Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

Zubeneschamali · 09-11-2016 10:16AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

wtf is airstrip one?

so all countries in the eu should be treated equal, but some more equal than others?

Strange, you miss a 1984 reference, and then add an Animal Farm one

And yes, allowances are made within the EU for the fact that countries are different. For example, the UK under Thatcher negotiated a big rebate on their contributions.

Fratton Fred · 09-11-2016 11:11AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Strange, you miss a 1984 reference, and then add an Animal Farm one

And yes, allowances are made within the EU for the fact that countries are different. For example, the UK under Thatcher negotiated a big rebate on their contributions.

I got bored of 1984, I thought animal farm was crap, but it was compulsory in school.

allowances are made for all countries, some don't have allowances, but choose to ignore the rules anyway.

Fratton Fred · 09-11-2016 11:30AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They have all been mentioned before, many times. Schengen, Monetary union, human rights, Justice and Home Affairs etc. And a less than wholehearted Remain campaign.

explain how any of those are "Holding back the union"?

Surely countries constantly breaking the deficit rules holds back the monetary union more? or a country forcibly evicting 10,000 Romani immigrants is holding back the union as far as Human Rights go?

Is providing illegal tax breaks to your local power companies not holding back the union?

How about constantly vetoing plans to close Strasbourg and save the union hundreds of million per year? is that holding back the union?

FA Hayek · 09-11-2016 12:32PM

seamus wrote: »

Potaytoes, potahtoes.

Nationalism is for idiots and bigots. It's nearly as dumb as religion and just as divisive and damaging.

Ah, so thats the smug attitude that explains why trump won.

Dyr · 09-11-2016 12:38PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Strange, you miss a 1984 reference, and then add an Animal Farm one

And yes, allowances are made within the EU for the fact that countries are different. For example, the UK under Thatcher negotiated a big rebate on their contributions.

Orwell was a fookin tout.

FrancieBrady · 09-11-2016 12:42PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

explain how any of those are "Holding back the union"?

Surely countries constantly breaking the deficit rules holds back the monetary union more? or a country forcibly evicting 10,000 Romani immigrants is holding back the union as far as Human Rights go?

Is providing illegal tax breaks to your local power companies not holding back the union?

How about constantly vetoing plans to close Strasbourg and save the union hundreds of million per year? is that holding back the union?

Whatever your opinion of it is, a common currency was only ever going to work properly if everybody was on board and if everything was fully integrated.

It remains to be seen how the EU will react to Britain leaving but NOT having a stubborn child sulking in the corner will make running the house easier. That is just basic common sense.

FrancieBrady · 09-11-2016 12:43PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Strange, you miss a 1984 reference, and then add an Animal Farm one

And yes, allowances are made within the EU for the fact that countries are different. For example, the UK under Thatcher negotiated a big rebate on their contributions.

:D:D

Fratton Fred · 09-11-2016 01:06PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Whatever your opinion of it is, a common currency was only ever going to work properly if everybody was on board and if everything was fully integrated.

why? Surely governments sticking to fiscal policies was the only way it was going to work.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

remains to be seen how the EU will react to Britain leaving but NOT having a stubborn child sulking in the corner will make running the house easier. That is just basic common sense.

A stubborn sulking child? Like countries that reject eu treaties, or demand special clauses?

FrancieBrady · 09-11-2016 01:21PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

why? Surely governments sticking to fiscal policies was the only way it was going to work.

It needed everybody on board to work. I think that is now plainly evident.

The Sterling opt out supporters like to forget that Britain had a double dip recession too.

A stubborn sulking child? Like countries that reject eu treaties, or demand special clauses?

Countries rejected treaties but didn't reject revised versions of those treaties.
OPT OUTS are rejections, permanent rejections.

Fratton Fred · 09-11-2016 02:31PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Countries rejected treaties but didn't reject revised versions of those treaties.
OPT OUTS are rejections, permanent rejections.

No, as the UK has previously demonstrated, an opt out is "not at the moment, thank you", or "OK, we agree to all the points, bar those two".

suicide_circus · 09-11-2016 04:28PM

seamus wrote: »

Potaytoes, potahtoes.

Nationalism is for idiots and bigots. It's nearly as dumb as religion and just as divisive and damaging.

not so sure about that. governments looking after the national self interest first is hardly dumb.

FrancieBrady · 09-11-2016 06:55PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, as the UK has previously demonstrated, an opt out is "not at the moment, thank you", or "OK, we agree to all the points, bar those two".

You can continue to pretend that the UK stance on a whole raft of EU policy has not hurt the development of that union and that has not rankled among other members.

jmayo · 09-11-2016 07:14PM

seamus wrote: »

Potaytoes, potahtoes.

Nationalism is for idiots and bigots. It's nearly as dumb as religion and just as divisive and damaging.

I said peoples and states should look after their own interests, but you decide to take a pop at the type of nationalism probably exhibited by the likes Milosevic.

Why does your statement drip with a condescending air of superiority ?

Reminds me of why Brexit happened and why Trump is now in the White House.

Then again it also reminds me of when some people make pronouncements about Irish families handling of mental illness, all the while of course trying desperately to show their supposed superiority.
It is such a pity when they get things completely ar**ways and totally misread the actual true situation.
Of course they would never admit to getting it ar**ways, now would they :rolleyes:

Fratton Fred · 09-11-2016 07:15PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You can continue to pretend that the UK stance on a whole raft of EU policy has not hurt the development of that union and that has not rankled among other members.

Just as you are more than welcome to continue your beliefs that the UK has somehow "Held Back" the eu, despite not actually being able to demonstrate how it has.

FrancieBrady · 09-11-2016 08:11PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Just as you are more than welcome to continue your beliefs that the UK has somehow "Held Back" the eu, despite not actually being able to demonstrate how it has.

The UK has put the spanner in the works many times.
Ask the creators of a treaty, created as recently as 2011 to tackle a europe wide problem, if they think the UK held back the EU and looked after their own interest.
Cameron started the ball rolling that got us to here that day.

The time has come and gone for the UK, and we have the answer to the question - 'are you on the team or not?' - at long last.

Capt'n Midnight · 09-11-2016 09:42PM

So how will Trump's 'America First' worldview help the UK when they've to negotiate a new trade agreement with the US post Brexit ?

Already talking about tearing up agreements with Mexico and that's sent their currency south.

FrancieBrady · 09-11-2016 09:55PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

So how will Trump's 'America First' worldview help the UK when they've to negotiate a new trade agreement with the US post Brexit ?

Already talking about tearing up agreements with Mexico and that's sent their currency south.

The consensus (wishful thinking possibly) in the BBC studios around 4 or 5am this AM was he would be easier to deal with but that the Senate and HOR might not be.

seamus · 09-11-2016 10:03PM

FA Hayek wrote: »

Ah, so thats the smug attitude that explains why trump won.

So because I said something was stupid, people went and did the stupid thing to spite me?

Because that's stupid. You're basically proving my point.

suicide_circus wrote: »

not so sure about that. governments looking after the national self interest first is hardly dumb.

That's governance though, not nationalism. Local councils look after the local self interest first. They're not being "localist", they're just administrating the local area.

That's essential because you cannot expect a centrally-elected parliament to oversee the functioning of everything down to street level. Power must be devolved hierarchically where each step has the powers and remit appropriate to the size of the division it oversees.

National governments in general have no higher authority, hence it becomes a tussle between them for the most favourable outcome for their "division", but it's still not nationalism. Nationalism is the pursuit of national goals and ideals without due to regard to any other nation, and often to the detriment of other nations.

It is the belief that your nation is superior to all other nations and therefore entitled to the most favourable terms. This is demonstrably false no matter what country you happen to live in, therefore it's irrational and dumb.

Nationalism is Israel ignoring UN security council resolutions. Governance is Germany voluntarily signing up to carbon emissions agreements.

seamus · 09-11-2016 10:05PM

jmayo wrote: »

Of course they would never admit to getting it ar**ways, now would they :rolleyes:

I wonder will you admit to not reading the thread you're referring to and making false assumptions of your own?

<insert rolleyes here to illustrate how bored I am of this discussion and sarcastically smug in my own sense of self-righteousness>

Junkyard Tom · 09-11-2016 11:20PM

seamus wrote: »

Nationalism is the pursuit of national goals and ideals without due to regard to any other nation, and often to the detriment of other nations.

A definition taken from Seamuspedia.org is it?

Civic nationalism, also known as liberal nationalism, is a kind of nationalism identified by political philosophers who believe in a non-xenophobic form of nationalism compatible with values of freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights.

Wikipedia.org

Fratton Fred · 09-11-2016 11:51PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The UK has put the spanner in the works many times.
Ask the creators of a treaty, created as recently as 2011 to tackle a europe wide problem, if they think the UK held back the EU and looked after their own interest.
Cameron started the ball rolling that got us to here that day.

The time has come and gone for the UK, and we have the answer to the question - 'are you on the team or not?' - at long last.

so basically, a small country vetoing an eu motion that isn't in its interests is a sign of democracy, but the UK doing it is putting a spanner in the works.

FrancieBrady · 09-11-2016 11:56PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so basically, a small country vetoing an eu motion that isn't in its interests is a sign of democracy, but the UK doing it is putting a spanner in the works.

It the scale of how they did it Fred, right across the scope of what the EU was trying to do.

Time to see how they will actually fare on their own.

09-11-2016 11:59PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It the scale of how they did it Fred, right across the scope of what the EU was trying to do.

Time to see how they will actually fare on their own.

With the US about to go down a similar isolationist route, maybe better than some here want to believe.

wes · 10-11-2016 01:08AM

Deleted User wrote: »

With the US about to go down a similar isolationist route, maybe better than some here want to believe.

Surely its a bit of disaster, as they need trade deals, and if Trump goes Anti-free trade and don't get a good deal with the EU, it may actually be far worse.

10-11-2016 04:17AM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Civic nationalism, also known as liberal nationalism, is a kind of nationalism identified by political philosophers who believe in a non-xenophobic form of nationalism compatible with values of freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights.

Wikipedia.org

Just shows that everything can be made politically correct with words...just words..

Peregrinus · 10-11-2016 04:19AM

And everything you don't understand or can't articulate an argument against can be dismissed with the magic phrase "politically correct" which, again, is . . . just words.

10-11-2016 08:43AM

wes wrote: »

Surely its a bit of disaster, as they need trade deals, and if Trump goes Anti-free trade and don't get a good deal with the EU, it may actually be far worse.

Trade for trade's sake, the very essence of globalisation the unnecessary import and export of goods and services that can easily be made locally by local people.
The people are now rejecting globalisation, Brexit and Trump getting elected are clear signs of that rejection.

catbear · 10-11-2016 08:46AM

One thing is for sure protectionist nations don't unite so I can't see trump being of any use to post brexit Britain, in fact I see the opposite.

Four months from now we may be as clueless as to what the trump presidency means as we are about brexit!

10-11-2016 08:53AM

Protectionist nations would work differently with each other, in the sense that they'll only trade stuff that they can't source internally.
In other words, if the widgets can be sourced locally, then they'll be bought locally.
Unlike globalisation where a retailer will source widgets from the other side of the planet rather than the factory down the road.

Fratton Fred · 10-11-2016 09:09AM

catbear wrote: »

One thing is for sure protectionist nations don't unite!

The French seem quite happy to join a union.

Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

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