Louise O Neill on rape culture.

cloudatlas · 07-11-2016 10:14AM

ligerdub wrote: »

No, it was you who refered to the universities approach and that it what I had a problem with. I've no problem in them insisting on going forward to the guards, in fact I think they should. I also wouldn't contest the stat about prosecuted cases so I've nothing to add there.

We've had several instances on this board where people have claimed to have been assaulted or heard of rapes that have been acted on people they know. How many of these have been reported to the gardai? This is the action that needs taking.

What I have a problem with is a situation where organisations take these cases, believe the accuser, take action internally, but do nothing beyond that. Basically the accused is tarnished or kicked out of school. If he's guilty that's not enough, if he's innocent then he his life is in tatters through no fault of his own.

Please provide us with example of all of these cases. If that is indeed the case in small instances then explain why it is not effective to be supportive to people who are genuine. The university obviously produced these posters for a reason and it wasn't because the threat was small.

Advbrd · 07-11-2016 10:17AM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Wibbs you say that with all the flippancy and buoyancy of a man who does not want to see. How could you know!
Every woman, and I mean every woman I know has been sexually assaulted, and it is usually along the lines of what that girl said earlier on this thread: with a man that she knows who she may have been intimate with before, like a partner, who then a different time : assumes he can have what he wants and does not get her consent.
Consent is every time. Ongoing and every time. And I'm not blaming men here: I'm blaming culture, we have Donald Trump saying it's ok to grab women by the pussy, and then I was listening to an Irish radio show where rugby players were ringing in afterwards saying that it was normal locker room talk!
There's a great article I read recently: '7 reasons men don't understand consent' written by a man, where he said some really relevant points.
These are vital conversations that need to be had. Vital.

Every woman you know? Apologies, I find that really hard to believe.

The_Kew_Tour · 07-11-2016 10:18AM

timmy880 wrote: »

The issue with O'Neill is that she wants the topic discussed in further detail which her documentary has definitely achieved, no question about that.

But the problem is if you make an argument against the points she raised she immediately goes off on one and encourages her following to feed this person to the wolves. This is where she loses it. If you want a public conversation raised about very sensitive topics, surely you have to accept that there will be different opinions on said topic......?

Great point.

Someone else on boards said this before and it summed up it for me.

"Disagree with someone in 2016=Troll"

ash23 · 07-11-2016 10:22AM

Hang on a cotton picking second.. How in god's name does one not realise one has been assaulted? In any manner? It also begs the question - and heaven forfend I suggest some personal responsibility here - if I had been beaten up "several times" when I was drunk, yes I would have a major issue with those who beat me up and they would be directly responsible for the beatings, but I would think to myself "hang on, maybe I shouldn't get so drunk that being beaten up becomes a "thing" in my life".

OK not remotely past tipsy, yet this guy apparently stripped you of your clothing and you didn't notice? Secondly "a man" doesn't quite describe this guy does it? Makes him sound all random and predatory. This is a guy who you knew so well you wanted to be in a relationship with him at one point, who you had sex with a few times beforehand and who you "had a kiss" with that night. Did he cross a boundary? Hell yes he crossed a bloody boundary. Is it understandable why he might have thought this wasn't a boundary? Again yes.

You can't see any victim blaming in those comments? At all?
The incredulous way you ask why a woman might be confused about whether she'd been assaulted? The way you disbelieve me when I said I wasn't drunk - How did he get my clothes off without me noticing?
The way you'll make out that because I knew him it made it less predatory and different than a guy I didn't know doing the same thing? The saying it's understandable that he thought it wasn't a boundary because I knew him, liked him, had slept with him before and kissed him earlier that night? Putting the blame for it on me but dismissing what he did as "crossing a boundary" as opposed to the sexual assault that it was.

You're minimising what he did and putting the onus on me for what happened.

ligerdub · 07-11-2016 10:40AM

cloudatlas wrote: »

Please provide us with example of all of these cases. If that is indeed the case in small instances then explain why it is not effective to be supportive to people who are genuine. The university obviously produced these posters for a reason and it wasn't because the threat was small.

The university produce those posters because universities are increasingly becoming haven's for extreme liberal thoughts and do the bidding of groups with a vested interest in this type of protest.

Basically I have a problem with the following types of things:

http://www.bbc.com/news/education-37727416

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/backlash-college-men-challenge-guilty-until-proven-innocent-standard-for-sex-assault-cases/article/2551863

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/08/25/college-coach-i-was-fired-for-reporting-campus-rape-to-police.html

I'm done debating this particular point to be honest. It's a fairly straightforward logical reason why there shouldn't be policy of "we'll believe you if you report".

I've never said that genuine accusations shouldn't be given support, I'm not sure how you've deduced that. I've said before and I'll say it again, I encourage more victims of sexual offences to report their cases, I can't stress that enough. They should do so, and the policy around that should be fair, and should be made to the proper authorities, and I don't mean university campus administrators.

Wibbs · 07-11-2016 10:43AM

ash23 wrote: »

You can't see any victim blaming in those comments? At all?

OK let's run through them then…

The incredulous way you ask why a woman might be confused about whether she'd been assaulted?

Yep, you have me there alright. I am incredulous that anyone, man or woman would be confused about whether they were sexually assaulted or not. Oh and for the record I am not saying you weren't. Just so we're clear here.

*aside* that original Koss "1 in 4" study in the US that kicked all this off was also confusing, not least to the women she surveyed. Of the cases she classed as rape, over 70% of the women surveyed stated they didn't believe it was and nearly half of them were still in relationships with their "rapist". Still Koss ran with the rape stat to suit her foregone conclusion. Which I find ironic as well as confusing because the feminist mantra always holds that society must always support and believe women's testimony about their own experiences. Apparently not, if it doesn't suit...

The way you disbelieve me when I said I wasn't drunk - How did he get my clothes off without me noticing?

I'm still confused there TBH. I would completely understand waking up to a lifted skirt in mid assault. I would be more confused if someone removed clothing as you first stated without noticing. Note I didn't once question the act itself, regardless of clothes removed or not.

The way you'll make out that because I knew him it made it less predatory and different than a guy I didn't know doing the same thing?

Because quite logically it is different and less predatory.

The saying it's understandable that he thought it wasn't a boundary because I knew him, liked him, had slept with him before and kissed him earlier that night?

Yes, because logically it again is understandable. Not once have I said, nor think that this makes it justifiable. You do realise that there exists a difference between understanding a thing and condoning it?

Putting the blame for it on me but dismissing what he did as "crossing a boundary" as opposed to the sexual assault that it was.

Nope at no point have a I "blamed" you and while I have stated an understanding of why he might have wrongly assumed consent, at no point did I condone this muppet's actions. I don't now, just in case people get further confused.

You're minimising what he did and putting the onus on me for what happened.

Nope. I am not. But keep believing I am if it helps.

Mortpourvelo · 07-11-2016 10:50AM

Seriously, I would never wish to negate an "assault" - if that is what someone BELIEVES happened; but there is a huge difference between you boyfriend taking advantage when you are sleeping in the bed with him - and the use of rape as a weapon of war as in Bosnia, ISIS and Boko Harum.

Honertly - someone you have had sex with before and will do again - versus a child enduring FGM and then married off to a man older than her grandfather to be raped daily ?

Just no. Oh and female here btw, before the rampant misandry starts.

Gunslinger92 · 07-11-2016 10:57AM

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

Seriously, I would never wish to negate an "assault" - if that is what someone BELIEVES happened; but there is a huge difference between you boyfriend taking advantage when you are sleeping in the bed with him - and the use of rape as a weapon of war as in Bosnia, ISIS and Boko Harum.

Honertly - someone you have had sex with before and will do again - versus a child enduring FGM and then married off to a man older than her grandfather to be raped daily ?

Just no. Oh and female here btw, before the rampant misandry starts.

So... just because someone somewhere else has it worse, we should just ignore the fact that "lesser" assaults happen?

Mortpourvelo · 07-11-2016 10:59AM

Gunslinger92 wrote: »

So... just because someone somewhere else has it worse, we should just ignore the fact that "lesser" assaults happen?

No, just sick to death of silly girls who should know better claiming they were assaulted.

The one that destroyed Ched Evans' career had to Google "was I raped ?".

The low conviction rate would seem to be for a reason.

ZeroThreat · 07-11-2016 11:00AM

TaosHum wrote: »

I don't understand how someone who has proclaimed herself as being a misandrist can be expected to make an unbiased documentary on such a sensitive subject. This woman has books to sell, so of course she is going to pedal the existence of a rape culture in Ireland argument. Even if her argument is not financially motivated, the viewers skepticism of her motivation is still warranted.

If a documentary is to made on this subject, I'd rather it be done by someone who doesn't have something to gain from it. An unbiased piece of journalism, where the question of rape culture in Ireland can be evenly argued and also taking into account that men are also the victims of such abuse.

did she actually describe herself as this?

Also I never watch the programme, sounds like a load of rubbish to me, is she lesbian?

timmy880 · 07-11-2016 11:06AM

ZeroThreat wrote: »

did she actually describe herself as this?

Also I never watch the programme, sounds like a load of rubbish to me, is she lesbian?

Her Twitter bio used to say misandrist apparently. Whether that's serious or not I don't know

MichaelScarn · 07-11-2016 11:09AM

ZeroThreat wrote: »

did she actually describe herself as this?

Also I never watch the programme, sounds like a load of rubbish to me, is she lesbian?

Yes she had described herself as - "Feminist/Misandrist" in her Twitter bio. Lacking the courage in her convictions she has changed it to a snarky "Author. Feminist. I Love Men™ "

orubiru · 07-11-2016 11:15AM

timmy880 wrote: »

The issue with O'Neill is that she wants the topic discussed in further detail which her documentary has definitely achieved, no question about that.

But the problem is if you make an argument against the points she raised she immediately goes off on one and encourages her following to feed this person to the wolves. This is where she loses it. If you want a public conversation raised about very sensitive topics, surely you have to accept that there will be different opinions on said topic......?

Yes and as a result the conversation has essentially become a form of entertainment.

Think about the people giving her virtual high fives and likes over the documentary. There are people who loved it and have responded to it with a "you go girl" attitude.

I would question if this is an appropriate response to such a serious subject?

Louise O'Neill is a fiction writer, an entertainer. Sure her work has an "edge" because it focuses on serious subject matter but ultimately it's a way to make some money. More Drama = More Money.

I believe that all viewpoints on this conversation can agree that rape and sexual assault are serious problems.

However, if you start using "catch all" or nebulous terms such as "Rape Culture" and then proceed to argue with anyone who reckons that you might not be taking the correct approach? Well then you move from being a person having a serious conversation about a serious topic to being a person who is creating and revelling in drama.

If you are somehow able to take the perspective that rape is bad and we need to do our best to stop it and turn it into a full blown argument or, even worse, make it all about you then I would suggest that there is something seriously wrong with your approach.

At the very least you would think that some introspection is required.

It's fine to generate outrage but at some point you have to sit down and say "OK, we've got people's attention now how do we fix the problem".

OK so we agree that Rape is a problem? Yes.
Would you like to stop it? Yes.
Do you agree that we live in a rape culture? Um... no.
Oh... my... god... RAPE APOLOGIST! THIS DENIAL OF RAPE CULTURE IS THE ULTIMATE PROOF THAT WE LIVE IN A RAPE CULTURE! EVERYONE ON TWITTER LOOK AT THIS RAPE DENIER.

My personal experience is not dissimilar to this. I believe that there is a problem that needs to be solved. I believe that criminal justice system is broken in so many ways and I believe that education on relationships, sex and consent is woefully lacking.

However, I don't believe that those issues can be solved by taking the conversation and turning it into a provocative sermon or an irrational shouting match.

If anything, the fact that acts of rape and sexual assault are almost universally seen as abhorrent should alleviate the need for provocation and controversy. Maybe that's what causes the backlash though? Most people in society see these acts as despicable so when you claim that society normalises rape you look like a damn idiot.

Want to end rape culture? Please buy my book for the low low price of 9.99 to find out how. Don't be THAT guy.

Want to learn about how society normalises and encourages rape? Read my article online and don't forget to like and share so I can make more money... um... I mean... so we can spread the message. Don't be THAT guy.

As a society we are allowing these parasites to appropriate the suffering of actual victims, take the conversation WAY off the rails, ensure that the problem is never solved AND conveniently make a nice profit in the process.

"If you would like to contribute to Zarna's safety and well-being then go here to donate: https://www.youcaring.com/zarna-joshi-675039"

So many people in the "movement" are just toxic, narcissistic individuals who whip up controversy to make some cash with and nobody ever seems to call them on it.

Louise O'Neill is just another one of these individuals.

MichaelScarn · 07-11-2016 11:16AM

Louise O'Neill linked this article by Mullally on twitter - http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/una-mullally-toxic-sexism-becomes-the-new-normal-1.2856682

Contains the following gem -

"For centuries, men have existed in their own “safe spaces”, where the exclusion, subordination, objectification and demeaning of women was the norm."

Walter H Price · 07-11-2016 11:24AM

Sriously Rape hapens in every society all over the planet , rape does occur in Ireland but we have far from a rape culture.

This all started with colleges in America where rape is common and often covered up by university's to protect their reputations and in some cases athletes. Rape occurs in Ireland but it is not part of culture , its a fking criminal offence and is treated as such.

Maybe take a look at India , Pakistan, the rest of the Islamic world, most of Sub-Saharan Africa and southeast Asia if you want to see actual cultures where rape is a societal norm in certain parts.

We are far far removed from all of that

Mortpourvelo · 07-11-2016 11:24AM

MichaelScarn wrote: »

Louise O'Neill linked this article by Mullally on twitter - http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/una-mullally-toxic-sexism-becomes-the-new-normal-1.2856682

Contains the following gem -

"For centuries, men have existed in their own “safe spaces”, where the exclusion, subordination, objectification and demeaning of women was the norm."

Jesus as a woman I find that article offensive!!

Wtf is wrong with Una Mullally ???

I had the misfortune to be on a flight with a drunk hen party a few weeks ago - what they were coming out with would make Trump blush!

Works both ways girls.

Mortpourvelo · 07-11-2016 11:25AM

Walter H Price wrote: »

Sriously Rape hapens in every society all over the planet , rape does occur in Ireland but we have far from a rape culture.

This all started with colleges in America where rape is common and often covered up by university's to protect their reputations and in some cases athletes. Rape occurs in Ireland but it is not part of culture , its a fking criminal offence and is treated as such.

Maybe take a look at India , Pakistan, the rest of the Islamic world, most of Sub-Saharan Africa and southeast Asia if you want to see actual cultures where rape is a societal norm in certain parts.

We are far far removed from all of that

Exactly my point earlier, frightening to think there are people in this country that believe we are on a par with countries like that.

07-11-2016 11:28AM

It feels like "sexual abuse" is a phrase that is becoming ever skewed.

That parasite of a woman, Zarna, claimed she was abused by Hugh Mungus. Yet nothing suggests this was the case. She then had the gall of asking people to donate to her safety? F*ck her.

You know what Hugh Mungus did? He was interviewed by h3h3 productions and he asked people to donate money to a shelter for women dealing with severe mental illnesses and/or addictions, which helped his own daughter.

Just to add - I love h3h3's response to the parasite's video.

Gunslinger92 · 07-11-2016 11:31AM

MichaelScarn wrote: »

Louise O'Neill linked this article by Mullally on twitter - http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/una-mullally-toxic-sexism-becomes-the-new-normal-1.2856682

Contains the following gem -

"For centuries, men have existed in their own “safe spaces”, where the exclusion, subordination, objectification and demeaning of women was the norm."

people like Mullally have made me reluctant to call myself a feminist, prefer the term "equalist" or something now. she's a pure embarrassment

Mortpourvelo · 07-11-2016 11:32AM

Deleted User wrote: »

It feels like "sexual abuse" is a phrase that is becoming ever skewed.

That parasite of a woman, Zarna, claimed she was abused by Hugh Mungus. Yet nothing suggests this was the case. She then had the gall of asking people to donate to her safety? F*ck her.

You know what Hugh Mungus did? He was interviewed by h3h3 productions and he asked people to donate money to a shelter for women dealing with severe mental illnesses and/or addictions, which helped his own daughter.

I have huge problems with the "historical abuse" cases that are going on at the moment.

Firstly, the police should not start off by saying "come forward, you will be believed". So there goes innocent till proven guilty.

There is no forensic evidence; there is no witness evidence and there is no crime scene.

Just allegations. But lives are being ruined.

Water John · 07-11-2016 11:39AM

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/rape-consent-cork-jazz-column-jen-hough-3063524-Nov2016/
This is worth a read.
I think Louise may be extreme but abusing her does nothing for anyone's argument.
I would say to all, listen to how people feel.

The Specialist · 07-11-2016 11:40AM

orubiru wrote: »

"If you would like to contribute to Zarna's safety and well-being then go here to donate: https://www.youcaring.com/zarna-joshi-675039"

So many people in the "movement" are just toxic, narcissistic individuals who whip up controversy to make some cash with and nobody ever seems to call them on it.

Louise O'Neill is just another one of these individuals.

I have no idea who this woman is but from skipping through the video, she's a horribly misandrist self entitled ****ing pig.

timmy880 · 07-11-2016 11:41AM

An overview of O'Neill's writings:

LOUISE O'NEILL: Do men just instinctively dislike movies and TV shows that star women?
LOUISE O'NEILL: You’re not betraying the feminist cause by revelling in the pleasure of finding the perfect shade of red lipstick
LOUISE O'NEILL: I no longer want to be famous but I do think about how I would like to be remembered
LOUISE O'NEILL: Amanda Knox committed the 'sin' of openly enjoying her sexuality
LOUISE O'NEILL: When someone describes me as ladylike, I am always deeply offended

Yes there needs to be a conversation about the sexual culture in Ireland (refrain from rape culture label for now).

No, O'Neill should not be the moderator for the discussion. Absolutely not.

Walter H Price · 07-11-2016 11:42AM

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

Exactly my point earlier, frightening to think there are people in this country that believe we are on a par with countries like that.

It's sad actually that this crap is peddled and believed somewhere like here, realistically even incidence of criminal rape are low here compared with other western society's. we have plenty of unique elements to our culture some that are great like Gaelic games , Music , literature etc .. some not so great like our unhealthy relationship with alcohol and binge drinking.

Rape happens here and is treated and viewed as a crime by men and women , i know very few Irish lads that would view raping a girl as ok , their right or a bit of a laugh. in fact anytime i've seen a girl be mistreated by a lad in public in club whatever i have equally seen other lads step in , i myself have done it on 1 or 2 occasions.

we do not, 100% do not have a rape culture in this country , nor would one be tolerated by 99.9% of Irish Men and to suggest otherwise is deeply deeply misleading and offensive in my opinion.

Mortpourvelo · 07-11-2016 11:44AM

timmy880 wrote: »

An overview of O'Neill's writings:

LOUISE O'NEILL: Do men just instinctively dislike movies and TV shows that star women?
LOUISE O'NEILL: You’re not betraying the feminist cause by revelling in the pleasure of finding the perfect shade of red lipstick
LOUISE O'NEILL: I no longer want to be famous but I do think about how I would like to be remembered
LOUISE O'NEILL: Amanda Knox committed the 'sin' of openly enjoying her sexuality
LOUISE O'NEILL: When someone describes me as ladylike, I am always deeply offended

Yes there needs to be a conversation about the sexual culture in Ireland (refrain from rape culture label for now).

No, O'Neill should not be the moderator for the discussion. Absolutely not.

I never thought I'd say this but on reading previous stuff from her - she's worse than I thought.

Though I'll give her credit for commenting that "porn on the internet can be got by the flick of the wrist".

Thought that was AFTER it was watched ???

Mortpourvelo · 07-11-2016 11:47AM

Oh and don't Google that Zarna one - you'll need disinfectant for your brain after. Bat s**t nuts she is.

Water John · 07-11-2016 11:47AM

Do remember the case where locals, including the priest turned up in court to support the alleged perpetrator.
The court decided they were wrong.

It is difficult for some being believed, it seems.
This should not mean assumption of guilt.

The Specialist · 07-11-2016 11:49AM

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

Oh and don't Google that Zarna one - you'll need disinfectant for your brain after. Bat s**t nuts she is.

I've seen enough of her in 40 seconds of that video to know all I need to know about her - an absolute pig.

Walter H Price · 07-11-2016 11:53AM

The Specialist wrote: »

I've seen enough of her in 40 seconds of that video to know all I need to know about her - an absolute pig.

Women like this are as disgusting in my view as the men who think its their right or whatever to force themselves on whatever woman they choose ... equally vile ignorant opnions

ZeroThreat · 07-11-2016 12:05PM

Water John wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/rape-consent-cork-jazz-column-jen-hough-3063524-Nov2016/
This is worth a read.
I think Louise may be extreme but abusing her does nothing for anyone's argument.
I would say to all, listen to how people feel.

The sad thing is that O'Neill is one of that well connected upper middle class group of twats in this country who tend to hijack various issues & movements for their own benefit.

Don't be surprised if she's a senator a few years down the line or heading some bogus charity and making a few grand a year off the proceeds. :rolleyes:

I don't consider myself a 'class warrior' and am not an aaa-pbp looney left type, but there's something about the Irish middle class that grates with me. They're false, pretentious and irritating, full of faux concerns & virtue signalling nonsense compared to their counterparts in most other nations. Their propensity for heavy involvement in the refugee industry is ridiculous while at the same time constantly looking down their noses at those with less exclusive postal codes in their own country.

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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