom line and within a few years further closures will be on the cards - Tralee, Sligo, Westport, Ballina and Galway.

end of the road · 15-11-2016 7:26pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

End all these passenger services. Keep the track , and build the DARTunderground and these services may well come back.

Fund these rural lines and no interconnector and they'll kill all rail essentially.

Grow from the healthy roots. Not from the dying branches.

stealing others services to still not build another service elsewhere isn't really a solution. DU isn't going to be built regardless if every single bit of track outside dublin was closed. the political will to fund it isn't there because "reasons"
the only thing that will kill rail is simple politics both from government and CIE. once again, DU isn't going to be built. i no more like it then the next person but we get what we vote for.

Del.Monte wrote: »

Your chance to have a say here: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/consultations/consultation-on-rail-review-2016/

Sadly, I don't think it will make a jot of a difference as our 'leaders' know best and CIE's funding will be increased at the cost of throwing a few more lines overboard. However, the pitiful amount saved through further closures will not alter the bottom line and within a few years further closures will be on the cards - Tralee, Sligo, Westport, Ballina and Galway.

correct. they are playing this one slowly but the aim is to destroy our rail network. they must be stopped but how i don't know

L1011 · 15-11-2016 7:33pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Temporarily close the line, upgrade the line over a period of 3-5 years... this should be the main Limerick to Dublin line...

People would happily use it if the line was upgraded to have decent speeds.

The costs saved by doing so would not pay for the upgrade - as has been explained to you already.

Banjoxed · 15-11-2016 7:47pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Temporarily close the line, upgrade the line over a period of 3-5 years... this should be the main Limerick to Dublin line...

People would happily use it if the line was upgraded to have decent speeds.

There is no such thing as a temporary closure. That was the diddicoy excuse given for the suspension of Rosslare-Waterford.

Del.Monte · 15-11-2016 7:51pm

Newstalk Breakfast will be doing a big piece on this tomorrow according to a promo this evening. We can expect ill informed, anti-rail Shane Coleman to do his usual trashy piece. He did some memorable anti-rail work for the Sunday Tribune if memory serves.

Banjoxed · 15-11-2016 8:59pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Newstalk Breakfast will be doing a big piece on this tomorrow according to a promo this evening. We can expect ill informed, anti-rail Shane Coleman to do his usual trashy piece. He did some memorable anti-rail work for the Sunday Tribune if memory serves.

Yup. I can dig out the cuttings from the time. Ireland's anti rail trail can disappear off the web periodically but hard copy beats online every time.

Del.Monte · 15-11-2016 9:37pm

Banjoxed wrote: »

Yup. I can dig out the cuttings from the time. Ireland's anti rail trail can disappear off the web periodically but hard copy beats online every time.

Just heard the promo again and it's referred to as 'Ghost Trains' so you can expect some serious research to have gone into it - lots of minibus and taxi stories no doubt.

thomond2006 · 15-11-2016 10:04pm

What's the motivation for Irish Rail to cannabalise their own rail network?

n97 mini · 15-11-2016 10:07pm

Page 18 says 0.0119 million passenger journeys to Navan?

jimmy180sx · 15-11-2016 10:18pm

Great report...I stopped reading after the executive summary. 42million passengers on page 2, 40 million in the intro

Banjoxed · 15-11-2016 10:28pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

What's the motivation for Irish Rail to cannabalise their own rail network?

That is a very good question which I strongly doubt RTÉ's Prime Time will attempt to answer, let alone put the question.

JMT2016 · 15-11-2016 10:35pm

jimmy180sx wrote: »

Great report...I stopped reading after the executive summary. 42million passengers on page 2, 40 million in the intro

40m in 2015, 42m expected in 2016

n97 mini · 16-11-2016 12:38am

Go to public consultation. Ask people what times they want trains, and to where. Adjust timetable to give the people what they (say they) want. If there's no marked increase in patronage then close it.

There is no point in keeping a railway line open just because it's a railway line. People need to use it, or lose it.

elperello · 16-11-2016 1:01am

People celebrating this line closing as a white elephant are doing exactly what Irish Rail higher ups have wanted for years. The line has been allowed go to this state so they could justify closing it. Well they are getting their way and people are losing their rail public transport.

I suppose their timing would have nothing to do with the fact that Tipperary has no Government TD to put a spanner in their works.

n97 mini · 16-11-2016 1:16am

Deedsie wrote: »

If you actually want people to use the line it needs to be upgraded and the journey times improved. That is the only way people will use it. Alan Kelly was 100% correct on Primetime tonight. Upgrade the line, remove the level crossings and manual accommodation gates and you would have a viable alternative to the private car for journeys.

There is a huge gamble in upgrading the line, which may not pay off. So start with baby steps. If, with a popular timetable, sufficient people turn up to actually use it, then talk about the next step.

With only two small population centres of note, Roscrea with a little over 5000, and Nenagh with 8000, I can't see it producing enough patronage. In fact, an airport in between the two would possibly require less subvention.

n97 mini · 16-11-2016 1:23am

Deedsie wrote: »

Can only help their treachery :-) If anyone here thinks I am raving or demanding 10's of millions to upgrade this line straight away I am not. The line should have been gradually upgraded over the last few decades

Lines like the Maynooth line have seen little investment too, despite carrying an order of magnitude more people. God knows when I started using it in 1999/2000 we didn't have a Sunday service, and no trains between 5.50pm and 9.15pm. Now we have a Sunday service the last train is at a woefully early 8.40pm.

Deedsie wrote: »

There are plenty of far more deserving projects that deserve immediate investment but it will be a disappointing sight when we rip up even more railway lines.

There are more deserving projects that are being robbed of funding. As I said earlier there is no point in keeping a railway line open just because it's a railway line. It needs the population and patronage to support it. Many of our railway lines were built in the 1800s and there is no way they would be built now.

jacksie66 · 16-11-2016 1:31am

This post has been deleted.

n97 mini · 16-11-2016 1:39am

Deedsie wrote: »

Nenagh Municipal District has a population of 40000. Nenagh town and environs is more like 10000. The populations of the town alone is not reflective of potential users of the train.

2011 census says 8439. I doubt it has grown by 25% since then. Anyone beyond that needs a car to get to the station, so it's unknown how many would take the train.

By any measure, that's still a small town. Navan has a population of 28559 and there is no funding to re-open the railway.

Deedsie wrote: »

They have tried your plan of adjusting the timetable (during the recession) and it didn't work as journey times are too slow and the line needs to be upgraded.

I'm aware it was tried, and I'm also aware it resulted in no significant change. So try it again. See what happens.

n97 mini · 16-11-2016 1:41am

Deedsie wrote: »

http://www.irishrail.ie/timetables/live-map-intercity/?

Go to the Maynooth line and flick on and off bridges and level crossings.

Now compare that with the Nenagh line. That's the reason one line is succesful and one line has been left in the hope it will rot away and be closed.

The Maynooth line serves several extremely densely populated areas. The Nenagh line doesn't!

end of the road · 16-11-2016 1:42am

subsidising an airport would be cheeper then subsidising a rail line, i've heard it all now.
i hate to have to state the obvious again but any other projects that need doing aren't going to be done when this line closes. the line will close and it will be on to the next one to shut and the other projects won't get done. we all know this.

n97 mini · 16-11-2016 1:43am

Deedsie wrote: »

Town 8000 & Environs/suburbs technically outside the town but just on the periphery 2000 brings the population for the purposes of the viability of a train to 10000

For comparison purposes we can only go on the official stats, and not on heresay.

n97 mini · 16-11-2016 1:45am

Deedsie wrote: »

Why waste the money trying, temporarily close it, remove the level crossings, upgrade and automate the accommodations gates and bridges and then reopen the line as an actual viable alternative.

Because, as I said already, the gamble is too large. The evidence suggests the population centres are so small that there will never be significant traffic.

end of the road · 16-11-2016 1:49am

Deedsie wrote: »

Why waste the money trying, temporarily close it, remove the level crossings, upgrade and automate the accommodations gates and bridges and then reopen the line as an actual viable alternative.

more chance of me being taoiseach then that happening. i agree with you though.

n97 mini · 16-11-2016 1:51am

end of the road wrote: »

subsidising an airport would be cheeper then subsidising a rail line, i've heard it all now.
i hate to have to state the obvious again but any other projects that need doing aren't going to be done when this line closes. the line will close and it will be on to the next one to shut and the other projects won't get done. we all know this.

Maybe do some research before you post, but for the record, the subvention per passenger from Donegal airport was €84 in 2009 (here, page 33). It's probably higher now, but I'd be pretty sure it's well off €550 as reported today.

ongarboy · 16-11-2016 1:55am

Interesting that none of the daily commuters on the line wanted to be interviewed by Prime Time tonight as they were "too tired and wanted to go home". Was that a symptom of the unpleasantly slow service?

Instead Mary and Johnny who like to do a bit of shopping once in the blue moon in Dublin were interviewed and said it was vital for them. Not sure why they'd be allergic to taking a bus or even a goverment funded private luxury limousine which would still be cheaper than what it takes to fund each individual rail passenger journey.

It's a shame that such routes need to be discontinued but taxpayer's money is too precious to be wasted on romantic nice to have notions when there are much cheaper alternative transport options such as taking the bus on the continuous motorways that connect Tipp to Dublin. The fact that the woefully unconvincing Alan Kelly took his kids on that train a few times is not justification enough to retain it.

end of the road · 16-11-2016 2:57am

n97 mini wrote: »

Maybe do some research before you post, but for the record, the subvention per passenger from Donegal airport was €84 in 2009 (here, page 33). It's probably higher now, but I'd be pretty sure it's well off €550 as reported today.

you are assuming i believe this €550 figure.

ongarboy wrote: »

Instead Mary and Johnny who like to do a bit of shopping once in the blue moon in Dublin were interviewed and said it was vital for them. Not sure why they'd be allergic to taking a bus or even a goverment funded private luxury limousine which would still be cheaper than what it takes to fund each individual rail passenger journey.

because the bus would not meet their needs. if it did then they would be taking the existing services which exist a plenty.

ongarboy wrote: »

It's a shame that such routes need to be discontinued but taxpayer's money is too precious to be wasted on romantic nice to have notions when there are much cheaper alternative transport options such as taking the bus on the continuous motorways that connect Tipp to Dublin.

they're is plenty of tax money to invest in infrastructure and upgrade the existing network and more. the political will isn't there however but that doesn't mean it won't be. the cheeper alternatives like the bus on the motor way do not and never will meet the needs of those who are using the railway and nothing can be done to change that. we will use whatever method that meets our needs and one will just have to like it.

ongarboy wrote: »

The fact that the woefully unconvincing Alan Kelly took his kids on that train a few times is not justification enough to retain it.

no but the fact it provides a service to people who would not use public transport, and the fact that if upgraded it can take traffic off the roads is .

MGWR · 16-11-2016 5:57am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It has been revealed that the line is costing €550 per passengers to the taxpayer.....in contrast the DART is costing €0.90 per passenger.

Using the average of 73 passengers per day, over a year it's adds up to almost €14.5 million....

The full report should make interesting reading if published fully.

LOL "revealed". What's been "revealed" is IE's playing with the books.

Continued state ownership of railways will lead to further balkanisation of the system. Time to call for a referendum on privatisation.

JMT2016 · 16-11-2016 11:52am

The money saved from closing the lines should be taken from cie and diverted into building proper roads serving tipperary e.g. N24 then a bus service could be a viable public transport alternative.

JMT2016 · 16-11-2016 1:06pm

Deedsie wrote: »

We have more than enough cars on the road in Ireland. Roads have received many many more €'s of funding compared to rail infrastructure. Should the N24 be upgraded, of course.

But so should the rail lines.

I totally agree but that doesn't seem likely.

What is probable is that the rail will close, the roads won't be upgraded but all of a sudden the Dodder Greenway will magically get funded because "we have more than enough cars on the road in Ireland" to use your argument! . The real effect is direct transfer of funding out of Tipp and into Dublin.

A public transport alternative should be campaigned for and a bus on a good road is a viable alternative.

end of the road · 16-11-2016 1:09pm

JMT2016 wrote: »

I totally agree but that doesn't seem likely.

What is probable is that the rail will close, the roads won't be upgraded but all of a sudden the Dodder Greenway will magically get funded because "we have more than enough cars on the road in Ireland" to use your argument! . The real effect is direct transfer of funding out of Tipp and into Dublin.

A public transport alternative should be campaigned for and a bus on a good road is a viable alternative.

busses all ready exist though for the demand that require them.

Idbatterim · 16-11-2016 1:11pm

Go to public consultation. Ask people what times they want trains, and to where. Adjust timetable to give the people what they (say they) want. If there's no marked increase in patronage then close it.

I totally agree with this, the thing is though, on some lines even a several fold rise in passenger numbers, would still mean they are heavily loss making. Does anyone believe PAYING passenger numbers would rise several fold?

JMT2016 · 16-11-2016 1:38pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Its already been tried on the Nenagh line. Times are an issue but journey times are far more significant problem. Its too slow

Page 81 of the report makes for sad reading on the "commuting into Limerick" section. Less than 1 p.c. and "extremely challenging" to develop they say

1.6.5CommutingintoLimerick• Atpresentlessthan1%ofcommuterdemandismetbyrail.• TraveldemandfortripstoworkwithdestinationsinLimerickCityextendstoEnnis,includingSixmilebridge,ontheGalway-Limerickline• DemandfortraveltoworkintoLimerickfromwithinthesettlementsontheLimerick-Ballybrophyraillineislow(approx.600peoplefromallsettlementsalongtheline).• AswithinGalway,theseparationofmajoremploymentdestinationsfromLimerickColbertstationhasfurtherlimitedtheabilityofrailtomeetcommuterdemandandjourneytimesbyroadareoftenquickerthanbyrail.• Asasmallcity,withadispersedlow-densitypopulation,itislikelytoremainextremelychallengingforrailtoplayasignificantroleinLimerick.• ThepotentialexceptiontothisisfortravelfromEnnisandsurroundsintoLimerickbyrail.

Idbatterim · 16-11-2016 1:42pm

Its already been tried on the Nenagh line. Times are an issue but journey times are far more significant problem. Its too slow

what is the cost to make them compete? even if they can then compete with a car or bus, will the line still be loss making and if so, how much roughly?

n97 mini · 16-11-2016 2:18pm

^ That map is not accurate. Several bridges are marked as level crossings. Even brand new ones.

n97 mini · 16-11-2016 2:52pm

Sorry my bad, just noticed that for some reason the map on the IE website doesn't show the M7 for some reason.

ClovenHoof · 16-11-2016 5:46pm

No matter how you look at it that report makes very grim reading for every rail line outside the GDR, And to Cork, Limerick and Belfast.

I knew things were bad for inter city travel but not as bad as this. We live in a very different Ireland now. Maybe we need a rail network to reflect this.

Motorways and bus services are not going away. BE is offering ostensibly 24 hour service on all their expressway routes now to Dublin Airport, while IE turn the PPT into a 15 year drama.

I agree with the recommendations of this report.

ClovenHoof · 16-11-2016 6:48pm

Deedsie wrote: »

The way they are reported it would be strange if you took any other opinion. The rail network is potentially a great infrastructural resource but it needs funding comparable to our roads investments.

All true. Just concentrate it all on Palerail and it will prosper and grow.

tabbey · 16-11-2016 9:51pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Lines like the Maynooth line have seen little investment too, despite carrying an order of magnitude more people. God knows when I started using it in 1999/2000 we didn't have a Sunday service, and no trains between 5.50pm and 9.15pm. Now we have a Sunday service the last train is at a woefully early 8.40pm.

The Maynooth line has had substantial investment in the last fifteen years.
Clonsilla - Maynooth double track restored.
New footbridges at most or all stations.
New station at Confey.
Platforms extended to eight cars.
New buildings at most stations.

ongarboy · 17-11-2016 12:25am

end of the road wrote: »

because the bus would not meet their needs. if it did then they would be taking the existing services which exist a plenty.

Can you explain why a bus that would get a passenger from A to B in about the same or probably quicker journey time would not meet the needs of someone? What needs would justify taxpayers money being spent on an infinitely more expensive service? The tea trolley?

Shannon757 · 17-11-2016 12:32am

Deedsie wrote: »

Most coaches aren't wheel chair accessible.

Which coaches are these? Most if not all BE coaches on this route and most others in the country are wheelchair accessible

Limerick-Ballybrophy Closure

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