Does filling a car with petrol count as a debt?

maki · 08-11-2016 09:46AM #1

Just a hypothetical which popped into my head today.

As far as I understand, legal tender only has to be accepted by law for settlement of a debt. So if I turn up at a shop counter to buy a bag of crisps, the operator is fully within their rights to not accept my legal tender and to refuse the transaction.

However, if I fill my car with petrol, and given that it's not exactly feasible to extract that petrol back out, does that count as a debt to the shop, and that therefore the operator must accept legal tender?

Peregrinus · 08-11-2016 09:58AM

This is analogous to the restaurant situation. You go in, order and eat a meal. You are then presented with the bill. Are you indebted to the restauranteur for the amount of the bill? Yes, is the answer, unless there is an error in the bill or a breach of some term of the contract that was formed when you ordered the meal or, at latest, when you ate it. And, since there's a debt there, the restaurateur can't refuse legal tender in settlement.

I think the same would hold good for the garage case. They offer to sell petrol at so much a litre. You accept the offer by taking the petrol. A contract is formed, and you are indebted to the garage for the price of the petrol. In the absence of a special term in the contract, they cannot refuse to accept legal tender in settlement of the debt. (But why would they?)

Avatar MIA · 08-11-2016 10:21AM

maki wrote: »

the operator must accept legal tender?

You've been answered above I think, but they could waive their entitlement I suppose.

Although, technically they would still have to record it as a sale and pay the VAT and the Corporation Tax based on the incremental increase in Revenue.

plodder · 08-11-2016 10:31AM

An interesting scenario might be if you put ten euro worth of petrol in the car, and then try to pay with a 500 euro note.

seamus · 08-11-2016 10:34AM

plodder wrote: »

An interesting scenario might be if you put ten euro worth of petrol in the car, and then try to pay with a 500 euro note.

The garage would of course be entitled to take the €500 and provide no change.

If you weren't happy with that, they could give you the opportunity to go off and get a tenner

Peregrinus · 08-11-2016 10:49AM

You're not obliged to offer more than you owe in settlement of your debt but if you do the creditor can accept it.

The creditor isn't obliged to make change.

If all you have is a €500 note and the garage can't, or isn't willing, to make change immediately in legal tender, your choices are:

- Pay €500 and forego the change.

- Pay €500 and negotiate with the garage about getting change at a later date, or by non-legal tender (e.g a cheque).

- Negotiate with the garage about coming back later to pay the debt.

- Run!

[The last option is not advised.]

There is, to my lasting regret, no option whereby your debt is eliminated without you having to pay it.

plodder · 08-11-2016 10:53AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

You're not obliged to offer more than you owe in settlement of your debt but if you do the creditor can accept it.

The creditor isn't obliged to make change.

If all you have is a €500 note and the garage can't, or isn't willing, to make change immediately in legal tender, your choices are:

- Pay €500 and forego the change.

- Pay €500 and negotiate with the garage about getting change at a later date, or by non-legal tender (e.g a cheque).

- Negotiate with the garage about coming back later to pay the debt.

- Run!

[The last option is not advised.]

There is, to my lasting regret, no option whereby your debt is eliminated without you having to pay it.

I assume you mean the creditor isn't obliged to immediately provide change in legal tender, but he would be liable for the amount as a debt, and couldn't force you to write if off?

Peregrinus · 08-11-2016 11:04AM

No. Unless there's a term in the contract specifying this, he can't be obliged to make change. Most creditors will of course make reasonable change because they have an interest in facilitating the payment, and in a retail situation I think the courts would have little difficulty in implying a term requiring the garage in this situation to make reasonable change. But if you offer someone a high-value banknote in settlement of a trivial amount, you do not thereby impose upon him an obligation to make change. If you're not happy to pay him €500, don't offer him a €500 note, is the strict position.

To put it another way, if you owe somebody €10, say, you can't unilaterally make it a term of the contract that you only have to settle your debt if he can make change of €500. If an offer to settle a debt is to defeat later attempts to enforce the debt, it's not enough that the offer was of legal tender; it must also have been unconditional. So an offer to pay, conditional on the vendor making change, isn't enough.

johnnyskeleton · 08-11-2016 11:34AM

The law in relation to legal tender in satisfaction of a debt creates a defence whereby if you are sued you can claim that you offered legal tender and that offer was rejected.

None of this was ever intended to permit people to walk into a shop with a big bag of one cent coins and demand that the shopkeeper accept them.

Avatar MIA · 08-11-2016 11:50AM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

None of this was ever intended to permit people to walk into a shop with a big bag of one cent coins and demand that the shopkeeper accept them.

That's because, AFAIK, small change is only legal tender up to a certain limit, which I think is quite small.

plodder · 08-11-2016 11:55AM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The law in relation to legal tender in satisfaction of a debt creates a defence whereby if you are sued you can claim that you offered legal tender and that offer was rejected.

But, if the posters above are correct the offer has to be unconditional (on getting change)

None of this was ever intended to permit people to walk into a shop with a big bag of one cent coins and demand that the shopkeeper accept them.

And there are specific provisions regulating how many coins have to be accepted I think (50?)

Avatar MIA · 08-11-2016 11:57AM

plodder wrote: »

And there are specific provisions regulating how many coins have to be accepted I think (50?)

Yip - from the Central Bank...

https://www.centralbank.ie/paycurr/notescoin/Pages/FrequentlyAskedQuestions.aspx

hullaballoo · 08-11-2016 12:43PM

This thread reminds me of when I was a student working in a pub and pre-crash, you would have assholes trying to pay for their round with €500 notes. These people would have had to order them specifically just to be a dick. Obviously, we never accepted them - maintaining a stock of small notes is essential in pubs, particularly since they primarily operate at times when the banks are all closed, so you would end up stuck in a bad way for change if you are accepting large notes.

One guy came in one day, middle of the afternoon, looking for change of a €200 but he didn't want to buy anything. I said we couldn't but the bank was still open and he'd be better off trying there. For some reason I'll never quite grasp, this really got under his skin and he said:

- "Ok smartass, give me a box of matches."
- "No problem, here you go."
- "How much are they?"
- "€199.50."
- ...
- ...
/leaves

GM228 · 08-11-2016 01:51PM

Avatar MIA wrote: »

That's because, AFAIK, small change is only legal tender up to a certain limit, which I think is quite small.

50 coins is the max to be legal tender under S10 of the Economic and Monetary Union Act 1998, so the maximum possible legal tender in change could be no more than €100.

Carawaystick · 08-11-2016 03:12PM

What would be the case where places have signs saying they wont accept 200/500 euro notes when the transaction price is close to that amount? like a 199.50 box of matches say?

I presume making a good faith effort to pay is a defence against theft?

mynamejeff · 08-11-2016 03:16PM

As i understand it the PSNI un north have decided to stop investigating "drive offs" where some one fails pay for petrol , this is due to the huge bulk of them and the fact that the majority are either lads who simply forgot or were chancing thier arm to see if they got away , after all the worst that would happen is you get a phone call from the police and go back and pay for it .

The psni are declining to investigate unless as formal complaint is made.

Fred Swanson · 08-11-2016 08:31PM

This post has been deleted.

coylemj · 08-11-2016 10:42PM

mynamejeff wrote: »

As i understand it the PSNI un north have decided to stop investigating "drive offs" where some one fails pay for petrol , this is due to the huge bulk of them and the fact that the majority are either lads who simply forgot or were chancing thier arm to see if they got away , after all the worst that would happen is you get a phone call from the police and go back and pay for it .

The psni are declining to investigate unless as formal complaint is made.

From the perspective of criminal law, the driver can claim that he forgot to pay or that he gave his son the money, the son went into the shop, hung around for a couple of minutes and dishonestly came out without paying so a prosecution against the driver is difficult. I know someone in that line of business in the south and she doesn't get very far with the cops down here either when that happens.

Last time I was buying petrol in Newry, there was a sign in the filling station stating that anyone with a southern registration had to pay in advance.

GM228 · 08-11-2016 10:49PM

coylemj wrote: »

From the perspective of criminal law, the driver can claim that he forgot to pay or that he gave his son the money, the son went into the shop, hung around for a couple of minutes and dishonestly came out without paying so a prosecution against the driver is difficult. I know someone in that line of business in the south and she doesn't get very far with the cops down here either when that happens.

Last time I was buying petrol in Newry, there was a sign in the filling station stating that anyone with a southern registration had to pay in advance.

Hypothetically could such be classed as discrimination I wonder? i.e being treated differently due to being perceived as being from a different jurisdiction?

coylemj · 08-11-2016 11:01PM

GM228 wrote: »

Hypothetically could such be classed as discrimination I wonder? i.e being treated differently due to being perceived as being from a different jurisdiction?

I don't think so, they're not discriminating on any of the prohibited grounds. They could validly claim that (legally) pursuing someone from another country (i.e. anywhere outside the UK) is uneconomic given the relative small amounts involved so they won't take the risk.

Charles Babbage · 08-11-2016 11:05PM

coylemj wrote: »

Last time I was buying petrol in Newry, there was a sign in the filling station stating that anyone with a southern registration had to pay in advance.

Considering that petrol is typically cheaper in the south, this wouldn't affect many people.

GM228 · 08-11-2016 11:14PM

coylemj wrote: »

I don't think so, they're not discriminating on any of the prohibited grounds. They could validly claim that (legally) pursuing someone from another country (i.e. anywhere outside the UK) is uneconomic given the relative small amounts involved so they won't take the risk.

I was thinking along the lines of race which would include nationality, that is one of the prohibited grounds.

Avatar MIA · 08-11-2016 11:16PM

GM228 wrote: »

I was thinking along the lines of race which would include nationality, that is one of the prohibited grounds.

Pretty sure we're the same race

coylemj · 08-11-2016 11:18PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Considering that petrol is typically cheaper in the south, this wouldn't affect many people.

Except the people who think that it's free whichever side of the border they're on.

sdanseo · 08-11-2016 11:21PM

I would say you enter into a contract by filling the car therefore establishing a debt.

Your shelf-edge label in a shop is the invitation to treat. Bringing it to the counter and having the salesperson ask for your money is an offer, handing over the money completes the contract.

The sign advertising the petrol price is an invitation to treat. The availability of the petrol (activated by the attendant) is the offer, and you dispensing it is acceptance because the petrol is consideration, it is of value. Contract completed?

*I know consumer law quite well but contract law not so well at all. Open to correction!

GM228 · 08-11-2016 11:23PM

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Pretty sure we're the same race

Indeed, but under the heading of "race" nationality is a ground for discrimination.

You can't discriminate against someone based on their nationality under the umbrella of the "race" ground. Treating someone differently who is driving a car from a different jurisdiction could possibly be considered discriminatory based on where they are from - i.e discrimination based on nationality. Mayby a bit of a stretch but nevertheless I'd say it could possibly be a breach.

Apologies if straying off-topic.

coylemj · 08-11-2016 11:32PM

GM228 wrote: »

Treating someone differently who is driving a car from a different jurisdiction could possibly be considered discriminatory based on where they are from.

I know where you're coming from but the filling station owner could defend the policy by stating that the staff are trained to apply the rule regardless of the person's appearance so it even applies to English, Welsh and Scottish people living in the 26 counties i.e. people who really are British and technically (when in Newry) in their home country.

Peregrinus · 09-11-2016 03:47AM

Carawaystick wrote: »

What would be the case where places have signs saying they wont accept 200/500 euro notes when the transaction price is close to that amount? like a 199.50 box of matches say?

I presume making a good faith effort to pay is a defence against theft?

You can always make a contract which specifies a particular mode of payment. If there's a notice up saying "sorry, we don't accept €500 notes", and that's displayed in a place where you will see it before you fill your car up with petrol/eat your meal, then it's a term of the contract that you are not entitled to settle your bill by offering a €500 note (even if your bill is €500). So, you offer the note, he refuses, you don't have a good defence when he later sues you on the bill.

Carawaystick · 09-11-2016 01:22PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

You can always make a contract which specifies a particular mode of payment. If there's a notice up saying "sorry, we don't accept €500 notes", and that's displayed in a place where you will see it before you fill your car up with petrol/eat your meal, then it's a term of the contract that you are not entitled to settle your bill by offering a €500 note (even if your bill is €500). So, you offer the note, he refuses, you don't have a good defence when he later sues you on the bill.

Fair enough on the civil side, but is it dishonest enough for a theft prosecution to succeed?

Peregrinus · 09-11-2016 02:44PM

I doubt if a prosecution for theft would succeed in those circumstances.

mynamejeff · 09-11-2016 07:28PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Considering that petrol is typically cheaper in the south, this wouldn't affect many people.

its very cheap if your just planning on buggering off over the boarder after

:D

Does filling a car with petrol count as a debt?

Comments