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Dublin Marathon 2016 - Mentored Novices Thread

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 168 ✭✭aceygray


    aceygray wrote: »

    What would you do differently with your training? Honestly, nothing. The plan suited me very well, and until I got injured I hadn't missed a single training run. I think the injuries I got were just bad luck. I suppose I might consider a program with 4 rather than 5 runs per week, just for time reasons. The marathon training kind of took over my life this summer, and other things got put on the back burner.

    Actually, I've thought of something else. I would use a Garmin. Up to now I've used an app on my phone, which I carry in my belt and don't check during my run. It means I can check my pace & distance when I'm finished, but during my runs I'm going by feel. At the beginning I was doing my long runs too fast (like a lot of people). I think a garmin would really help with pacing during training, and during races.

    I've always really wanted one, but never invested until now. I ordered one today as a little reward for myself :D

    I'm feeling a bit looser and less sore today. I'm taking it easy, eating a lot, and drinking lots of water. I'm heading to my physio in a while for a good rub down. Hope everyone else is recovering well too. All the race reports are great, still reading through them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 301 ✭✭FITZA


    aceygray...my very best wishes to you as you embark on another journey :D Have a wonderful day on Thursday as you take on a Mr. Aceygray :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Fbjm


    Here's my answers to Nop's questions.

    What went well with your training plan?

    The long runs were such a godsend. Anytime I completed the distance I felt like I could do anything, like I could achieve anything. The few times I ran a few kms short of the planned distance it just pushed me all the more to be the best me I can be and run further, faster, and stronger.

    What would you do differently with your training?

    I ended up cutting out a lot, practically all towards the end, of the midweek runs. By a pure huge stroke of luck, after over two months of a job search, I happened to find a well paying job that has us walking 80kms a week at a brisk pace. I found that getting up to run before work, then going into work to do this, was just sapping all of the enjoyment out of my favourite hobby. If I were to do this again, and by god I will, I would likely concentrate on getting more midweek runs in as 80kms walking a week can't replace half the distance running. Also I don't think I did enough sprint training; I feel like I definitely would have gotten under the five hour mark had I concentrated more on that.

    What went well about the race?

    I hit no wall, I kept a very consistent pace throughout, I ran the fastest half marathon of my life up to the halfway point then the second fastest half marathon of my life from the halfway point to the finish, I ran the entire thing without walking a single step.

    What would you do differently if you could start the race again?

    Honestly nothing. Nothing at all. Maybe tell myself not to be as nervous in the build up, but I know I would be anyway :pac:

    So there's my answers to the questions. Sorry I never got to meet any of ye in person lads, I'm not done though, I'm not done, I'm still here and I'll be running many more marathons after this. Ye all know my username to see by now and maybe someday eventually I'll work up the courage to step outside of my comfort zone and actually meet yiz in person. I hope that by next year's DCM I'll know a few of ye by name and face :) Thanks very much to everyone for all the help throughout the year.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭nop98


    aceygray wrote: »
    This guy Gary O'Hanlon had a fall and wrecked his ankle at 4 miles:
    https://www.facebook.com/garyohanlon12/posts/1314922505198598

    He still finished, and in 12th place overall :eek:

    I saw him thundering by on Clonskeagh Road and he looked in serious pain :eek: I thought that was just due to the effort, but I didn't realize he had damaged his ankle that badly ~1 hour beforehand!

    I have seen him in full flow before (during the Clontarf Half Marathon, which is out-and-back so when you're halfway to the turnaround point, he comes flying by on his way back) - but compared to Sunday, he looked like he was on a morning stroll that day.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭tony1980


    FITZA wrote: »
    Hi tony1980, I couldn't be more delighted for you to get your sub 4, absolutely brilliant. I only realised after I saw the time splits that you were close to me for the first 10k, I'm sorry I'm not one who is able to chat and run but you looked really strong when you passed me and I was still feeling good then. Huge respect for that last 10k...it really is a 20 mile warm up for a 10k race. Congratulations Tony :)

    Thanks Fitza, that's no problem at all, it felt good to see a familiar face close by, you looked really strong and comfortable when I passed by. I am delighted about the sub 4 but that is just a bonus for me, the main thing was making the starting line and finish line, these gave me the greatest pleasure, just to be able to say I ran one is amazing now :-)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭woody1


    What went well with your training plan?
    i followed it ! about 95 percent of it, missed about 2 runs, amended maybe 3, 4 days a week just suited grand.


    What would you do differently with your training?

    run with groups more ? 72 runs , mostly on your own can get mentally tough,
    somewhere in the middle i raced the warriors run, i started a small 8k race with the intention to jog it and blasted the last 5k and i absolutely hammered the last 10k of the 3/4 marathon, just to prove to myself that i could, wouldnt do that again, starting the marathon with a sore calf was down to that stupidity

    What went well about the race?
    most decisions i made worked out, got insoles for runners and wore compression socks to try to mitigate the sore calf, pacing was about right, tiny bit too slow, to get to 40k easy without feeling any real pain was almost perfect


    What would you do differently if you could start the race again?
    start in front of whatever pace group was relevant to me, allow for congestion, allow for running overdistance ! not be so cagey in the third quarter, couldve let go a bit more..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 172 ✭✭Peadar_85


    Huge congrats to all finishers who can now call themselves Marathon Runners. Really enjoying reading all the reports. Enjoy the glow of the immediate aftermath and just enjoy November. Don't put too much pressure on to make any serious runs is the good advice we got on here last year; the PBs will come crumbling in your local park runs in the coming months.

    Major kudos to the Nop and the guys who ran the 2016 thread; I didn't follow it as much as last year but the early query I had was answered in no time and cured a nagging doubt I had in relation to pacing involved in a new plan I was considering following.

    Having successfully followed the 2015 novices plan for my debut I'd another good day myself on Sunday and thoroughly enjoyed all the support along the way. Definitely doesn't get any easier second time round but hard to shake the bug once it bites you! I'll leave you with the words of a fellow marathon runner mate after inquiring how I did: "Great achievement to finish...people that don't run a marathon will never know how hard it is and how many mixed emotions goes through the head !!"

    Til 2017 guys.....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Just tried that but it's telling me that all of the .FIT files that are there aren't activities. Thanks anyway for your help.

    Try upload them to Strava, it's worth a shot. Or PM one of them to me and I'll open it up and see what's in them if you don't know how to do this yourself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 117 ✭✭budhistmonk


    Just tried that but it's telling me that all of the .FIT files that are there aren't activities. Thanks anyway for your help.
    Is there a fit file that matches the date of the marathon or when you may have uploaded the fit file. It's possible the fit file is corrupt and there are tools to fix it which I've had to use previously. (I used this site http://garmin.kiesewetter.nl/). If there is a file that matches try to repair it and then upload manually via the upload option on the Garmin Connect site.

    This may be of no use to you but thought I'd share just in case as I know I'd be so annoyed if it happened.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    What went well with your training plan?

    Pretty much everything, until the last two weeks. I was cruising along and, even though it wasn't always easy, I did every run in the plan and hit my target times in every race. Took a turn in the last fortnight when an achilles injury followed by illness meant my taper consisted of 2 weeks of rest.

    What would you do differently with your training?

    Not get sick or injured, I guess? But since those are not in my control, not much else. I might pay a bit more attention to diet and if I was when I am running another one I might do even more miles.

    What went well about the race?

    Not a lot. I suppose I enjoyed the first 11 or 12 miles and did everything right if it had been a different day. Also, I finished, so that went well.

    What would you do differently if you could start the race again?

    I'd cop on an drop back a wave. I'd love to go back to Sunday and start over with the 4:10 pacers and try to finish somewhere between them and the 4:20s. I think that would have been achievable on the day and would have meant a much better experience.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭Extrasupervery


    Here lads, this thing is as long and tedious as the DCM itself so be prepared for a thesis or skip on to the next report. I started it Sunday but only got round to finishing now (the report, not the race). I'm afraid to see what it looks like when I hit submit...but I might as well get it all down, for the sake of learning from it.

    A massive, massive well done is in order for everyone who completed that behemoth of a race yesterday. I have a new and deep respect for every mile, and everyone who runs all 26.2 of them :D

    Pre-race
    I was so nervous I couldn't eat very well. Went to the expo on Saturday, got there by lunch time so it wasn't too busy but as soon as I walked in my stomach was in knots. I've been to it countless times before but never as a participant, I suddenly realised that this thing was actually happening and was a bit overwhelmed by it. Met TFGR at number collection, always nice to see a happy smiling face, also thank you for volunteering.

    Had some noodles at the 'carb bar' at the expo just cause I knew I should, met Derval O'Rourke, bought her book and mumbled a string of profanities at the poor woman. The morning of I couldn't eat much either, had porridge and bagels and bananas at the ready but I felt like I might be sick so I didn't eat any of them. The organisation at the start is phenomenal, really helps ease the nerves and anxiety when everything runs like clockwork. My OH and I met The Black Oil at the start, as I danced around like a lunatic in the queue for the loo, the nerves were mighty. Glad to hear you got on well!

    False start
    Before the start I parted ways with my OH, brother and dad as they're all much faster than me and had targeted various pacer groups. I'm glad I started by myself though, it was good to have a minute to calm the nerves/thoughts. In saying that I rounded the corner where us blue-bibs were corralled and caught sight of the start line and freaked out a bit. I was carried along in the crowds but about 100m out I did a refusal. I literally did a 'nope, f**k this sh1t' and swivelled.

    I weaved backwards through the rest of the wave who were careering over the start line with whoops and hollers until I was back at a barrier. There I put on a bit of Radiohead, got my sh1t together and went for it again. The fact that it took me two goes to get through the start line is a testament to how nervous I actually was. Did I mention that I had been going to this thing since I was a child? To me it was legendary, and a bit taboo. My dad said today that he was stunned that out of all the women in the family I was the first one to do it, as I am the 'least athletic' (read: dumpy, unmotivated asthmatic). Anyhow, Radiohead served me well, I actually started and was able to go into my own zone a bit.

    Pacing
    I remember trying so, SO hard to slow my pace, my garmin kept flashing between 'on pace' and 'ahead of pace' so I forced myself to slow down until I felt like I was crawling along. Saw my lovely mammy at Stoneybatter which was a great lift, and the in-laws in the park who were the loudest of all the supporters, heard some people comment 'that's why they call it the friendliest marathon' after we passed them which made me feel proud and motivated. I had gotten over my nerves at this stage and was starving, so I downed two gels in quick succession, I also drank at every water stop. I had heard tales of the legendary support at Castleknock but had never seen it before...dear god those people deserve an award. I was swept along but again remembered to correct my pace.

    Niggles be damned
    On the way back into the park my old niggles showed up, namely a tightness in my right achilles and a burning right knee. I was very conservative with these in training, pretty much ending my runs as soon as they showed up. That was not happening today though, I was determined to run through them, and the adrenaline of the day really helped. I also had a small pharmacy taped to the inside of my sports bra, with various different forms of analgesia carefully timed to take as I needed them. My nurse training was useful here. How to complete a marathon while minimising pain and avoiding an acute kidney injury? Let's find out.

    Found the in laws again at Kilmainham and was given a few sweets and lots of encouragement. My garmin started to flash low battery at about 9 miles which was very disappointing as I had ensured that it was fully charged, luckily I had planned to meet my mother again at Rialto and I knew she had her forerunner 10 on, as I crested the hill over Rialto bridge I spotted her, she started cheering and shouting 'well done babe, you're looking great!' as I yelled GIVE ME YOUR WATCH I NEED YOUR WATCH. She had it off and had gotten the location by the time I got to her, the legend.

    What even is Kimmage
    After this I hadn't planned on having any other spectators out on the course. With four of us running at different times it was hard for family and friends to catch us all, and I figured nop and co. would be long gone from Milltown by the time I trundled through. I rocked up as far as the halfway point happily enough, got a third gel into me, enjoyed the lucozade and kept the niggles in check. After this I started to flag a bit...no familiar faces to look forward to and the dreaded CrumlinKimmageTerenurey bit of Dublin I didn't know was coming up. My solution to this was to eat my feelings. The crowds were offering all sorts of sh1te and I was starved. The good people of Kimmage fed me bananas, high 5 gels, roses, haribo and jelly beans. Luckily I had eaten most of those things on training runs and knew they wouldn't make me sick, but wtf was I doing, it was like trick or treating...but they were all so supportive and happy to help. It was a public service, amirite?

    At this stage my watch (which was still running despite flashing 'low battery' for miles) started to tell me I was 'behind pace' more often than 'on pace' but I largely ignored it, my time goal was secondary to finishing, which I had realised that I was going to. I never took it for granted that I was going make it half way, never mind finish, so realising that I was getting there made the time on my wrist seem unimportant. The next few miles are blurry, I had to pee again at 19 miles which is a good sign I know but such an inconvenience when you're in a good rhythm. I also passed the Eiffel Tower at roughly this point too, poor sod. I had the 10:10:10 rule in my head the whole way so getting to 20 miles was a huge lift, however there was nobody on the course at that point which was odd. I completely missed the boards envoy at 21 miles, somehow. I read something positive a few pages back about looking fresh or some such nonsense* but I was just focused on finishing.

    Barely moving
    All I remember from the next few miles is a load of ads for lucozade. The Stillorgan road UCD flyover were painful. I made myself keep running though. I'm not opposed to tactful walking, I walked a chunk of the DCHM this year. Yesterday I was in such a ploddy little rhythm that I knew if I started walking I would not run again, so I made myself run the whole thing, even when I swear I was barely moving. On Nutley Lane and Merrion Road I found new resolve and told myself to pick up the pace for a strong finish. I powered along, legs lifting high, I must've looked like Gebrselassie on speed. Oh wait though, my watch was flashing 'behind pace' and small children spectators walking back to the finish were passing me. Elderly men breezed by, people I hadn't seen since miles before hand disappearing off into the distance. I was putting in so much effort and going nowhere.

    My legs were like lead, and try as I might it was like moving through quicksand. I was now thoroughly preoccupied with watching the distance clock up on the second garmin. I was fixated. Just get me there. Then my wonderful mammy appeared on the sidelines again, cheering me on, running along with me and pointing out that I was the only one in my cohort still running, all the people around had started walking. She meant this to be inspiring, however it pointed out to me that although I was still plodding around in a somewhat running stance, walkers were over-taking me. I doubt those walkers around me were much impressed either, as many were in great pain. Either way it really helped to see a friendly face, and she gave me the push I needed. I also saw TFGR around here somewhere, thank you for being such a class supporter. I very enthusiastically waved and high fived her but couldn't get string any words together.

    Finish in sight
    By Northumberland road the crowds really picked up again. I spotted a few friends who roared encouragement, some family had made it back from out the course and cheered me on again, I spotted the finish line in the distance and got really...angry. I put my head down and ploughed on like a woman possessed. I thought "I've been running this thing for half the day, I've been training for it for a whole year, it's an arbitrary distance, everything hurts, I want a pint, I'm so tired, I want it to be over."

    I just watched the asics video. The whole way through I have the same ploddy gait, I don't seem to move my arms at all, I just trundle on...I look a bit like a sh1t race-walker, actually. But the last videos, the ones that they call '25 miles' and 'just before finish' I'm sprinting. Still pigeon footed and awkward but sprinting with this big angry face on me. I suppose it was an attempt at determination but it came out as anger. I crossed the finish line with a mix of anger and elation and pride and the rest and didn't know what to do with myself. Poor Jim Aughney pulled me aside and asked if I was alright cause I was such a mess. God knows what I babbled at him but he gave me a hug and sent me on my way. I got my medal, my t shirt and a few more hugs and my brother found me after the goodie bag area. He picked me up bodily and brought me to the nearest pub (O'Reillys) where there was many pints and family and post-mortems.

    Some more text in bold
    My dad (who has run many DCMs since the 80's) has officially retired after Sunday. My mam (who has run many half marathons in recent years) is going to sign up for next year. Everyone in our party made it home safe and in one-piece, none of us ran 'according to plan' whatever that means but we were all happy out afterwards. In the last few weeks I had said I was never going to sign up for another marathon, I enjoyed 10 milers and 10ks and mud runs and that, and I would stick to them but...I learned a lot yesterday, and I have unfinished business. I (will?) may be back.

    I am so very grateful to Nop and co. for providing such an encouraging and supportive environment in this thread, and for catering to all sorts of runners with that encouragement. I may not have been the best student (went off way too fast in DCHM and saw midweek runs as 'more of a suggestion') but you were great teachers, and Nop's periodic check ins and words of wisdom really kind of punctuated the weeks and gave them lots of structure. That structure is the only reason why I stuck with the training at all, really, as left to my own devices I would have plodded my way off into the Phoenix Park one day and never made it back. I learned so much from everyone who posted here, and provided advice and asked questions which I didn't even think to ask. You're all good lads.

    What with family coming from all over I couldn't duck away to get to McGrattans but I've seen a lot of talk of the Jingle Bell 5k, would those doing it fancy billing it as a novice (now graduate :D) reunion? 5k followed by drinks in the Hole in the Wall or Cumiskeys or somewhere close? I owe a few folk a pint. I'm also really enjoying reading everyone else's race reports, thank you for posting them as they're so good to learn from.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭This Fat Girl Runs


    Flippin' heck, guys your races and reports are epic. Trying to hold back tears as I'm sneaking a read of these at work.

    You're heroes. The lot of you. I can't say much more than others have already said; you battled mental demons and physical ones, you battered your bodies and your legs until they screamed at you to stop but you didn't. You kept on and ran your race and became tried and tested marathoners.

    Some seriously impressive running went on this weekend. I'm in awe of you all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭Extrasupervery


    Something I didn't clarify in my report, I really, really enjoyed the day. It was tough and I learned a lot but it was fantastic, and I wouldn't change a thing. I always knew that I was not a natural athlete but those videos really pointed out that I really need to improve my form to improve my performance, but I am glad to have been able to learn that. Stubbornness determination can get you a long way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,324 ✭✭✭chrislad


    There is one thing I would have loved to have done before all of this training for the Marathon started and that is a Strength and Conditioning program for my core and lower body. My advice to any future potential Novices who have potentially already started running would be to look into something like this now and possibly something like Pilates well before any Marathon training starts so your body is fully prepared for the tough task ahead. This is something I am going to be looking into very soon myself and hopefully it will make me much more stronger for the next one!

    Great report, Tony. This is something that I am taking away as well. Last year was a fairly bad marathon, and I was much happier with this year, but my calves let me down on mile 20, so I really think I need to do something with this before I got again. I could have been sub 4:20 by a few mins if they hadn't cramped, and I think now it's something that I really need to focus on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Pomplamousse


    Try upload them to Strava, it's worth a shot. Or PM one of them to me and I'll open it up and see what's in them if you don't know how to do this yourself.

    I tried this too but it won't work. The only .fit files that are there it says aren't activities. But thanks for trying to help!

    Sorry to hear that your marathon day didn't go to plan btw, I know how much you wanted sub-4. But you should be super proud of getting through those tough conditions that were thrown at you (those cramps sound like they were bloody torturous)! Your day will come:)
    Is there a fit file that matches the date of the marathon or when you may have uploaded the fit file. It's possible the fit file is corrupt and there are tools to fix it which I've had to use previously. (I used this site http://garmin.kiesewetter.nl/). If there is a file that matches try to repair it and then upload manually via the upload option on the Garmin Connect site.

    This may be of no use to you but thought I'd share just in case as I know I'd be so annoyed if it happened.

    Thanks budhistmonk. Nothing has worked for me unfortunately, so I've accepted that it's gone. Oh well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭jameshayes


    Flippin' heck, guys your races and reports are epic. Trying to hold back tears as I'm sneaking a read of these at work.

    You're heroes. The lot of you. I can't say much more than others have already said; you battled mental demons and physical ones, you battered your bodies and your legs until they screamed at you to stop but you didn't. You kept on and ran your race and became tried and tested marathoners.

    Some seriously impressive running went on this weekend. I'm in awe of you all.

    What you did was amazing too - I seen you twice on course and both times you put a big smile on my face and kept me fuelled for another few miles! Those polka dot balloons were a very welcome sight!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,358 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    What went well with your training plan?

    I was able to follow it almost to the letter, I think I missed one midweek run due to bringing a LSR forward a day, and though I technically missed two LSR's, they were two 10/11k runs that I replaced with a 16k Tough Mudder and a 46k cycle, so I doubt I lost much in that deal.

    I was lucky in a way, life circumstances meant that I could actually devote four months of my time to fully concentrate on training with no real distractions or anybody fighting for my time. I had a proper routine going that not only let me do the training, but also gave me space to just prepare for that training, to rest before and after and to know in advance what was going to happen.

    But even then it was a long slog for four months, so I have to say fair play to anybody who did the same training as me, but did it while also juggling family, shiftwork, injury, holidays and a host of other distractions. I honestly don't know how some of you found the time!

    What would you do differently with your training?

    I ended up using the boards modified HH1 plan and I think it needs another 20 mile run in there. The HH1 is supposed to have a 29k in week 13 but the modified plan drops that for the race series half marathon and I think it was a big loss. I learnt a lot from the DCHM and its worth doing as well, but if I was doing that plan again I would definitely skip it in favour of a 20 miler. The real struggles all start after the 20 miles, its just not enough to have gone that distance only once before.

    What went well about the race?

    On reflection I am quite happy with my pace and my discipline, looking at the graph on strava it looks pretty consistent and my average pace for the race ended up bang on what it was supposed to be (6.24 min/km). Yes I missed my goal time, but I only missed it by 2 minutes which isn't much when set against a 4 1/2 hour race, or so I tell myself :pac:. Technically I was a little fast in the first half, but it wasn't that fast either, and at the end when I was struggling and had slowed down I was still at LSR pace, so I'm pretty happy with that.

    One thing I'm happy with is that I didn't take any walking breaks, I ran the whole thing! I did stop 5/6 times to spend 15/20 seconds stretching, but on the whole it was a constant run at a pace I had trained for. There are better and faster runners than me that have had to walk at times, and even with walking still finished ahead of me, but its just a personal thing that I wanted to run the entire 26.2 so I can walk away now content that I did so.

    What would you do differently if you could start the race again?

    My pre-race would be a lot different, I would get in there earlier, get sorted quicker and do some damn stretches. I'll never know how much the lack of stretching hurt me further down the line but it certainly couldn't have helped.

    While I think my water/fueling strategy went well and I never really cramped up at any stage I would still make a few changes. I sipped water along the course, grabbed one Lucozade from Chapelizod and took Cliff bloks at regular intervals, but now I'm thinking that I should have had some sort of dioralyte drink in there somewhere. Maybe I would have felt better at Clonskeagh had I something to replace the lost salts instead of just water and the carb bloks. The frustrating thing is my friend at 28km offered me a bottle with dioralyte in it and I refused because I had never taken it on a LSR and didn't want to risk something new. :mad: I'd also maybe bring some sort of protein bar to take at least once, instead of just the Cliff Bloks, they weren't enough on their own I suspect.

    I'm sure there are plenty of other things I might have done differently but those are some of my thoughts anyway, and just writing them done has reinforced one thing to me, that on the whole I am pretty content with how everything went. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31 JPlinders


    Help Needed!

    Right Guys, at my wits end here so looking for advice. This is a call out for recommendations for a marathon nutrition (& performance) specialist. Please reply if you can refer.

    Without putting too fine a point on it - devastated after Sunday. Finish time: 4.25

    My history:
    6th DCM
    PB was 4.06 (DCM 2015)
    Logged 520 miles since May for DCM'16. Varied workouts: Speed/Hill/Tempo/LSR type runs.
    LSR's every second week at minimum 10 min mile pace. Toppped out at 19m LSR 3 weeks out from DCM (that week was my max mileage week of 50 miles).

    Training PBs:
    5km: 20.20
    10km: 43
    10m: 1.14
    Half: PB two years ago was 1.39 but didn't run it this year due to holidays.

    The Prep: Carb loaded Thurs - Sat on porridge and rice ONLY. Hydrated well and took a dioralyte on Fri and Sat.
    The Aim: Sub-4
    The Strategy: Run a negative/even split.

    Set off ahead of Martha and Mr Stew. They caught me in Castleknock while I stopped for a "bio" break. Chatted with Marthastew all through Chapelizod & Kilmainham and was there for when her balloon burst.
    Planned to kick on from the Kestrel but lost the 4hr pacers by KCR. My "kick on" plan was more like "you're barely able to keep this pace". By Terenure I walked for the first time and from there is was start stop all the way to the finish.

    Herein probably lies my problem. I believe I underfuelled. We all know how bad 2014 was weather-wise and I learned from that and since then I've run with a camelbak. 3 gels is my limit so my training LSRs were a cocktail of gels (isogels without caffeine) + dioralyte + water in the camelbak. I trained that way therefore I race that way. When I took it off after the finish I'd only drunk half of it (it holds about 1.5L) so guessing I didn't fuel enough.

    Last 3 marathons I've puked either during or after. This year I didn't but believe me it could have gone either way. I've read P&D cover to cover and absorbed the knowledge. I did the work but didnt get the reward. I haven't tweaked my my gel brands to be honest in the hope that each year I will adjust but clearly now. Been in touch with one of the 3.40 pacers and he feels my target is soft given my PBs. I agree but shorter distances are fine, I attack them. Marathon is more strategic due to the glycogen depletion and my body just won't adjust at the latter stages.

    I am NOT waiting until DCM 2017 to go again. I need to break 4 before then.

    Any assistance appreciated or PMs on people I can consult with.

    Thanks for reading.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 301 ✭✭FITZA


    I also had a small pharmacy taped to the inside of my sports bra, with various different forms of analgesia carefully timed to take as I needed them. My nurse training was useful here. How to complete a marathon while minimising pain and avoiding an acute kidney injury? Let's find out.

    The crowds were offering all sorts of sh1te and I was starved. The good people of Kimmage fed me bananas, high 5 gels, roses, haribo and jelly beans. Luckily I had eaten most of those things on training runs and knew they wouldn't make me sick, but wtf was I doing, it was like trick or treating...but they were all so supportive and happy to help. It was a public service, amirite?

    Then my wonderful mammy appeared on the sidelines again, cheering me on, running along with me and pointing out that I was the only one in my cohort still running, all the people around had started walking. She meant this to be inspiring, however it pointed out to me that although I was still plodding around in a somewhat running stance, walkers were over-taking me.

    :D:D:D:D I am here in knots laughing at your report....brilliant

    [/QUOTE] I've seen a lot of talk of the Jingle Bell 5k, would those doing it fancy billing it as a novice (now graduate :D) reunion? 5k followed by drinks in the Hole in the Wall or Cumiskeys or somewhere close? I owe a few folk a pint. I'm also really enjoying reading everyone else's race reports, thank you for posting them as they're so good to learn from.[/QUOTE]

    I would be on for that :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 446 ✭✭tipping


    What went well with your training plan?
    As much as was controllable everything went to plan. Missed the guts of 2 weeks due to illness and moving house but you can only control the controllables. Didn't by any means complete every session as per the plan (P&D 55) but adjusted it as I felt with the main emphasis on easy miles. I think the confidence to run to how you feel and adjust plans etc is pretty important rather than religiously sticking to a particular plan. Kept the legs and body in good shape at all cost rather than squeezing in extra miles or an extra session. Kept on top of any niggle (was best friends with the sliotar at my desk)

    What would you do differently with your training?
    For my first time out very little. Only thing I think I got wrong on the day (and I'm being a bit harsh on myself) was fuelling. I was a bit haphazard in my race simulation on LSRs, took gels as I felt, max of 3 on LSRs etc, whereas on the day I went with gel every 5 miles and even tried the lucozade sport at a station which didn't go down well. So I'd be a bit more specific with that element of training.
    Also I think I'd probably try to race without gels at all and do a bit more research and testing with the alternatives (jelly beans or whatever)

    What went well about the race?
    The first 22.5 miles, the actual result and the mental preparation for when the going got tough definitely stood to me.

    What would you do differently if you could start the race again?
    Went a little quick between 10k and 1/2 way with the downhill through the park
    Would have fuelled differently and had my electrolytes with me instead of just water (They just weren't in my race day kit although I'd left them out on the table). Possibly had the OH or a clubmate at a designated spot with said electrolyte solution or alternative food.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Pomplamousse


    Dublin City Marathon 2016

    Training:
    I followed the Boards plan and it mostly went to plan. Was unlucky to get sick a few times over the 18 weeks (sore throats, headcolds & coughs) which caused me to miss a few weekday runs, but managed to get through all of the all-important LSRs. No injuries or major niggles other than some tight muscles.

    The final weeks and taper madness:
    Went a bit overboard on the "anti-germs" brigade. Carried hand sanitizer around with me everywhere, avoided as much as possible anyone who sounded like they'd a hint of a sniffle, kept my distance from my nieces and nephews (or "the little disease carriers" as I so fondly refer to them). Yet right on cue, on the Monday before the marathon, that all too familiar "ugh I'm getting sick" feeling reared its ugly head. Came down with a dose of manflu that gradually worsened so I ended up taking the Thursday and Friday off work. Was feeling a good bit better by Friday evening but was still coughing quite a lot. Barely slept Friday night or Saturday night as the cough was much worse when I'd lie down so it was keeping me awake.

    Marathon day:
    Despite the terrible sleep I felt pretty ok when I got up on Sunday morning. Had porridge and got a taxi into town around 7.30am. Walked for what felt like ages to get to the baggage drop. Still had loads of time so queued for portaloos twice. Was pretty funny seeing one of the 4hr pacers go into one of the portaloos. Her balloon was already attached and obviously was too big to go in with her so it was sticking out the door, with everyone around laughing at the sight.
    Made my way to wave 2. I was wearing an old scarf that I planned on discarding. This scarf could have resulted in my house being burned down last year from being put on a bandy radiator, so it has a few yellow burn marks on it. Noticed I was gettting a few odd looks, when I suddenly realised that it probably looked like I had vomited on the scarf. Haha, oh well it was keeping me warm and thankfully my pre-race nerves weren't that bad:D
    Had no idea where the start line was so started walking with the crowds after we had heard the first wave set off. All of a sudden I was almost at the start-line and I could see the 3hr50 pacers. I tried moving back to find the 4hr pacers but they were a bit too far back so I crossed the startline a bit ahead of them. My dream time was sub-4 but I wasn't sure if it was possible, so I was happy to let the 4hr pacers go ahead of me and remain within sight until hopefully I could draw them in towards the end if all going well. Lol!!

    Miles 1-10
    Within the first mile I felt a stitch come on. I've gotten plenty of running stitches in the past and find that really concentrating on my breathing helps get rid of them, but nothing seemed to work. It wasn't very bad and didn't cause me to slow down, but it was uncomfortable and in hindsight, might've been an early indication for me to slow down. But I was feeling fine otherwise so I didn't. Unfortunately, the stitch came and went regularly for the entire race!
    For miles 1-10 I maintained PMP and felt mostly fine, apart from the stitch. Thankfully my cough didn't seem to be affecting me. Although another thing I noticed was how thirsty I was. I was dying for every water station and this has never happened to me in a race before; usually I take a few sips of water at the stations just because I feel I probably should. I don't really like gels so jellytots were my fuel of choice. Ate half a bag (equivalent of 1 gel) around Castleknock and that went down fine.

    Miles 11-20
    Took more jellytots at mile 12. Crossed the half way point in just over 2 hours so I was pretty happy with that and feeling good. Somewhere after mile 15 it all went downhill. All of a sudden, I was completely and utterly zonked. I tried maintaining PMP but my legs were having none of it. I was completely zapped. I guess I "hit the wall" but I had no idea how that could be happening when I was fueling regularly. I'd done one of my 20 mile runs with no fuel at all and never felt like this. My pace was the issue I guess :rolleyes: I kept going anyway with a reduced pace. But Christ I was so tired and so thirsty. Yet the water wasn't quenching it and everytime I did try and drink, it would make my stitch worse. Take more jellytots I thought. But no, now I was starting to feel nauseous so that wasn't going to work. I completely let go of the 4hr target and cursed myself for even thinking it could be possible. I just needed it to be over. At this point it was all about making it to each of my supporters who I knew were ahead at regular intervals. It had all gone so downhill so quickly.
    Somewhere around mile 16 I heard someone shout my name, looked up and saw my bf practically beside me. It all happened very fast though, as I ran past him I think I mouthed "help me". I'd been jokingly saying the day before that I couldn't believe he hadn't made me a motivational sign for when I was going to be running past him. As I went past I saw he was actually holding some kind of sign but it happened so fast that I didn't get to read it. I felt a mixture of "aaaaw" and "aaargh I'm such an idiot, if I'd gone slower or been paying attention I'd have been able to read it". He told me later that when he shouted my name, all the crowds around him started cheering my name too, but it completely went over my head, I didn't hear any of it!!:mad::(
    Knew I'd another friend waiting for me around mile 18 and he'd have a water bottle. I grabbed it and kept running. Can't remember if I said anything to him, I possibly mumbled expletives. I had very little energy at this stage.
    I think it was just around the corner from here that I stopped running and started walking for the first time. I just didn't care. Psychologically, I'd failed. After that a pattern of run for a while, stop and walk for a while, run again emerged.
    I live just before the 20 mile marker and could see my housemate up ahead. She's one of the most positive people I know so I was determined to put on a happy face for her. She seemed delighted to see me and I jokingly asked if I could just stop now and go into our house. "Nooooo!!" she shouted at me and I kept going.

    Miles 20-26.2
    As I turned the corner onto Clonskeagh road I was looking out for Nop and Firedance's posters. Spotted Nop, think I did a half-wave thing and he told me later in the pub that I looked terrible and just shook my head at him. Hehe oops, sorry Nop!
    I knew my mother and sister would be somewhere further down the road in Clonskeagh so was looking out for them and determined not to be seen walking. Spotted my mother, waved and she gave a hysterical scream once she saw me. My adorable niece was prancing around on the grass beside her with a big sign with my name on it and she looked absolutely delighted to see me. It was just after passing them that I felt a huge surge of emotion and almost burst into tears. I felt like a total fraud, even though my Mother & niece wouldn't have a clue about target times & the like and so didn't have a clue how badly I felt I was doing. Suddenly spotted my sister in the crowd a bit beyond my mum & niece and I think she said something to me but again I don't remember.
    The rest is a bit of a blur, all I could think was get to the finish line, get to the finish line. Felt like it would never end. The crowds may as well have not been there, I didn't appreciate it at all. In the last mile, heard someone scream my name and saw one of my friends so gave her a big wave. Completely missed 2 more friends who were near her. A bit further on and with about 1 mile to go, I saw a friend from work and she was the best possible person I could've seen at this time. She's run a few marathons and we'd be similar fitness wise, so I knew she'd know how I was feeling. At this point I didn't care about my time so I stopped and she gave me a big hug. I told her I felt really sick but she told me to keep going. Started back running then, determined not to stop until it was over. The relief when I saw the finish line. But it took so long to reach it. Oh the relief when I crossed it.

    Finish time: 4:19:22.

    Aftermath:
    I really really wanted to sit down but I thought I'd never get up again if I did, so I made my way to the baggage area. Hadn't realised how much pain I was in. Finally got through the crowds and got my bag. Felt a bit shell-shocked and at one stage thought I might keel over. Did a huge cough and realised how sore my lungs were, I hadn't realised at all whilst running. Finally spotted my bf in the crowds and as soon as he gave me a hug all the pent-up emotions came out and I thought I'd never stop crying. I did, after about 30 seconds. We sat down on a curb for what ended up being about 45 minutes while I recovered. I felt fine after a few minutes but knew standing up again would be agony. Hobbled over to McGrattan's later and managed to find a seat straight away. By the time I'd found the energy to find some boardsies I think most of the novices who had been there earlier had already left. But it was great to talk to nop and others who were still there. And TFGR's flapjacks were absolutely delicious:)

    I always thought it would be sore legs that might let me down in the marathon (I even had some ibuprofen with me in my pocket just in case) but they were sturdier than I gave them credit for. I barely noticed the leg pains until it was all over. Instead it was the sheer lack of anything even resembling energy that failed me. I should have realised earlier that 4hrs was way too ambitious but I didn't. I'm still a little disappointed in myself but as everyone keeps telling me, I finished the marathon and should be very proud of that. I would've crawled to the finish line if I'd had to, purely to get that medal and race t-shirt!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    JPlinders wrote: »
    Help Needed!

    what training plan were you following? If this is your 6th marathon, your mileage honestly looks quite low to me. Do you train through the year?

    why LSRs every second week and not every week? Why a minimum of 10 min/mile pace? That should be your average LSR pace.

    why carb loading? Do you usually eat porridge and rice before long runs? Do you usually eat that much of it? Do you usually need to make a pit stop after an hour of running?

    you don't need to chat to Marthastew, she'll talk enough for everybody :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,099 ✭✭✭Johnny_Fontane


    Im doing my first marathon in Seville in Feb and just started my training plan (pray for me). For motivation, I'm just going to reread some of the race summaries, most notably Maximus Alexander.

    Congrats to everyone, its amazing to see the determination and will power of this community.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭Extrasupervery


    Pomplamousse you did amazingly, if I had been sick and hadn't slept I don't think I would have gotten out at all. Well done.

    Fitza I'm glad you found it funny, that stretch was such a big blur. If I do DCM again I'm going to have to rent-a-crowd for the 14 to 20 mile section to get me through, it's just so grim when you're unfamiliar with it. More and more of my family seem to be going from spectators to participants, who the f is gonna support us?!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭hf4z6sqo7vjngi


    JPlinders wrote: »
    Help Needed!

    Right Guys, at my wits end here so looking for advice. This is a call out for recommendations for a marathon nutrition (& performance) specialist. Please reply if you can refer.

    Without putting too fine a point on it - devastated after Sunday. Finish time: 4.25

    My history:
    6th DCM
    PB was 4.06 (DCM 2015)
    Logged 520 miles since May for DCM'16. Varied workouts: Speed/Hill/Tempo/LSR type runs.
    LSR's every second week at minimum 10 min mile pace. Toppped out at 19m LSR 3 weeks out from DCM (that week was my max mileage week of 50 miles).

    Training PBs:
    5km: 20.20
    10km: 43
    10m: 1.14
    Half: PB two years ago was 1.39 but didn't run it this year due to holidays.

    The Prep: Carb loaded Thurs - Sat on porridge and rice ONLY. Hydrated well and took a dioralyte on Fri and Sat.
    The Aim: Sub-4
    The Strategy: Run a negative/even split.

    Set off ahead of Martha and Mr Stew. They caught me in Castleknock while I stopped for a "bio" break. Chatted with Marthastew all through Chapelizod & Kilmainham and was there for when her balloon burst.
    Planned to kick on from the Kestrel but lost the 4hr pacers by KCR. My "kick on" plan was more like "you're barely able to keep this pace". By Terenure I walked for the first time and from there is was start stop all the way to the finish.

    Herein probably lies my problem. I believe I underfuelled. We all know how bad 2014 was weather-wise and I learned from that and since then I've run with a camelbak. 3 gels is my limit so my training LSRs were a cocktail of gels (isogels without caffeine) + dioralyte + water in the camelbak. I trained that way therefore I race that way. When I took it off after the finish I'd only drunk half of it (it holds about 1.5L) so guessing I didn't fuel enough.

    Last 3 marathons I've puked either during or after. This year I didn't but believe me it could have gone either way. I've read P&D cover to cover and absorbed the knowledge. I did the work but didnt get the reward. I haven't tweaked my my gel brands to be honest in the hope that each year I will adjust but clearly now. Been in touch with one of the 3.40 pacers and he feels my target is soft given my PBs. I agree but shorter distances are fine, I attack them. Marathon is more strategic due to the glycogen depletion and my body just won't adjust at the latter stages.

    I am NOT waiting until DCM 2017 to go again. I need to break 4 before then.

    Any assistance appreciated or PMs on people I can consult with.

    Thanks for reading.

    Not enough long runs and you are running them too slow. Why not have some of your long runs with MP included or some long progression runs? You are not magically going to start running a minute quicker on race day to what you have been training at. You should be able to comfortably knock out 15miles of a 22 miler at MP towards the end of your training, otherwise its not a realistic MP to go at! If you want a sub 4hr you need to train differently to what you have been doing up to now.

    EDIT: Also looking at your shorter distance race results it suggests to me you need to run more, run longer more frequently, endurance is your issue. You should be closer to 3.30 marathon pace than struggling under sub 4hr.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31 JPlinders


    RayCun wrote: »
    what training plan were you following? If this is your 6th marathon, your mileage honestly looks quite low to me. Do you train through the year?

    why LSRs every second week and not every week? Why a minimum of 10 min/mile pace? That should be your average LSR pace.

    why carb loading? Do you usually eat porridge and rice before long runs? Do you usually eat that much of it? Do you usually need to make a pit stop after an hour of running?

    you don't need to chat to Marthastew, she'll talk enough for everybody :D



    I wasn't following a specific plan per se. I scheduled all types or workouts around my week (ran 5-6 times a week). It's my 6th marathon (5th in a row, all DCM). Low mileage? Really? To achieve a sub-4? I thought I was well within that target range. I cross train Jan-Apr and pick up the running in May generally.

    To clarify - LSRs every week but anything above 16m was never back to back to allow for recovery. e.g. 18m followed by 13m followed by 18m and so on.

    Correction 10-10.30 min miles was my average pace on LSRs. I meant I never went faster than this. Actually I attribute this piece of advice to you Ray from another callout on a post from me a couple of years ago (60-90 sec slower than MP). I only use Boards typically for running advice so not many posts to my name if you want to check :)

    Why carb loading? Isn't this the recommendation pre-marathon? Yes porridge is daily anyway and rice before LSRs usually. The pitstop was a pee break, it was nothing of concern and yes that would occur on LSRs also.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Pomplamousse


    Pomplamousse you did amazingly, if I had been sick and hadn't slept I don't think I would have gotten out at all. Well done.

    Thanks Extrasupervery! I don't want to overstate my sickness though. I was feeling much better by Sunday despite lack of sleep and the cough was more an annoyance than anything. The main problem was definitely me being stupidly over ambitious!

    Ps: you did fantastic and your race report is highly entertaining! From talking to a few boardsies in McGrattans on Sunday I'm thinking I will target jingle bells as my next race (assuming I didn't do any serious leg damage on Sunday) so I'd be up for the novice/graduate reunion:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    JPlinders wrote: »
    I wasn't following a specific plan per se. I scheduled all types or workouts around my week (ran 5-6 times a week). It's my 6th marathon (5th in a row, all DCM). Low mileage? Really? To achieve a sub-4? I thought I was well within that target range. I cross train Jan-Apr and pick up the running in May generally.

    To clarify - LSRs every week but anything above 16m was never back to back to allow for recovery. e.g. 18m followed by 13m followed by 18m and so on.

    It does sound like your mileage is low. 520 miles of training since May is an average of about 25 a week?

    If you are essentially starting training again every May it is going to be hard to make progress. The shorter distances will have more overlap with cross training but the marathon needs long runs. And not just one long run a week, a midweek medium long run, and decent miles on the other runs too.

    If you want to break 4 hours in a spring marathon, you'll at least have the advantage of a few months of recent consistent running, rather than starting from nothing. You should still take the next couple of weeks off - no running, some walking, easy cycling or swimming - and then do another 2/3 weeks of only easy running, before you start training for the next marathon.

    When you do start training, follow a plan. There are a couple of plans at the start of this thread, or since you have P&D follow a plan from that.
    JPlinders wrote: »
    Correction 10-10.30 min miles was my average pace on LSRs. I meant I never went faster than this. Actually I attribute this piece of advice to you Ray from another callout on a post from me a couple of years ago (60-90 sec slower than MP). I only use Boards typically for running advice so not many posts to my name if you want to check :)

    that's fine for average pace, I thought you mean you were running faster than that. As jackyback says, you can add some PMP miles into your long runs, not just all at the same pace, but that should be in the plan.
    JPlinders wrote: »
    Why carb loading? Isn't this the recommendation pre-marathon? Yes porridge is daily anyway and rice before LSRs usually. The pitstop was a pee break, it was nothing of concern and yes that would occur on LSRs also.

    sometimes people eat themselves silly before a marathon and end up bloated. I'd advise you not to carb-load before your next marathon, stick with your regular diet, which should be a healthy diet anyway. Your glycogen levels will be fine because you will be training less during the taper, you don't need to eat more to top them up.

    (There is a protocol of carb-depletion and overload before a race, but if you don't know how to do it properly you should stay away from it)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,911 ✭✭✭tailgunner


    What went well with your training plan?
    Training went very well in general. I scrapped the odd session in favour of an easy run here and there, and only missed a couple of recovery runs. I'm hesitant to say that all the long runs went well, but I got through them, and managed an extra 20 mile run to the two that were on the plan. My legs held up well, and I avoided any major niggles, apart from a calf issue going into the taper which fortunately sorted itself out in time.

    I also cleaned up my diet a bit (i.e. drank less beer) and got down to what I'd consider "racing weight" for me. I was just under 72kg when I toed the line in Berlin, which is probably the lightest I've ever been as an adult, let alone as a runner. I wasn't long putting the weight back on after though!

    What would you do differently with your training?
    I think I'd be less obsessive about getting the miles in, and accept that it's okay to miss the odd run. I was away for a weekend in July, and ran 10 out of 11 days in a row beforehand so that I wouldn't have to run that weekend. I was lucky not to get injured. And then I ran that weekend anyway...

    I'd also pick a plan that had some tune-up races. It was a long, long slog between May and September with no racing, and while it didn't hinder my marathon at all, I'm definitely feeling a loss of sharpness now.

    What went well about the race?
    Everything. I was really lucky on the day.

    What would you do differently if you could start the race again?
    In theory, I could have been a little less conservative after halfway, and pushed a bit harder in the latter stages. The last few miles were very tough, don't get me wrong, but I don't think I experienced the same level of suffering that some of my fellow novices did in Dublin.

    Having said that, I made a choice to execute the race the way I did, and I don't think I'd do anything differently if I had my time over.

    Oh, I'd have skipped the water station at 32.5km and saved myself a good bit of bruising.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭scotindublin


    Right time to answer the four questions from our esteemed leader


    [*]What went well with your training plan?
    I ended up following the boards plan; really enjoyed having that structure there to keep me on the straight and narrow. Apart from the first couple of weeks when I was on holiday I didn't really miss many of the scheduled runs and missed none of the LSRS even pulled the first 20 miler forward a few days and got it done on a horrendous Thursday after work as I was away that weekend. The plan was to get me to the start line and through my first marathon so it worked!
    [*]What would you do differently with your training?
    Honestly not very much there was a lot of miles racked up on my own (plan for the future join a club?More about that in a bit) which was tough and maybe ran some of the runs too quick. Regret not having met up with the great folks on here at some point; although I see there is talk of Jingle Bells.
    [*]What went well about the race?
    Well I finished and have lived to tell the tale! Dug deep when things went pear shaped and got to the end without thinking I never want to do this again! The support around the course from spectators;volunteers and other runners really blew me away.
    [*]What would you do differently if you could start the race again?
    Honestly thinking 3:39:59 was possible probably was a bit niave on my part; if I could start the race again I would go with the 3:50 pacers and push on from mile 18 or so if I felt good. I think I need to look at my fueling/fluid in take...think this may have been a contributing factor to cramping up....should have taken the pace right back when I felt the first twinges! I was out my comfort zone though so my mind probably wasn't working right and in reality didn't know what to do for the best!

    Plans for the future....this is where it gets tricky for me it is a straight choice between golf and running as both take up a lot of time and I can't do justice to both! If the running continues I will look at joining a club Donore Harriers and Lucan Harriers are closest to me so if any boardsies have experience of those I would be greatful for info.

    As nop suggested a training log is called for so will probably get one on the go....there are some great names for the logs there already.....I am thinking of calling mine "The (not so) Flying Scotsman".


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