UK Votes to leave EU

FrancieBrady · 10-10-2016 11:33PM

maryishere wrote: »

Businesses which sell services in foreign jurisdictions usually hire staff in that jurisdiction, as they know the market there best, speak the local language etc. The UK is the 5th or 6th biggest economy in the world and currently trades services and goods with almost every country in the world - if outside the EC that would continue.

And the current situation where the UK pays much more in to EU funds than it gets back would not continue. It was great for us when we were getting the billions of EU money, but that is all over now. Our neighbours have decided to do what they think will be best for them. Its a bit pathetic and childish for us to whinge at their referendum decision when we were the benificaries of their genorousity for so many decades.

We aren't allowed to decry a decision that will directly affect us, because the UK did what they signed up to do when they joined the EEC/EU, which was to contribute??

That is the essence of hat doffing subservience we shook off 100 years ago.
Time to grow up and stand up for yourself.

maryishere · 10-10-2016 11:40PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

It would continue outside of the biggest single market in the world.

Correct, especially as the biggest single market in the world is a failed entity and has had the slowest growth of any region outside of Antartica.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That is the essence of hat doffing subservience we shook off 100 years ago.

lol subservience is the begging bowl mentality you subscribe to. The English have a much higher population density than say us or the French, and they wish to limit the increase in that in the future.

catbear · 10-10-2016 11:43PM

Isn't it amazing how all the bull**** is meaningless when the numbers get serious. It's now penetrated the Leavers psyche that the UK has slipped to 6th, come parity and it will be 7th.

FrancieBrady · 10-10-2016 11:57PM

maryishere wrote: »

lol subservience is the begging bowl mentality you subscribe to. The English have a much higher population density than say us or the French, and they wish to limit the increase in that in the future.

Are you as an 'Irish' citizen saying the UK are on the right path?

maryishere · 11-10-2016 12:00AM

catbear wrote: »

Isn't it amazing how all the bull**** is meaningless when the numbers get serious. It's now penetrated the Leavers psyche that the UK has slipped to 6th, come parity and it will be 7th.

And its economy is stlll better than the EU.
The share of world output accounted for by the 28 current members of the EU has fallen from 30% to 16.5% from 1980 to 2016.
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-has-shrunk-percentage-world-economy/

steddyeddy · 11-10-2016 12:01AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you as an 'Irish' citizen saying the UK are on the right path?

He/she has changed nationality about 3 times now.

maryishere · 11-10-2016 12:02AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you as an 'Irish' citizen saying the UK are on the right path?

The EU is certainly not on the right path - unless you are one of the million or so migrants Merrkel have invited in over the past year.;)

steddyeddy · 11-10-2016 12:02AM

maryishere wrote: »

And its economy is stlll better than the EU.
The share of world output accounted for by the 28 current members of the EU has fallen from 30% to 16.5% from 1980 to 2016.
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-has-shrunk-percentage-world-economy/

So the UK's economy is more advanced by the EU?

The Imperial stormtroopers defending Brexit must be living on a different planet.

FrancieBrady · 11-10-2016 12:04AM

maryishere wrote: »

The EU is certainly not on the right path - unless you are one of the million or so migrants Merrkel have invited in over the past year.;)

Could you answer the question?

Billy86 · 11-10-2016 12:06AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

He/she has changed nationality about 3 times now.

Well you know, whatever gets you the most attention on any given day...

maryishere · 11-10-2016 12:09AM

Who knows for certain if the UK are on the right path or not - time will tell. However if this country had the same population density as England, and a net contributer to EC funds, we would have had an IRExit a long time ago.

maryishere · 11-10-2016 12:13AM

Incidentally, there was an expert on the radio today. He said Ireland current business model was based on attracting multinationals by cheap tax rates etc. With Europe going to harmonise Corporation taxes etc in the future, he said our business model will not work then, and for this and other reasons it will be only a matter of time before IRExit.

FrancieBrady · 11-10-2016 12:22AM

maryishere wrote: »

Incidentally, there was an expert on the radio today. He said Ireland current business model was based on attracting multinationals by cheap tax rates etc. With Europe going to harmonise Corporation taxes etc in the future, he said our business model will not work then, and for this and other reasons it will be only a matter of time before IRExit.

Why would we exit? That doesn't automatically follow.

FrancieBrady · 11-10-2016 12:25AM

maryishere wrote: »

Who knows for certain if the UK are on the right path or not - time will tell. However if this country had the same population density as England, and a net contributer to EC funds, we would have had an IRExit a long time ago.

You don't know and yet you are defending them while disparaging every other country inc!using your own?
It would verge on cuteness if it wasn't so sad and clutchy.

SeanW · 11-10-2016 12:25AM

Enzokk wrote: »

That is fine, the EU has set out its stall already. If you want to trade freely you have to accept free movement of labour and goods.

Free Trade Agreements are a common feature in international relations - both between trading blocs, individual nation states and combinations thereof - and they rarely imply anything beyond free trade. NAFTA, the US, Canada and Mexico - no right of free movement. ASEAN in Asia, something similar although I understand the ASEAN group is looking at becoming more like the E.U. They also make trade deals with countries that do not involve free movement of workers.

Its not for the EU to grant a special deal to the UK because the other EU skeptic countries will want the same and once you start to unravel that thread the whole thing will break apart.

I understand the logic, but it's precisely the kind of logic I would expect from a pimp looking to make an example of one of his "hoes" that tries to walk away from him. "Better make an example of the b****". It's the type of mentality that I would expect from the lowest form of degenerate, bottom-feeding scum. From a Euro-extremists position, the idea of nation states co-operating, trading together and being good neighbors, people visiting each others capital cities, etc, but making their own laws and not being subordinate to an anti-democratic monstrosity is probably as close to doomsday as possible. So, yes, you're absolutely right, but not for any sane reason.

I find your comment on the cars interesting, you seem to imply that UK users are buying inferior cars at a premium.

The fact that companies (U.S.) Chrysler, any Italian/French car company and maybe at a stretch VW etc. still exist prove that there are plenty of people with more money than sense. European car companies should be worried that a market of 65 million people may have a 10% tarriff. If that happens, their share of the 65 million is going to be irreparably damaged. Not a total loss to be sure, but if lots of British people switched from Renault, Fiat, Volkswagen etc to Toyota, that's it, many of those people wouldn't go back, ever, even if a Free Trade Agreement were subsequently made.

Surely it will be to their benefit then not to pay so much for crappy cars and drive away with....what exactly? Both Nissan and Toyota have warned that if there are barriers to trade they will re-think their factories and investments in the UK. Seeing that most of the cars assembled in the UK are exported to the EU, if they lose those factories they will have to import cars from the EU for the UK market.

Because both companies are prepared to walk away from a tax-free market of 65 million people that's going to be handed to them on a silver platter? It's possible, I'll grant you, but I wouldn't jump to conclusions.

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

No offence sean but thats a fairly nonsense argument. If you believe that people who drive A4s, 3 series and E classes are at any point in the future going to switch to buying the awful looking (imo) avensis and corolla you are very very wrong

Let me put it this way: do you know anyone who once drove a Corolla or an Avensis, but then decided "feck it, I'll pack in the Corolla and drive a Renault instead?" Or, having done that, didn't regret it in a very short space of time?

Didn't think so.

By the way if you want something a little more high-brow than a Corolla, you can go for Lexus.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

It's a cornerstone that doesn't exist anywhere in the world. It's just the basis for the more complex models that actually do exist.

Keynesian economics is the foundation of all economic theory today, and is the central justification for modern economic structures and institutions such as central banks. "Aggregate demand" is a key part of this.

You're right, it is subjective. Because I could say (quite trithfully) that of the last eight cars that myself and my wife have separately owned, the Japanese ones (three) were the worst. The German ones were (and are) the best.

My experience has been the exact opposite. And I doubt I'm alone in that.

Without the free movement of labour there can't be free movement of goods. That's the cornerstone of the EU and the common market.

It's unique to the EU. Other nations have free trade agreements with each other and some are even in other trading blocs. For example, NAFTA members do not give each other free-movement rights, there is no political union, and each NAFTA member can and do make their own laws and their own free trade agreements with other nations/blocs. No reason Europe can't or shouldn't do the same.

Todd Toddington III · 11-10-2016 12:29AM

The new model lexus looks like a bloody snow plow, awful awful design...and Renault (funny you didnt say Citroën or Peugeot, two beautifully designed brands these days) isn't a marquee name, is it? Plenty of corolla drivers have packed em in for a snazzy German model though

maryishere · 11-10-2016 12:48AM

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

Plenty of corolla drivers have packed em in for a snazzy German model though

Reminds me of David McWilliams exact words:
"The money came from Germany. Old German savers continue to lend money to young Irish consumers. The greatest irony of all this is that there are more BMWs per head in Dublin than in Munich, the home of the car giant.
So the European Monetary Union allows Gunther to lend money to Paddy, so that Paddy can buy the cars Gunther made in the first place. Quite a good deal for Gunther, don’t you think?"
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2004/11/14/truth-about-the-celtic-tiger

Here is the results if a survey, quite interesting:
Used car warranty service WarrantyWise asked more than 750 British motorists about which manufacturers built the most reliable cars: Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz were all in the top 10.

Great news for the British if they have to choose more UK produced cars than German cars in the future for whatever reason.

However, data collected by the company found that all three brands score below average and are considerably less reliable than they are widely perceived to be.
Here are car brands in terms of reliability:
Car manufacturers in order of reliability:

1. Honda

2. Toyota

3. Suzuki

4. Mitsubishi

5. Hyundai

6. Mazda

7. Nissan

8. Subaru

9. Ford

10. Seat

11. Peugeot

12. Smart

13. Mini

14. Volkswagen

15. Fiat

16. Lexus

17. Renault

18. Vauxhall

19. Kia

20.Chevrolet

21. Skoda

22. Land Rover

23. Volvo

24. MG

25. Saab

26. Citroen

27. Mercedes-Benz

28. Audi

29. BMW

30. Ferrari

31. Jeep

32. Chrysler

33. Alfa Romeo

34. Porsche

35. Jaguar

36. Maserati

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/667153/German-cars-reliable-manufacturer-brands-vehicle-buyers-makers-warranty

Smiles35 · 11-10-2016 12:50AM

All this car talk reminds me of terminator 3.

maryishere · 11-10-2016 12:57AM

Its great news for the British if they end up buying less German cars and more Toyotas and Hondas etc (made in UK ) as the German ones according to surveys like the one above are much less reliable.

Junkyard Tom · 11-10-2016 01:00AM

Smiles35 wrote: »

All this car talk reminds me of terminator 3.

Discussing these issues with certain people reminds me of what Kyle Reese said about The Terminator.

It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear! And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!

maryishere · 11-10-2016 01:10AM

SeanW wrote: »

Other nations have free trade agreements with each other and some are even in other trading blocs. For example, NAFTA members do not give each other free-movement rights, there is no political union, and each NAFTA member can and do make their own laws and their own free trade agreements with other nations/blocs. No reason Europe can't or shouldn't do the same.

Well said. If economic issues are handled correctly, the main complication for us here in Ireland will be the border / possible migration through Ireland in to the UK.

We could have our own economic worries big time then, because its only a matter of time before Europe stops our offshore tax haven status for multinationals and harmonises EU tax rates. When that happens our business model will not work.

Capt'n Midnight · 11-10-2016 01:10AM

maryishere wrote: »

Businesses which sell services in foreign jurisdictions usually hire staff in that jurisdiction, as they know the market there best, speak the local language etc.

e are in a situation where the UK may block hiring of foreign staff. So kinda painting themselves into a corner

The UK is the 5th or 6th biggest economy in the world and currently trades services and goods with almost every country in the world - if outside the EC that would continue.

The position depends on how far Sterling falls. Yeah the UK will continue to trade, but what will the balance of payments look like especially if they can't sell as many services into the EU ? Or if the Chinese decide to dump steel or whatever there ?

And the current situation where the UK pays much more in to EU funds than it gets back would not continue.

Go back and read the thread. It's been pointed out the UK gets most of the money back directly, and more again indirectly. Apart from services and one-off exports of Gold the trade between the UK and EU by sector is very evenly balanced

maryishere · 11-10-2016 01:15AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

It's been pointed out the UK gets most of the money back directly, and more again indirectly. Apart from services and one-off exports of Gold the trade between the UK and EU by sector is very evenly balanced

Go back and read the thread. Since the seventies the UK and Germany have been the 2 biggest net contributers to the EEC / EC / EU. When Albert Reynolds came back from Europe with extra billions for example, where do you think it - or the money we got for so many EU projects, motorways, roads, education, farmers etc - came from?

maryishere · 11-10-2016 01:18AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The position depends on how far Sterling falls. Yeah the UK will continue to trade, but what will the balance of payments look like especially if they can't sell as many services into the EU ? Or if the Chinese decide to dump steel or whatever there ?

Sterling was at 90c before, its nothing new. And as said before its economy is stlll better than the EU.
Given we are shackled to the failed entity known as the EU, you would be better off worrying about it. The share of world output accounted for by the 28 current members of the EU has fallen from 30% to 16.5% from 1980 to 2016.
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-has-s...world-economy/

Enzokk · 11-10-2016 01:58AM

SeanW wrote: »

Free Trade Agreements are a common feature in international relations - both between trading blocs, individual nation states and combinations thereof - and they rarely imply anything beyond free trade. NAFTA, the US, Canada and Mexico - no right of free movement. ASEAN in Asia, something similar although I understand the ASEAN group is looking at becoming more like the E.U. They also make trade deals with countries that do not involve free movement of workers.

You are correct, there are many free trade agreements out there. But how many are there with the EU where a country gets full access without tariffs to the market and where it doesn't have to provide free movement of goods and labour? Now granted trade agreements are dependent on a variety of factors, of which one is location of the countries involved, so you are not likely to see a free movement requirement for the EU and Australia. But the fact that the UK is surrounded by the EU and the EU insists on access to the single market being tied to the freedom of movement of other countries not in the EU, makes me wonder why we are discussing this point.

SeanW wrote: »

I understand the logic, but it's precisely the kind of logic I would expect from a pimp looking to make an example of one of his "hoes" that tries to walk away from him. "Better make an example of the b****". It's the type of mentality that I would expect from the lowest form of degenerate, bottom-feeding scum. From a Euro-extremists position, the idea of nation states co-operating, trading together and being good neighbors, people visiting each others capital cities, etc, but making their own laws and not being subordinate to an anti-democratic monstrosity is probably as close to doomsday as possible. So, yes, you're absolutely right, but not for any sane reason.

No-one forced the UK to join the EU, no-one is forcing it to stay either. So while your analogy is interesting, it has nothing to do with the current situation. Its more like rich people at a exclusive club. At the moment one member isn't happy with the new members being allowed into the club and wants to leave. They do still however want to use the facilities but don't really want to pay the fees for it.

SeanW wrote: »

The fact that companies (U.S.) Chrysler, any Italian/French car company and maybe at a stretch VW etc. still exist prove that there are plenty of people with more money than sense. European car companies should be worried that a market of 65 million people may have a 10% tarriff. If that happens, their share of the 65 million is going to be irreparably damaged. Not a total loss to be sure, but if lots of British people switched from Renault, Fiat, Volkswagen etc to Toyota, that's it, many of those people wouldn't go back, ever, even if a Free Trade Agreement were subsequently made.

Because both companies are prepared to walk away from a tax-free market of 65 million people that's going to be handed to them on a silver platter? It's possible, I'll grant you, but I wouldn't jump to conclusions.

In your opinion only though. I find it interesting as well that you think a market of 65 million is the be all for these companies. They will have to make a choice if the UK decides on a hard brexit. They will have to decide whether the market of 65 million people is more important than the market of 435 million people.

This is not to say that the UK isn't an important trading partner. They are, however I find the optimism that the EU will need to bow down to the UK because they are the UK a little absurd. The deal will be the same as for Norway or Switzerland. If they want access to the market they will have to give allowances. This isn't a complicated scenario, it is what it is.

Peregrinus · 11-10-2016 02:17AM

maryishere wrote: »

Sterling was at 90c before, its nothing new. And as said before its economy is stlll better than the EU.
Given we are shackled to the failed entity known as the EU, you would be better off worrying about it. The share of world output accounted for by the 28 current members of the EU has fallen from 30% to 16.5% from 1980 to 2016.
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-has-s...world-economy/

When I follow that link I get a message which says "We're sorry, this page does not appear to exist." Which is something of a metaphor for the entire Brexit campaign, and its relationship to actual evidence.

It's true that the share of world output accounted for by the current members of the EU had declined since 1980. A few moments' thought (a struggle for most Brexiters, I grant you, but do try) will show that this isn't due to declining out put in the EU over that time, but to rising output in developing economies, most notably China. Over the same period all OECD countries have experience a decline in their share of world output, in contrast with, e.g., China (up from 2.2% to 17.9%) and India (up from 2.6% to 6.4%).

If Brexiters think that the UK is going to avoid this trend by withdrawing from the EU, they are wrong.

A Little Pony · 11-10-2016 07:18AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

maryishere wrote: »

Sterling was at 90c before, its nothing new. And as said before its economy is stlll better than the EU.
Given we are shackled to the failed entity known as the EU, you would be better off worrying about it. The share of world output accounted for by the 28 current members of the EU has fallen from 30% to 16.5% from 1980 to 2016.
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-has-s...world-economy/

When I follow that link I get a message which says "We're sorry, this page does not appear to exist." Which is something of a metaphor for the entire Brexit campaign, and its relationship to actual evidence.

It's true that the share of world output accounted for by the current members of the EU had declined since 1980. A few moments' thought (a struggle for most Brexiters, I grant you, but do try) will show that this isn't due to declining out put in the EU over that time, but to rising output in developing economies, most notably China. Over the same period all OECD countries have experience a decline in their share of world output, in contrast with, e.g., China (up from 2.2% to 17.9%) and India (up from 2.6% to 6.4%).

If Brexiters think that the UK is going to avoid this trend by withdrawing from the EU, they are wrong.

Most people who voted out don't actually care. People voted for economic or immigration reasons and a few other reasons.

Peregrinus · 11-10-2016 07:25AM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Most people who voted out don't actually care. People voted for economic or immigration reasons and a few other reasons.

I realise that. But when you say that people voted "for economic reasons" you mean, don't you, that they thought that the UK would be better off, economically, outside the EU? Which is pretty much what maryishere is trying to say, by pointing out that the EU share of global output has been declining. The implication is that the EU is on a bad economic trajectory, and that if the UK leaves the EU it can escape that.

The implication is wrong, of course, for the reasons already pointed out - the UK's departure from the EU will do nothing to stop the rise of China, Brazil, India, etc. Thus, those who are voting for Brexit out of a belief that it will improve the UK's economic position are - to my mind - misguided. At any rate, the economic argument which maryishere advances does not stand up to examination.

First Up · 11-10-2016 07:31AM

maryishere wrote:

Incidentally, there was an expert on the radio today. He said Ireland current business model was based on attracting multinationals by cheap tax rates etc. With Europe going to harmonise Corporation taxes etc in the future, he said our business model will not work then, and for this and other reasons it will be only a matter of time before IRExit.

Not much of an expert if that is what he said.

Fratton Fred · 11-10-2016 07:36AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

I realise that. But when you say that people voted "for economic reasons" you mean, don't you, that they thought that the UK would be better off, economically, outside the EU? Which is pretty much what maryishere is trying to say, by pointing out that the EU share of global output has been declining. The implication is that the EU is on a bad economic trajectory, and that if the UK leaves the EU it can escape that.

My understanding is that a lot of the leave votes were based on wage deflation caused by endless amounts of cheap labour, rather than the belief the country was better off making its own trade deals.

UK Votes to leave EU

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