I cant make sense of INDO piece of journalism about drunks judge groake, and bouncers

kupus · 26-10-2016 10:26PM #1

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/well-known-dublin-nightclub-held-responsible-for-heinous-assault-on-student-on-new-years-night-35164101.html

Ok the drunk pushed a bouncer down a flight of stairs yet she ends up getting the verdict and loadsa money in her favour?

I am confused?
Was this before or after the bouncers kicked her while she was on the ground.

Or was it before the poor mouth called the bouncers polish bstards.

I used to do a bit of bouncing years ago.
****ed if id ever do it now.
The amount of gobsh1tes that you have to deal with looks like it has gotten 10 times worse as the years have gone by.

Ted111 · 26-10-2016 10:32PM

Cork girl....

Auric Goldfinger · 26-10-2016 10:45PM

These days, the words Indo and journalism don't belong in the same sentence. It's obvious nobody proof-read that article before it was uploaded. Probably written by a work experience kid on jobbridge anyway.

El Weirdo · 26-10-2016 11:36PM

I can't make sense of the thread title.

Your Face · 27-10-2016 10:41AM

Badly written article alright, incorrect spelling and no spaces between words.
I used to work the door myself and got out of it, not only because of what you deal with on the job but with hotheads like the bouncer in question.

Riddle101 · 27-10-2016 10:57AM

Hard for me to have sympathy for the woman when it was her that became violent and attacked the female bouncer and pushed her down the stairs etc. If you're going to start something with a bouncer like the way she did, then be prepared to face the repercussions.

suicide_circus · 27-10-2016 11:04AM

Not clicking on an Indo article if I can avoid it.

osarusan · 27-10-2016 11:05AM

If the bouncer was out of order the student should be compensated.

If the student had pushed the bouncer down the stairs, and if she has racially abused somebody she should have to face that too.

Terribly written article though, timeline isn't clear at all.

Dr Jakub · 27-10-2016 11:38AM

osarusan wrote: »

If the bouncer was out of order the student should be compensated.

If the student had pushed the bouncer down the stairs, and if she has racially abused somebody she should have to face that too.

Terribly written article though, timeline isn't clear at all.

How can you be racist against someone of the same race as you?

osarusan · 27-10-2016 12:09PM

Dr Jakub wrote: »

How can you be racist against someone of the same race as you?

Because legally the definition encompasses nationality also.

Dr Jakub · 27-10-2016 12:12PM

osarusan wrote: »

Because legally the definition encompasses nationality also.

Bizarre if true. Still if it dilutes the power of the word 'racist' then that is good. 'Omg you're a racist!' 'Yeah, we have the same skin colour...'

HensVassal · 27-10-2016 12:56PM

Riddle101 wrote: »

Hard for me to have sympathy for the woman when it was her that became violent and attacked the female bouncer and pushed her down the stairs etc. If you're going to start something with a bouncer like the way she did, then be prepared to face the repercussions.

There's such a thing as "proportionate response". This American attitude of once someone so much as looks at you the wrong way or pushes you when they are drunk means you have carte-blanche to kick them to death or shoot them because your were, you know, "acting in self defence" and needed to "neutralize the threat" should not be tolerated.

Bouncers don't have a license to batter.

BrokenArrows · 27-10-2016 01:05PM

It makes no sense at all.

The article makes out that the security attacked her with zero provocation after being refused entry.
Yes the article also says she pushed the security down stairs.

How could she push security down stairs if she was the first one being attacked.

Social media has ruined actual reporting.

whoopsadoodles · 27-10-2016 01:12PM

HensVassal wrote: »

...... license to batter.

Sounds like the new James Bond set in Ballymun.

HensVassal · 27-10-2016 01:14PM

whoopsadoodles wrote: »

Sounds like the new James Bond set in Ballymun.

Or a 007 themed chipper

27-10-2016 01:24PM

Dr Jakub wrote: »

How can you be racist against someone of the same race as you?

I do not see why not. I guess it depends what "racist" means to you. The dictionary definition for example is:

"The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."

I guess when I think of racism it is similar to that. For me it is the assumption that a person holds a certain characteristic (good or bad) based solely on their race. In other words - treating the person as a category rather than an individual.

So to take a random example if a woman is walking down a dark street and she sees three big men walking towards her the other way and she gets uneasy - but then noticing their skin color immediately gets _more_ uneasy - then that would effectively qualify as "racism" of a sort. And she could perfectly easily do that even if she herself were of the same race.

But I guess "racism" for many may have come to mean simply an omni-directional hatred for a particular race - or all races but one's own. And under _that_ definition I guess it is much less likely - though far from impossible - to be racist against a member of one's own race.

I have seen people sexist against their own sex too. Women who do not think women should have the right to vote were also mentioned on another thread recently for example. And not all people who think of men - as mysoginistic penis obsessed sex crazy loons who do not care much for who they have sex with other than that they have a pulse for example - are women either.

So yea - it is certainly possible is the answer

Water John · 27-10-2016 01:29PM

Read The Examiner report on this. Seems the Judge did not believe the bouncer's story. This eliminated all that of being thrown down the stairs and racially abused.
He did say the bouncer was entitled to refuse readmission but night club could not employ and let loose a private army.
He decided the assault by the bouncer took place.

foggy_lad · 27-10-2016 01:31PM

Riddle101 wrote: »

Hard for me to have sympathy for the woman when it was her that became violent and attacked the female bouncer and pushed her down the stairs etc. If you're going to start something with a bouncer like the way she did, then be prepared to face the repercussions.

The bouncer claimed she was pushed down the steps by the student but the Judge didn't believe her version of events saying in the original case last month

Judge Groarke said that although it was his view that the bouncers had an obligation to refuse Ms Bennett entry because she was intoxicated, he was satisfied she had been viciously assaulted.

He said he could not believe a word bouncer Dawn Cleary had said in the witness box. She had also refused to co-operate with gardaí who investigated the incident and in his view she should not be licensed to work in security.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/student-awarded-15-000-after-attack-by-krystle-bouncer-1.2817835

this bouncer took the law into her own hands and seriously assaulted the student in what was described as a "Heinous" assault where she was repeatedly kicked and punched by the bouncer.

Water John · 27-10-2016 01:33PM

I think this shows one needs to pick the sources of the storey. Stick with Irish Times or Examiner for good reporting.

elefant · 27-10-2016 01:36PM

Maybe jumping to conclusions, but it seems unlikely that someone named Dawn Cleary would be extremely offended at being on the end of slurs aimed at Polish people?

edit: Oh. It seems she claims her Polish colleague also had some abuse thrown at him. Still, I'm not sure if I was abused for being French that it would bother me too much!

Agent Smith · 27-10-2016 01:39PM

whoopsadoodles wrote: »

Sounds like the new James Bond set in Ballymun.

James Bond will return in...

"For your Fries only...."

osarusan · 27-10-2016 01:44PM

Water John wrote: »

Read The Examiner report on this. Seems the Judge did not believe the bouncer's story. This eliminated all that of being thrown down the stairs and racially abused.

Indo report has the judge accepting that CCTV showed Bennett had pushed Cleary down the stairs.

Grayson · 27-10-2016 01:48PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I do not see why not. I guess it depends what "racist" means to you. The dictionary definition for example is:
"The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."

I guess when I think of racism it is similar to that. For me it is the assumption that a person holds a certain characteristic (good or bad) based solely on their race. In other words - treating the person as a category rather than an individual.

So to take a random example if a woman is walking down a dark street and she sees three big men walking towards her the other way and she gets uneasy - but then noticing their skin color immediately gets _more_ uneasy - then that would effectively qualify as "racism" of a sort. And she could perfectly easily do that even if she herself were of the same race.

But I guess "racism" for many may have come to mean simply an omni-directional hatred for a particular race - or all races but one's own. And under _that_ definition I guess it is much less likely - though far from impossible - to be racist against a member of one's own race.

I have seen people sexist against their own sex too. Women who do not think women should have the right to vote were also mentioned on another thread recently for example. And not all people who think of men - as mysoginistic penis obsessed sex crazy loons who do not care much for who they have sex with other than that they have a pulse for example - are women either.

So yea - it is certainly possible is the answer

Racism is used as a substitute for bigotry. Essentially judging someone based on what they are rather than who they are. Hating someone because they're polish is just as irrational as hating someone because they're black.

There was a philosopher called Hannah Arendt who defined it as an ontological crime. She was talking about Germany and the Jews at the time (she was German and Jewish). The idea is that an individual jew was hated because he was Jewish. It didn't matter what sort of person he was, it didn't matter if he'd changed his religion, he was still hated because of what he was and that is ethnically Jewish. There's literally nothing he could do to change it.
The same would be true of someone who hated polish people. The pole could move here, change nationality, and be the nicest person in the world but at the end of the day the person would still be polish and hated as far as the bigot was concerned.

The thing is that we're used to racism being used to define such bigotry. So we use racism as a term even though the hatred isn't defined by race as such.

harry Bailey esq · 27-10-2016 02:01PM

The bouncer,a lady named Ms Cleary was seen and heard being called a Polish **** by the plaintiff.Bizzare.The poor woman was only carrying out her job.

newbbieb · 27-10-2016 02:01PM

Seems a pretty clear cut case to me,if a drunk student pushes/racially abuses a bouncer/security in a nightclub you have the right to eject them from the nightclub or call the guards,you do not have the right to beat them half to death.

HensVassal · 27-10-2016 02:04PM

I'd have difficulty pushing Dawn anywhere:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=dawn+cleary+bouncer&biw=1409&bih=763&tbm=isch&imgil=46Y_Om-tDGC-UM%253A%253BRiVfqLXGgbws9M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.herald.ie%25252Fnews%25252Fcourts%25252Fstudent-left-scarred-for-life-after-vicious-attack-by-female-bouncer-35107493.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=46Y_Om-tDGC-UM%253A%252CRiVfqLXGgbws9M%252C_&usg=__y_eZMHubKB37547vzJW9Ytz4ZhQ%3D&ved=0ahUKEwjauvTl9frPAhVKBcAKHYOqCK0QyjcIKw&ei=QeoRWJqWO8qKgAaD1aLoCg#imgrc=46Y_Om-tDGC-UM%3A

harry Bailey esq · 27-10-2016 02:21PM

newbbieb wrote: »

,you do not have the right to beat them half to death.

But they didn't seemingly

I chuckled at the post above though I must admit.

I cant make sense of INDO piece of journalism about drunks judge groake, and bouncers

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