UK Votes to leave EU

wes · 11-10-2016 11:17AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

The Times managed to get their hands on some files from the Treasury that say a hard Brexit will see up to 66 Billion lost in tax revenues a year. It seems the cabinet has seen this and no doubt the EU negotiators will have seen it and/or know it already. A hard Brexit its madness. Like previous posters I think May might be doing this on purpose to generate backlash. She's quite intelligent.

Brexit means Brexit as May said, and it seems the Tory government wants a hard Brexit. It wrecking there economy is neither here nor there apparently. Its what the Brexiters wanted, and what they voted for, and its no less than what they deserve imho.

Now for the other 48% who voted remain, I really do feel bad for there situation, as the Torys have embraced the idea of the tyranny of the majority. They have chosen to ignore the 48% who voted remain completely, which I think will come back to bite them in the ass in the future.

Risteard81 · 11-10-2016 11:22AM

wes wrote: »

The British electorate didn't give a crap about the North, but acting in what they saw there own best interests.

Whilst it's true that the British electorate doesn't care about the Six Counties (except in an illegal imperialist way) the true position of the Six Counties is opposition to the illegal so-called "EU". The Provos betrayed all Republican ideology supporting the remain side. This, of course, isn't the first time that this pro-British party betrayed Republican philosophy - not least when they voted to enter Leinster House in 1986 and committed treason and expelled themselves from the Republican Movement.

Chips Lovell · 11-10-2016 11:23AM

Risteard81 wrote: »

...the illegal so-called "EU"....

So-called? What's it really called then?

daithi7 · 11-10-2016 11:27AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Pretty much. Which highlights the fundamental stupidity of a referendum asking for a mandate for a negative policy - not to be a member of the Union. There's no mandate for any positive policy, and an awful lot of voters who thought they were voting for, e.g., restrictions on emigration, or more NHS funding, or economic deregulation, or better protection for the interests of British workers, or the repeal of the Human Rights Act, or whatever are going to feel betrayed. Some of the things that some of the voters thought would happen will happen, to some degree, but it's inevitable that with no clear proposals about what would happen, and such a wide variety of expectations, most expectations won't be met and there's going to be much more disappointment that satisfaction.

Absolutely agree.

Also without trying to confuse the issue, and this is more about semantics, but it does lead to your more substantial argument, I always thought (assuming the Uk gov wanted to remain) the question the UK electorate should have been asked is 'Do you wish to remain in EU?'

This would have meant that the electorate would be voting yes to stay, a positive, and no to leave, a negative. Yes, this is semantics to an extent, but it's also psychological. People prefer positive outcomes, remember the Irish EU referendum (maastricht, I think) where the posters & billboard for simply urged ,Yes, Qui, Si, Ja, etc, etc, etc (a very simple, but powerful, consistent message to any electorate)

Also, I believe that by framing the remain option as the positive, they would have forced the leave side to adopt the negative, and hence would have been forced to justify it in more detail & under more scrutiny than they were otherwise.

Regardless, sadly, we are where we are. And in this highly interconnected world, by putting up barriers to trade, movement of people& labour, etc, etc we will all be left with a significantly weaker& poorer UK, a significantly weakened & isolated Ireland, and a weakened EU, with less trade and prosperity all round.

Anyone who thinks that is a good outcome is seriously deluded.

P.s. imho, the UK government and parliament should have been strong and should not have ratified the referendum result and put it back to the people (perhaps with a few minor concessions on outside EU immigration/migration matters,) to see if this was really what the people wanted. I suspect it wasn't, and that a second vote would have verified this, but politics has taken over and now I fear we're going to see positions becoming entrenched as negotiations eventually get underway. The Brits really fupped up here, unfortunately for them, us & the EU.

11-10-2016 11:29AM

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

So-called? What's it really called then?

expect the illegal question to once again go illegally and so-called unanswered.

catbear · 11-10-2016 11:29AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

She's quite intelligent.

Intuitive yes, but I wouldn't go that far as to say intelligent yet. It wasn't exactly a great leadership contest, her last rival is now talking about the joys of post Brexit fruit picking.

With UKip having won a public mandate, there's no doubt that politically the Tories had to wipe out UKip and the only way was to absorb the UKip mandate in its entirety leaving UKip with nothing but their base animalistic tendencies. Future UKip leadership contests will be under mixed martial arts rules. Mission accomplished for May there.

Now comes the big battle, now we see how she'll actually handle Brexit. Is six more months long enough a period of economic reversals for a public mood shift, an emergency Brexit budget before Xmas, more cuts to cuts to the NHS to pay for Brexit,.....will that be enough to force her to call an election to prorogue Brexit and be assured a return to government with the Tory euroskeptics purged?

If she pulls that off I will be impressed.

Cina · 11-10-2016 11:32AM

First Up wrote: »

They will have access, just on less favourable terms.

We don't really know what level of access though. All signs seem to point towards a "hard" Brexit so they will not have any of the benefits of Norway or Switzerland - it can also take years and years to form these trade deals because they're so complex, and added to the fact that the EU might take a very tough stance on the UK as a result of them leaving, it's very possible their 'access' could be very, very limited, at least for a while.

Fratton Fred · 11-10-2016 11:36AM

wes wrote: »

Brexit means Brexit as May said, and it seems the Tory government wants a hard Brexit. It wrecking there economy is neither here nor there apparently. Its what the Brexiters wanted, and what they voted for, and its no less than what they deserve imho

Do you know what the Brexiters wanted? The fishing industry in Peterhead is already convinced the eu has wrecked their economy.

Fratton Fred · 11-10-2016 11:42AM

Cina wrote: »

We don't really know what level of access though. All signs seem to point towards a "hard" Brexit so they will not have any of the benefits of Norway or Switzerland - it can also take years and years to form these trade deals because they're so complex, and added to the fact that the EU might take a very tough stance on the UK as a result of them leaving, it's very possible their 'access' could be very, very limited, at least for a while.

That would mean the eu breaching WTO principles, which I doubt it is keen to do.

wes · 11-10-2016 11:50AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Do you know what the Brexiters wanted?

They wanted out of the EU, and thats exactly what there getting. Them not thinking through the consequences is there problem.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The fishing industry in Peterhead is already convinced the eu has wrecked their economy.

Yes, the EU is blamed on all sorts of things by Brexiters, and hence one way or the other they will get what they voted for. It might work out for them, but there own governments figures seem to not agree.

AllGunsBlazing · 11-10-2016 11:51AM

May is a brexiter. Her one endorsement speech for the remain campaign read more like an indictment of the EU. She was probably as suprised as anyone by the result but by no means was she devastated by it.

To row back on brexit now will require another leadership change for the Conservatives because she's definitely gonna go for it.

catbear · 11-10-2016 11:53AM

The Torygraph had a soft/hard brexit poll today, so far soft brexit is ahead.

A Little Pony · 11-10-2016 11:55AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Most people who voted out don't actually care. People voted for economic or immigration reasons and a few other reasons.

I realise that. But when you say that people voted "for economic reasons" you mean, don't you, that they thought that the UK would be better off, economically, outside the EU? Which is pretty much what maryishere is trying to say, by pointing out that the EU share of global output has been declining. The implication is that the EU is on a bad economic trajectory, and that if the UK leaves the EU it can escape that.

The implication is wrong, of course, for the reasons already pointed out - the UK's departure from the EU will do nothing to stop the rise of China, Brazil, India, etc. Thus, those who are voting for Brexit out of a belief that it will improve the UK's economic position are - to my mind - misguided. At any rate, the economic argument which maryishere advances does not stand up to examination.

In 10 years time citizens of the UK will wonder why they didn't leave earlier. The EU is doomed as seen by the disaster economies in Southern Europe. I don't see the UK being the only one to leave.
It doesn't work as a model and once people feel like they are losing democratic control, it is over.

josip · 11-10-2016 11:56AM

catbear wrote: »

The Torygraph had a soft/hard brexit poll today, so far soft brexit is ahead.

Probably because the British interpret soft Brexit as having their cake and eating it.
'Brexit' and 'soft' are mutually exclusive.

AllGunsBlazing · 11-10-2016 11:59AM

Is there even such a thing as a "soft brexit"? I can't imagine Brussels would countenance such a thing as it would set a dangerous precedent for any other members who are starting to question the whole project.

steddyeddy · 11-10-2016 12:10PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

In 10 years time citizens of the UK will wonder why they didn't leave earlier. The EU is doomed as seen by the disaster economies in Southern Europe. I don't see the UK being the only one to leave.
It doesn't work as a model and once people feel like they are losing democratic control, it is over.

According to the UK's own treasurey, leaving will be a diasaster.

catbear · 11-10-2016 12:20PM

AllGunsBlazing wrote: »

Is there even such a thing as a "soft brexit"? I can't imagine Brussels would countenance such a thing as it would set a dangerous precedent for any other members who are starting to question the whole project.

Yes there is actually. They leave the EU which respects the vote but stay in the customs union or join EEA. Obviously this can only happen if they accept free movement but by then economics may have taken centre stage.

Somehow though I think they'd rather bugger themselves than accept free movement.

A Little Pony · 11-10-2016 12:21PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

In 10 years time citizens of the UK will wonder why they didn't leave earlier. The EU is doomed as seen by the disaster economies in Southern Europe. I don't see the UK being the only one to leave.
It doesn't work as a model and once people feel like they are losing democratic control, it is over.

According to the UK's own treasurey, leaving will be a diasaster.

It never is a disaster and I doubt this time will be any different.

steddyeddy · 11-10-2016 12:26PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

It never is a disaster and I doubt this time will be any different.

What do you mean never is? It has never happened before.

Enzokk · 11-10-2016 12:36PM

I think the UK has a plan, keep talking about how great the Brexit will be and how they will get everything they want. Try to convince themselves and eventually the EU will agree to it as well, come hell or high water for the EU. You get the feeling they would burn down the EU to try and prove they were right to leave instead of facing the truth that this will hurt them more than they really want to admit.

Kotek Besar · 11-10-2016 12:40PM

I think we should all remember that only half of the UK actually chose Brexit and many of those that did came to regret it, because they voted out on the back of false information or they wanted to make a protest without realising "out" would win. All they need is a second referendum and sanity would prevail.

catbear · 11-10-2016 12:41PM

Enzokk wrote: »

I think the UK has a plan, keep talking about how great the Brexit will be and how they will get everything they want. Try to convince themselves and eventually the EU will agree to it as well, come hell or high water for the EU. You get the feeling they would burn down the EU to try and prove they were right to leave instead of facing the truth that this will hurt them more than they really want to admit.

That's not a plan. That an attitude formed over hundreds of year of having their own way.

First Up · 11-10-2016 12:49PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Do you know what the Brexiters wanted? The fishing industry in Peterhead is already convinced the eu has wrecked their economy.

Access simply means they will be allowed do business. There is zero chance that UK/EU trade would be blocked; it will just be on terms more restrictive than when they were part of the single market.

Risteard81 · 11-10-2016 12:50PM

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

...the illegal so-called "EU"....

So-called? What's it really called then?

So-called doesn't mean it doesn't call itself that - it means it does. But it's no union because we are not a united Europe - we are sovereign nations. It also isn't Europe - it is only parts of it (and perhaps places not even in Europe if these plans go ahead).

If you don't know what so-called means then don't put your stupidity on display for all and sundry to see.

Kotek Besar · 11-10-2016 12:52PM

Risteard81 wrote: »

So-called doesn't mean it doesn't call itself that - it means it does. But it's no union because we are not a united Europe - we are sovereign nations. It also isn't Europe - it is only parts of it (and perhaps places not even in Europe if these plans go ahead).

If you don't know what so-called means then don't put your stupidity on display for all and sundry to see.

Oh god..

AllGunsBlazing · 11-10-2016 12:52PM

Kotek Besar wrote: »

I think we should all remember that only half of the UK actually chose Brexit and many of those that did came to regret it, because they voted out on the back of false information or they wanted to make a protest without realising "out" would win. All they need is a second referendum and sanity would prevail.

Britain may yet pull back from brexit (only after another round of leadership changes in both parties) but a second referendum won't happen imo. You see, despite the polls, there's always a chance that you get the same result again. Which would be both humiliating and utterly catastrophic for the Conservatives and Labour.

Risteard81 · 11-10-2016 12:52PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Peregrinus wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Most people who voted out don't actually care. People voted for economic or immigration reasons and a few other reasons.

I realise that. But when you say that people voted "for economic reasons" you mean, don't you, that they thought that the UK would be better off, economically, outside the EU? Which is pretty much what maryishere is trying to say, by pointing out that the EU share of global output has been declining. The implication is that the EU is on a bad economic trajectory, and that if the UK leaves the EU it can escape that.

The implication is wrong, of course, for the reasons already pointed out - the UK's departure from the EU will do nothing to stop the rise of China, Brazil, India, etc. Thus, those who are voting for Brexit out of a belief that it will improve the UK's economic position are - to my mind - misguided. At any rate, the economic argument which maryishere advances does not stand up to examination.

In 10 years time citizens of the UK will wonder why they didn't leave earlier. The EU is doomed as seen by the disaster economies in Southern Europe. I don't see the UK being the only one to leave.
It doesn't work as a model and once people feel like they are losing democratic control, it is over.

And I welcome the death of the illegal criminal so-called "EU".

A Little Pony · 11-10-2016 12:54PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

It never is a disaster and I doubt this time will be any different.

What do you mean never is? It has never happened before.

People overreact by thinking the UK economy will fall apart. It won't and I think most people know this.

First Up · 11-10-2016 12:54PM

Risteard81 wrote: »

And I welcome the death of the illegal criminal so-called "EU".

OK, I'll bite;

Why is it illegal and criminal?

First Up · 11-10-2016 12:55PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

People overreact by thinking the UK economy will fall apart. It won't and I think most people know this.

Not fall apart; just steady decline.

UK Votes to leave EU

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