UK Votes to leave EU

steddyeddy · 14-10-2016 11:53AM

From the Independent. Donald Tusk, president of the European council said it will be hard Brexit or no Brexit. It looks like US banks are definitely moving some of their activities out of the UK. I think the Brexiters have ruined the future for the children and grandchildren. The Uk's best bet is to re-join the European union.

French finance Minister Michel Sapin said that US banks had confirmed to him they would move some activities out of Britain to other European countries as the UK prepares to leave the EU.

Sapin revealed that the executives of major US banks have told him they were working on contingency plans, after their meeting last week in Washington.

“While in Washington I spoke to large American businesses and banks,” Sapin said at press conference in Paris.

Passporting negotiations will be 'painstaking', says BoE top official
“Until now their question was whether Brexit will happen or might it take longer than expected. That’s over. They are telling us clearly that there will be a transfer of activity. It’s no longer a question of if but when. I don’t know to what extent or which ones.”

"That's the inevitable consequence whatever the outcome of the Brexit negotiations," he added.

His comments came after Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council warned that a “hard Brexit” was Britain’s only option, dismissing the claims of the Leave campaign the that the UK could “have its cake and eat it.”

Tusk added there could be “no compromises” on retaining benefits such as access to the single market and customs union, while rejecting the free movement of people.

The loss of these rights could be devastating to the City of London as nearly 5,500 firms registered in the UK use passporting rights to operate in other countries.

Senior city bankers from US bank Citi and Morgan Stanley already said that jobs would have to move back into the EU if Britain was shut out of the single market.

Meanwhile, John Nelson, the chairman of Lloyd’s of London, described the Brexit vote as “major issue”, saying the bank is working on contingency plans to ensure it can still trade across Europe when Article 50 is triggered.

steddyeddy · 14-10-2016 11:54AM

wes wrote: »

I think the reactions of Brexiters to the falling pound and to anyone daring to point out some negative consequences is interesting. Surely, if you believe Brexit is going to be a success, they could argue as to why these issues are not that big a deal, as opposed to the nonsense about "remoaners" or whatever nonsense they can come up with.

Also, the victim mentality they have vis a vi the EU. They seem to believe that the club they chose to leave (the reasons being rather hilariously due to stuff there own elected governments supported over the years) owes them something, and that denying them the benefits of the membership, which again they chosen to end, is some how vindictive behavior. Its hilarious the amount of sheer arrogance, and entitlement that is being displayed. Brexit is Brexit, right?

At the end of the day, if the EU is so awful, then why are so many Brexiters annoyed by the EU position? After all the UK can now make all those wonderful trade deals in like a few months or whatever time line they have. What the big deal? If the EU is so awful, then so what if they lose financial pass porting, and so what if there are tariffs, while a free trade deal is sorted out?

The Brexiters are surprisingly worried about being close to the EU, for people who believe it to be the root of all there countries problems. They shouldn't be surprised that the EU, isn't going to be black mailed by them, and accept that there leaving and it might be not be on the great terms promised by Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage. Its seem that EU understands this better than some Brexiters, out is out!

Their reaction is priceless. First they said there would be no consequences, then there will be but it's worth it and now there's some that are blaming "project fear" for the falling pound. Complete idiots.

wes · 14-10-2016 11:55AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

From the Independent. Donald Tusk, president of the European council said it will be hard Brexit or no Brexit.

Its just common sense. Its whats the Brexiters want. Nothing the EU can do about the choice of the British people at the end of the day. The EU shouldn't be black mailed by Brexiters insane demands to destroy itself for the benefit of Britain. Our own interests come first, and if that doesn't work out of the British, then its nothing personally, just like there complete disregard for the peace process in the North was nothing personal.

GreenFolder2 · 14-10-2016 12:00PM

What concerns me is that the UK has really only very recently turned the leaf and become all progressive and outward looking. Even take a look back to the 1970s and 80s and you'd very big issues with racism and xenophobia.

For most of its history it has been a colonial power with extremely negative attitude towards race, class, neighbouring European countries and any "other" you can think of.

I wonder was that actually gone away or was it more that the topics had become taboo and just had no platform for expression.

I'm not trying to slag off the UK and this argument applies to a lot of countries, but I think you need to be careful to see both sides of it. It has an extremely socially progressive as side and an extremely socially regressive one and they alternate back and forth without much consensus.

It's very easy to assume it's an homogenous place where everyone thinks like Londoners or Mancunians. The reality is far from it.

I think all you're seeing now is a flip of the bipolar political switch towards the right. It will eventually flip back again but not without doing a lot of damage first.

Ireland's voting system tends to (and was deliberately designed to) cause a consensus position to emerge. The UK and US systems absolutely don't. It's always hegemony by a narrow technical majority.

Ted_YNWA · 14-10-2016 12:35PM

steddyeddy wrote:

From the Independent. Donald Tusk, president of the European council said it will be hard Brexit or no Brexit. It looks like US banks are definitely moving some of their activities out of the UK. I think the Brexiters have ruined the future for the children and grandchildren. The Uk's best bet is to re-join the European union.

It would be political suicide to leave & rejoin down the road. Isn't joining the Euro currency a prerequisite now for new members.

FrancieBrady · 14-10-2016 12:45PM

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

I wonder was that actually gone away or was it more that the topics had become taboo and just had no platform for expression.

I think you have hit a nail on the head here. The mentality that enjoyed Love Thy Neighbour, It Ain’t Half Hot Mum and Mind Your Language has not disappeared at all.
Racism and xenophobia have not disappeared in the UK, it is all still there and found expression and confidence in the Brexit ref.

Fratton Fred · 14-10-2016 12:53PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think you have hit a nail on the head here. The mentality that enjoyed Love Thy Neighbour, It Ain’t Half Hot Mum and Mind Your Language has not disappeared at all.
Racism and xenophobia have not disappeared in the UK, it is all still there and found expression and confidence in the Brexit ref.

oh please. That's a human disease that we haven't eradicated yet, it is in no way unique to the UK, nor is the UK immune from it. Hell, half this thread is just people expressing their own version of xenophobia.

GreenFolder2 · 14-10-2016 12:54PM

Catherine Tate is actually a really good social commentator :

The "northern English couple" sitting in the couch being horrified at grapes on *French* bread in a cheese sandwich or anything else mildly "foreign".

"Nan" being a general foul-mouthed xenophobic, homophobic, racist salt-of-the-earth anachronism.

The Ginger Sanctuary sketch ....

All that stuff has basis in reality somewhere.

...

A lot of things in the UK seem to operate in bubbles of "those are other people we don't think like that".

You can happily exist reading the guardian, hanging out with your liberal friends etc or happily reading the Express and Daily Mail while moaning about immigrants stealing the job you never applied for.

It's like you've multiple parallel UKs divided by a rigid class system and regionalism all coexisting only vaguely aware of each other.

Ireland isn't quite that stratified and fractured because it's smaller but also because it doesn't have a formalised class system.

It's very easy to pretend the class system doesn't exist anymore. It absolutely does and it's a real shock when you're suddenly confronted by it.

FrancieBrady · 14-10-2016 12:55PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

oh please. That's a human disease that we haven't eradicated yet, it is in no way unique to the UK, nor is the UK immune from it. Hell, half this thread is just people expressing their own version of xenophobia.

I never said it was unique. You are being over protective...again.

catbear · 14-10-2016 01:01PM

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

Ireland's voting system tends to (and was deliberately designed to) cause a consensus position to emerge. The UK and US systems absolutely don't. It's always hegemony by a narrow technical majority.

As a society they seem to be approaching Brexit like one of their elections, confrontational and winner takes all. They expect 27 members who've got this far by slow consensus building to suddenly change all that to suit one domestic non binding vote in a country that no longer sits at the table.

steddyeddy · 14-10-2016 01:01PM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

I'm talking about a scenario where they are no longer subsidised.
Which at the moment is most definitely and if rather then a when.

I live in England. From those who voted remain I hear that unification is a natural progression. From those on the leave side I hear that reunification is a natural way around the problems of borders.

Every large poll in Britain bar one has come out in favor of reunification. You may say it's up to the people of northern Ireland but in reality it's up to the people who fund them.

Watch any politics show in northern Ireland and they're not living in the real world. They're talking about hating the other side, getting in the fact that they're British in some cases, talking about flags and acting out of hate for the other side.

No one wants to fund that and especially a poorer post Brexit UK.

daithi7 · 14-10-2016 01:12PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I live in England. From those who voted remain I hear that unification is a natural progression. From those on the leave side I hear that reunification is a natural way around the problems of borders.

Every large poll in Britain bar one has come out in favor of reunification. You may say it's up to the people of northern Ireland but in reality it's up to the people who fund them. .......

No, I wouldn't say that at all. Unifying the hugely indebted Republic of Ireland with the currently heavily subsidized pseudo state in NI, would have to be voted for by a majority in the Republic of Ireland , and also by a majority in Northern Ireland simultaneously.

For instance, as a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, I would vote no.

Fratton Fred · 14-10-2016 01:20PM

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

Catherine Tate is actually a really good social commentator :

The "northern English couple" sitting in the couch being horrified at grapes on *French* bread in a cheese sandwich or anything else mildly "foreign".

"Nan" being a general foul-mouthed xenophobic, homophobic, racist salt-of-the-earth anachronism.

The Ginger Sanctuary sketch ....

All that stuff has basis in reality somewhere.

...

A lot of things in the UK seem to operate in bubbles of "those are other people we don't think like that".

You can happily exist reading the guardian, hanging out with your liberal friends etc or happily reading the Express and Daily Mail while moaning about immigrants stealing the job you never applied for.

It's like you've multiple parallel UKs divided by a rigid class system and regionalism all coexisting only vaguely aware of each other.

Ireland isn't quite that stratified and fractured because it's smaller but also because it doesn't have a formalised class system.

It's very easy to pretend the class system doesn't exist anymore. It absolutely does and it's a real shock when you're suddenly confronted by it.

I'm curious, which part of the UK do you live in?

Fratton Fred · 14-10-2016 01:24PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I never said it was unique. You are being over protective...again.

I'm not being over protective at all, I am pointing out a fact.

you and many others are very good at pointing out all the faults with the British, because they're nasty xenophobes. not like us, no, we are different.

GreenFolder2 · 14-10-2016 01:25PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm curious, which part of the UK do you live in?

I've lived in London, rural Yorkshire and Hull. So I've a good bit of perspective on England actually.

Fratton Fred · 14-10-2016 01:27PM

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

I've lived in London, rural Yorkshire and Hull. So I've a good bit of perspective on England actually.

no, no you haven't.

FrancieBrady · 14-10-2016 01:28PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm not being over protective at all, I am pointing out a fact.

you and many others are very good at pointing out all the faults with the British, because they're nasty xenophobes. not like us, no, we are different.

The conversation is about the UK voting to leave the EU.
You are just reacting, rather cutely, to criticism of the UK(as you do on almost every other thread where the subject is the UK) and probing why this has happened.
I never said they are 'nasty xenopobes' I said xenophobia has always existed in the UK and has found expression and confidence in this referendum. Do you think that is correct or not, because most people/commentators believe it was a huge factor.

catbear · 14-10-2016 01:29PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

no, no you haven't.

You've made some good contributions but comments like that just undermine them. I'm disappointed.

Fratton Fred · 14-10-2016 01:32PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The conversation is about the UK voting to leave the EU.
You are just reacting, rather cutely, to criticism of the UK(as you do on almost every other thread where the subject is the UK) and probing why this has happened.
I never said they are 'nasty xenopobes' I said xenophobia has always existed in the UK and has found expression and confidence in this referendum. Do you think that is correct or not, because most people/commentators believe it was a huge factor.

What you are doing, is showing your own xenophobia to be honest.

A Little Pony · 14-10-2016 01:38PM

daithi7 wrote: »

MrPudding wrote: »

We can apply Occam's Razor to this. Is Teresa May attempting a highly complex political manoeuvre, involving, presumably without their knowledge, the three brexit bellends, in an attempt to subtly convince the 52% of the population (that are apparently immune to reason and logic) that they made the wrong decision, even though they apparently don't care whether or not they make the wrong decision or is she actually simply monumentally stupid?

Every once in a while it isn't a cunning plan. Sometimes people are, quite simply, stupid, often monumentally so.

As a keen remainer, I would love to believe that May was as cunning as a fox that, before getting into politics was professor of cunning at Oxford University (thank you Baldrick), but there simply isn't any evidence of that. As Home Secretary she was long lived, but really a horrible human being that, for example, failed every single attempt to curb immigration (which doubtless contributed to the atmosphere that gave us the leave vote) and carried out a successful character assassination of both the EU and human rights, again helping with the exit vote.

As Prime Minister what has she done? Aside from really fcuking irritating constantly saying "let me be clear" and/or "brexit means brexit" what has she done? She is planning on expanding grammar schools and in doing so she is ignoring the mountains of evidence that show this policy will do exactly the opposite of what she says she wants. That is not a sign of not being stupid.

So I'm afraid I am going to have to go ahead and ask you for evidence of your assertion that she is not stupid. I will allow that she might be intelligent but also psychopathic/sociopathic in the sense that she is going down the current path not to avoid brexit, but, because however bad brexit is for the country and the people that voted for it, she will be fine and might actually benefit. But that isn't what you are suggesting.

MrP

Great post. I'm still finding it hard to believe that the British people have been so silly as to go down this isolating road. Politics has taken over now, and a close vote, which imho was mostly just a protest vote that not many thought would actually win, is now often being misinterpreted as the people wanting a hard Brexit, no Europeans coming to visit, study, work and live in the UK, hard borders, barriers to trade, etc, etc, etc

Bollox to that.

The people of the UK voted to leave the EU, that's it.

If May is smart as a stateswoman, and I don't know that she is, she can surely find a way to evolve to a Norwegian/Swiss Efta type arrangement, with low barriers to trade and movement of people internally within Europe while also keeping the lunatic fringe, arrogant, isolationist , bullish Brexiters at bay.. Is that really too much to ask?!?

What could possibly be lunatic about wanting to be a free and independent country? You might disagree with it but to call it lunatic is odd.

FrancieBrady · 14-10-2016 01:49PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What you are doing, is showing your own xenophobia to be honest.

How so?

I think the UK have elected to do something that will have a huge impact on us.

Again, the conversation is about the UK. A place I love and enjoy and respect but have some criticisms to make about.
Why are you overly protective of it right across these boards?

GreenFolder2 · 14-10-2016 02:03PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

no, no you haven't.

Checked my NI number and list of utility bills now have you?

Just because you don't agree with someone does not mean you have a right to just personally attack them to discredit their posts on boards.

You know nothing about me. So please do not make statements about where I lived or haven't lived!

Fratton Fred · 14-10-2016 02:09PM

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

Checked my NI number and list of utility bills now have you?

Just because you don't agree with someone does not mean you have a right to just personally attack them to discredit their posts on boards.

You know nothing about me. So please do not make statements about where I lived or haven't lived!

The comment was that you do not have a good understanding of the British people, not that you haven't lived there.

I appreciate that it wasn't clear.

Fratton Fred · 14-10-2016 02:11PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How so?

I think the UK have elected to do something that will have a huge impact on us.

Again, the conversation is about the UK. A place I love and enjoy and respect but have some criticisms to make about.
Why are you overly protective of it right across these boards?

you are making sweeping, unsubstantiated claims about an entire nation of people, which includes me, my family, friends etc. Of course I am going to call out when i believe you are wrong.

FrancieBrady · 14-10-2016 02:12PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The comment was that you do not have a good understanding of the British people, not that you haven't lived there.

That is just arrogance on your behalf.
You are renowned on these boards for over protection of all things UK/British. This is just more of it. Shoot the messenger, so to speak.

FrancieBrady · 14-10-2016 02:15PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you are making sweeping, unsubstantiated claims about an entire nation of people, which includes me, my family, friends etc. Of course I am going to call out when i believe you are wrong.

Entirely wrong, I claimed 'xenophobia exists in the UK', you 'claimed' I said they are all 'nasty xenophobes'.
In other words, you huffed about somebody criticizing your beloved UK.

catbear · 14-10-2016 02:29PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you are making sweeping, unsubstantiated claims about an entire nation of people, which includes me, my family, friends etc. Of course I am going to call out when i believe you are wrong.

If you take others general opinions personally then maybe it's time to step away from the keyboard.

If you hear an counteracting opinion about a nations fortunes you don't agree with then fine, agree to disagree but taking it as a personal affront is futile.

GreenFolder2 · 14-10-2016 02:31PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The comment was that you do not have a good understanding of the British people, not that you haven't lived there.

I appreciate that it wasn't clear.

I would actually reckon having both English (not Irish living in England but actually English-English) family, having lived in England and having the ability to juxtapose that with having lived in Ireland, the US, France, Germany and several other places should give me a good perspective on the place.

I have worked in London in very liberal circles where you'd never even contemplate that Brexit was anywhere even remotely on the agenda and I've lived and worked in Hull, for example, where you'd be completely shocked that the EU hadn't already self-combusted and would wonder why the UK was ever in it in the first place.

There are a hell of a lot of different experiences of the UK. It's an unusual country in the sense that you have an actual formalised class system and my experience of it is that middle-class Brits pretend that doesn't exist and to a degree Irish people and other 'blow ins' tend to operate outside it entirely. However, it's a real shocker when you hear someone describing things in terms of class and the sheer immobility of it. I don't think most Irish people actually understand how rigid that is. It's almost like the Irish loyalty to county. If you identify as working class, you're working class. It doesn't matter if you have a PhD from Cambridge, you'll always be working class. If you're middle class, you'll always be middle class and if you're upper class, well.. you'll have a title most likely and operate in a completely different realm where everything's lovely and you don't even realise you're being elitist.

If you look at it historically in the UK voting patterns were entirely class-bound. There's been a little break away recently, but it's more that UKIP has eaten into some of the working class vote and Labour has moved to the champagne socialist end of the market.

You also have enormous regional divides, especially between London and "Up North" and then Northern Ireland and Scotland basically run as parallel entities without any real reference to what's going on in England. Northern Ireland's been like that since the 1920s and Scotland's increasingly no longer operating the same political system as England since the rise of the SNP and the absolute decimation of the Tories up there.

I just think that compared to my experience of Ireland, France, Germany and even the US there's far less of a single national identity and far less political consensus.

I know the US is wildly divided left-right but at the end of the day, they will all consider themselves Americans when push comes to shove. That's not quite true in the UK by a long shot. It is very much about sub-UK national identity and strong regional identities in England (mostly London / Home counties vs The North)

That's why I think in general Brexit is a HUGE shock for the majority of those on the remain side in the UK.

You'd effectively two different audiences, reading totally different media, talking exclusively to themselves and relatively few people swinging in the middle.
Effectively you had the Remain and Leave sides rallying the troops and not quite interacting or even having any kind of meaningful debate.

It's also why I don't think the UK has really gotten to grips with some massive incidents: The London Riots and also the shooting of the Labour Party MP, Jo Cox.

Both of those massive events seem to have sort of been put down to "oh well, that was a bit weird, it was obviously "them" " (whoever "them" is...) So, there's been no real discourse or analysis or fixing it.

I find the same applies to the Northern Irish troubles. They're actually a UK problem, but the UK just disowns them and always has when it comes to public discourse. Everything is always some "other" when it comes to anything that is negative.

The problem now with Brexit is that there isn't a consensus point of view on it in the UK by a long shot and it's inevitably going to turn nasty as factions blame other factions as the economy starts to tank, which is almost a given at this stage.

FrancieBrady · 14-10-2016 02:32PM

catbear wrote: »

If you take others general opinions personally then maybe it's time to step away from the keyboard.

If you hear an counteracting opinion about a nations fortunes you don't agree with then fine, agree to disagree but taking it as a personal affront is futile.

It's just Fred's familiar strategy, make stuff up about what was said.

Fratton Fred · 14-10-2016 03:06PM

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

I would actually reckon having both English (not Irish living in England but actually English-English) family, having lived in England and having the ability to juxtapose that with having lived in Ireland, the US, France, Germany and several other places should give me a good perspective on the place.

I have worked in London in very liberal circles where you'd never even contemplate that Brexit was anywhere even remotely on the agenda and I've lived and worked in Hull, for example, where you'd be completely shocked that the EU hadn't already self-combusted and would wonder why the UK was ever in it in the first place.

There are a hell of a lot of different experiences of the UK. It's an unusual country in the sense that you have an actual formalised class system and my experience of it is that middle-class Brits pretend that doesn't exist and to a degree Irish people and other 'blow ins' tend to operate outside it entirely. However, it's a real shocker when you hear someone describing things in terms of class and the sheer immobility of it. I don't think most Irish people actually understand how rigid that is. It's almost like the Irish loyalty to county. If you identify as working class, you're working class. It doesn't matter if you have a PhD from Cambridge, you'll always be working class. If you're middle class, you'll always be middle class and if you're upper class, well.. you'll have a title most likely and operate in a completely different realm where everything's lovely and you don't even realise you're being elitist.

If you look at it historically in the UK voting patterns were entirely class-bound. There's been a little break away recently, but it's more that UKIP has eaten into some of the working class vote and Labour has moved to the champagne socialist end of the market.

You also have enormous regional divides, especially between London and "Up North" and then Northern Ireland and Scotland basically run as parallel entities without any real reference to what's going on in England. Northern Ireland's been like that since the 1920s and Scotland's increasingly no longer operating the same political system as England since the rise of the SNP and the absolute decimation of the Tories up there.

I just think that compared to my experience of Ireland, France, Germany and even the US there's far less of a single national identity and far less political consensus.

I know the US is wildly divided left-right but at the end of the day, they will all consider themselves Americans when push comes to shove. That's not quite true in the UK by a long shot. It is very much about sub-UK national identity and strong regional identities in England (mostly London / Home counties vs The North)

That's why I think in general Brexit is a HUGE shock for the majority of those on the remain side in the UK.

You'd effectively two different audiences, reading totally different media, talking exclusively to themselves and relatively few people swinging in the middle.
Effectively you had the Remain and Leave sides rallying the troops and not quite interacting or even having any kind of meaningful debate.

It's also why I don't think the UK has really gotten to grips with some massive incidents: The London Riots and also the shooting of the Labour Party MP, Jo Cox.

Both of those massive events seem to have sort of been put down to "oh well, that was a bit weird, it was obviously "them" " (whoever "them" is...) So, there's been no real discourse or analysis or fixing it.

I find the same applies to the Northern Irish troubles. They're actually a UK problem, but the UK just disowns them and always has when it comes to public discourse. Everything is always some "other" when it comes to anything that is negative.

The problem now with Brexit is that there isn't a consensus point of view on it in the UK by a long shot and it's inevitably going to turn nasty as factions blame other factions as the economy starts to tank, which is almost a given at this stage.

I'd agree with a lot of what you have said there, but the class thing? I must have been living in a bubble for thirty odd years, because i don't think i ever came across it. Now if you'd said the school you went to was a differentiator, then I'd be inclined to agree, but the whole class thing is a complete misnomer. What the **** is working/middle class anyway?

I'm quite surprised you are surprised about regional differences, personally I'm living in a country with three basic "Ethnic" groups, Jackeen, travellers and Culchies where the difference between the capital and west coast could be ten thousand miles.

UK Votes to leave EU

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