UK Votes to leave EU

daithi7 · 14-10-2016 03:20PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

What could possibly be lunatic about wanting to be a free and independent country? You might disagree with it but to call it lunatic is odd.

Nope, I specifically termed wanting to leave the EU as 'silly',
I called the crowd who promote it with all sorts of propaganda as 'the lunatic fringe'.....there is a difference.

E.g. voting in Trump would be silly, many of his ardent supporters are most definitely part of a lunatic fringe.......

dinorebel · 14-10-2016 03:25PM

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

I would actually reckon having both English (not Irish living in England but actually English-English) family, having lived in England and having the ability to juxtapose that with having lived in Ireland, the US, France, Germany and several other places should give me a good perspective on the place.

I have worked in London in very liberal circles where you'd never even contemplate that Brexit was anywhere even remotely on the agenda and I've lived and worked in Hull, for example, where you'd be completely shocked that the EU hadn't already self-combusted and would wonder why the UK was ever in it in the first place.

There are a hell of a lot of different experiences of the UK. It's an unusual country in the sense that you have an actual formalised class system and my experience of it is that middle-class Brits pretend that doesn't exist and to a degree Irish people and other 'blow ins' tend to operate outside it entirely. However, it's a real shocker when you hear someone describing things in terms of class and the sheer immobility of it. I don't think most Irish people actually understand how rigid that is. It's almost like the Irish loyalty to county. If you identify as working class, you're working class. It doesn't matter if you have a PhD from Cambridge, you'll always be working class. If you're middle class, you'll always be middle class and if you're upper class, well.. you'll have a title most likely and operate in a completely different realm where everything's lovely and you don't even realise you're being elitist.

If you look at it historically in the UK voting patterns were entirely class-bound. There's been a little break away recently, but it's more that UKIP has eaten into some of the working class vote and Labour has moved to the champagne socialist end of the market.

You also have enormous regional divides, especially between London and "Up North" and then Northern Ireland and Scotland basically run as parallel entities without any real reference to what's going on in England. Northern Ireland's been like that since the 1920s and Scotland's increasingly no longer operating the same political system as England since the rise of the SNP and the absolute decimation of the Tories up there.

I just think that compared to my experience of Ireland, France, Germany and even the US there's far less of a single national identity and far less political consensus.

I know the US is wildly divided left-right but at the end of the day, they will all consider themselves Americans when push comes to shove. That's not quite true in the UK by a long shot. It is very much about sub-UK national identity and strong regional identities in England (mostly London / Home counties vs The North)

That's why I think in general Brexit is a HUGE shock for the majority of those on the remain side in the UK.

You'd effectively two different audiences, reading totally different media, talking exclusively to themselves and relatively few people swinging in the middle.
Effectively you had the Remain and Leave sides rallying the troops and not quite interacting or even having any kind of meaningful debate.

It's also why I don't think the UK has really gotten to grips with some massive incidents: The London Riots and also the shooting of the Labour Party MP, Jo Cox.

Both of those massive events seem to have sort of been put down to "oh well, that was a bit weird, it was obviously "them" " (whoever "them" is...) So, there's been no real discourse or analysis or fixing it.

I find the same applies to the Northern Irish troubles. They're actually a UK problem, but the UK just disowns them and always has when it comes to public discourse. Everything is always some "other" when it comes to anything that is negative.

The problem now with Brexit is that there isn't a consensus point of view on it in the UK by a long shot and it's inevitably going to turn nasty as factions blame other factions as the economy starts to tank, which is almost a given at this stage.

I would have to agree with Fred on this you made some very valid points but as an Englishman I just don't recognize the class issues you mentioned.

Todd Toddington III · 14-10-2016 04:54PM

dinorebel wrote: »

I would have to agree with Fred on this you made some very valid points but as an Englishman I just don't recognize the class issues you mentioned.

That's coz, like, you're part of the class divide man

Not serious btw, no idea about English society outside of soho and camden being right aul crack. And that newcastle is an epic town to party in whose denizens are without the friendliest I've meet in all of england

brummytom · 14-10-2016 05:19PM

dinorebel wrote: »

I would have to agree with Fred on this you made some very valid points but as an Englishman I just don't recognize the class issues you mentioned.

I'd agree with it, actually. It's obviously not a good thing but there definitely is a noticeable (and rigid) class system that just doesn't seem to exist in Ireland.

maryishere · 14-10-2016 06:48PM

brummytom wrote: »

I'd agree with it, actually. It's obviously not a good thing but there definitely is a noticeable (and rigid) class system that just doesn't seem to exist in Ireland.

Class system does'nt seen to exist in Ireland? You must be joking. Compare a group of kids from Clongowes Wood school in Ireland ( which charges fees of €17,000 a year ) with a group of kids from parts of Coolock or Clondalkin....or some halting site?
Class systems exist in nearly all countries in the world, to some extent. In these island it is possible for someone to better themselves...for example, Margaret thatcher grew up the daughter of a grocer, living in a flat above a shop. She got a scholarship and studied science and law and bettered herself, with a lot of determination, hard work and talent.

FrancieBrady · 14-10-2016 07:01PM

maryishere wrote: »

Class system does'nt seen to exist in Ireland? You must be joking. Compare a group of kids from Clongowes Wood school in Ireland ( which charges fees of €17,000 a year ) with a group of kids from parts of Coolock or Clondalkin....or some halting site?
Class systems exist in nearly all countries in the world, to some extent. In these island it is possible for someone to better themselves...for example, Margaret thatcher grew up the daughter of a grocer, living in a flat above a shop. She got a scholarship and studied science and law and bettered herself, with a lot of determination, hard work and talent.

...and then ****ed up the country for all time. Possibly the root cause of their current predicament

maryishere · 14-10-2016 07:20PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

...and then ****ed up the country for all time.

You must be joking. In her ten years as Prime Minister, she won 3 general elections, increased GDP in real terms, increased total government spending in real terms, increased health, social security etc in real terms. In 2011 Thatcher was named the most competent British prime minister of the past 30 years in an Ipsos MORI poll. Not bad for a grocers daughter. And there was Brummytom going on about class system. Have a look at the class system in Ireland or Russia. Here in Ireland it mostly seems to be middle class teachers who run the government, no wonder we are still borrowing and no wonder they only came back from their summer holidays at the end of September and are taking a week off again soon.;)

14-10-2016 08:05PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you are making sweeping, unsubstantiated claims about an entire nation of people, which includes me, my family, friends etc. Of course I am going to call out when i believe you are wrong.

What hyperbolic maudlin nonsense. Where is anybody except you in your own eternal victimhood doing that? Once again the John Bull/Little Englander/Jingoists are not synonymous with all British (English?) people, no matter how desperately, predictably and consistently you try to equate them.

Your problem is still that you cannot identify with a political Englishness that is free from being defined by being against the Irish/French/Germans/etc. Accordingly, as sure as it will rain in Ireland you'll end up defending all sorts of jingoistic nonsense by your state from the torture centres in Ballykelly to the concentration camps in Kenya. "My country right or wrong" will be your epitaph.

Fratton Fred · 14-10-2016 08:11PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What hyperbolic maudlin nonsense. Where is anybody except you in your own eternal victimhood doing that? Once again the John Bull/Little Englander/Jingoists are not synonymous with all British (English?) people, no matter how desperately, predictably and consistently you try to equate them.

Your problem is still that you cannot identify with a political Englishness that is free from being defined by being against the Irish/French/Germans/etc. Accordingly, as sure as it will rain in Ireland you'll end up defending all sorts of jingoistic nonsense by your state from the torture centres in Ballykelly to the concentration camps in Kenya. "My country right or wrong" will be your epitaph.

Behold. The ultimate little Irelander has spoken.

Do you really believe the bigoted tripe you post, because it's hard to tell if it's serious or surreal.

14-10-2016 08:17PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Behold. The ultimate little Irelander has spoken.

Do you really believe the bigoted tripe you post, because it's hard to tell if it's serious or surreal.

As expected. Any chance of supporting your nonsense "entire nation" claim? No, of course not. But sure don't let the facts interfere with your "the whole world is against us" Little Englanderism.

The Rape of Lucretia · 14-10-2016 08:18PM

Deleted User wrote: »

"My country right or wrong" will be your epitaph.

But to be fair, is the country that was once the mightiest empire in the world, the country that brought civilisation to much of the world, led the world in industry, trade, and technological and scientific invention, and bailed out continental Europe, twice, from its own family infighting, not entitled to take back control ?

First Up · 14-10-2016 08:24PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote:

But to be fair, is the country that was once the mighties empire in the world, the country that brought civilisation to much of the world, lead the world in industry, trade, and technological and scientific invention, and bailed out continental Europe, twice, from its own family infighting, not entitled to take back control ?

Control of what?

The Rape of Lucretia · 14-10-2016 08:24PM

First Up wrote: »

Control of what?

Control.

Fratton Fred · 14-10-2016 08:32PM

brummytom wrote: »

I'd agree with it, actually. It's obviously not a good thing but there definitely is a noticeable (and rigid) class system that just doesn't seem to exist in Ireland.

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but I'm curious. Where the hell do you come across upper class people in Birmingham?

Fratton Fred · 14-10-2016 08:40PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As expected. Any chance of supporting your nonsense "entire nation" claim? No, of course not. But sure don't let the facts interfere with your "the whole world is against us" Little Englanderism.

It's funny, the "little Englanders" you are obsessed with, are no different to you, other than their nationality of course.

Junkyard Tom · 14-10-2016 09:09PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

the country that brought civilisation to much of the world,

Civilisation? Is that what we're calling subjugation, slavery, torture, famine, and mass-murder, these days?

bailed out continental Europe

I think you'll find that was the US and the Soviet Union.

That's exactly the type of jingoistic 'Britannia Rules the waves' bull**** mentioned above.

First Up · 14-10-2016 09:11PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote:

Control.

Yes, of what?

The Rape of Lucretia · 14-10-2016 09:32PM

First Up wrote: »

Yes, of what?

Well, of itself, its destiny, the sceptred isle, independence, self determination, of Britishness, Englishness, of the spirit of the empire on which the sun never set, and divorce itself from the mediocre splodge of Europudding federacy before it is too late.

First Up · 14-10-2016 09:39PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote:

Well, of itself, its destiny, the sceptred isle, independence, self determination, of Britishness, Englishness, of the spirit of the empire on which the sun never set, and divorce itself from the mediocre splodge of Europudding federacy before it is too late.

Sounds better when put to music.

catbear · 14-10-2016 09:40PM

I believe the next state of the Brexit process will be England turning on itself. Attacking foreigners obviously isn't giving them any leverage in their power games with the EU so obviously the fault must lie within.

The Rape of Lucretia · 14-10-2016 09:46PM

First Up wrote: »

Sounds better when put to music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKaJ4b0XYmI

maryishere · 14-10-2016 09:59PM

catbear wrote: »

I believe the next state of the Brexit process will be England turning on itself.

It will not be long until Europe turns on itself. Poland does not want to accept its share of the million refugees that Merkel invited in to Europe. Here in Ireland we too, what was it, 42 refugees this year so far? No wonder Germany despises us and our corruption, especially after the Apple tax ruling. When Greece and Spain and Italy and Portugal cannot keep borrowing more and more and more, and German workers refuse to keep working hard to keep the lazier southern Europeans in the style to which they have bvecome accustomed, you will see more and more countries leaving the red tape of the EU.

steddyeddy · 14-10-2016 10:01PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Behold. The ultimate little Irelander has spoken.

Do you really believe the bigoted tripe you post, because it's hard to tell if it's serious or surreal.

In fairness Fred there's a class of British poster on here who constantly defend any of the British crimes in Ireland and or Northern Ireland. We're two countries with a nasty history together. Some trolls seem to prey on that.

steddyeddy · 14-10-2016 10:02PM

maryishere wrote: »

It will not be long until Europe turns on itself. Poland does not want to accept its share of the million refugees that Merkel invited in to Europe. Here in Ireland we too, what was it, 42 refugees this year so far? No wonder Germany despises us and our corruption, especially after the Apple tax ruling. When Greece and Spain and Italy and Portugal cannot keep borrowing more and more and more, and German workers refuse to keep working hard to keep the lazier southern Europeans in the style to which they have bvecome accustomed, you will see more and more countries leaving the red tape of the EU.

You OK hun? Xox

steddyeddy · 14-10-2016 10:06PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

But to be fair, is the country that was once the mightiest empire in the world, the country that brought civilisation to much of the world, led the world in industry, trade, and technological and scientific invention, and bailed out continental Europe, twice, from its own family infighting, not entitled to take back control ?

You and the person who thanked that are indicative of the nationalism that caused Brexit. Delusions of granduer and an idea of Britain that comes from the ladybird book of the British Empire.

The empire you speak of is also despised in many parts of the world for replacing their country's civilisation with an imperialistic racist one.

The Rape of Lucretia · 14-10-2016 10:07PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

We're two countries with a nasty history together.

Are we not one country, that has recently, partly, and maybe only temporarily, split ?

maryishere · 14-10-2016 10:08PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

You OK hun? Xox

Splendid, old chap. Did you see the article in the Irish times the other day? It was the same as the German media have been saying recently. Wolfgang Münchau: "Ireland may have to consider leaving EU"
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/wolfgang-m%C3%BCnchau-ireland-may-have-to-consider-leaving-eu-1.2823535

steddyeddy · 14-10-2016 10:08PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Behold. The ultimate little Irelander has spoken.

Do you really believe the bigoted tripe you post, because it's hard to tell if it's serious or surreal.

Fred you're not akin to who thanked you but the two who did previously defended war crimes and terrorist collusion in Northern Ireland. It's not hard for people to get the wrong idea.

steddyeddy · 14-10-2016 10:09PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Are we not one country, that has recently, partly, and maybe only temporarily, split ?

No. Even the UK is not one country.

steddyeddy · 14-10-2016 10:10PM

maryishere wrote: »

Splendid, old chap. Did you see the article in the Irish times the other day? It was the same as the German media have been saying recently. Wolfgang Münchau: "Ireland may have to consider leaving EU"
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/wolfgang-m%C3%BCnchau-ireland-may-have-to-consider-leaving-eu-1.2823535

Well judging by the state of the UK at the moment I'd rather not go down that route.

UK Votes to leave EU

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