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Dublin Marathon 2016 - Mentored Novices Thread

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Comments

  • #4322
    nop98
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭nop98


    Those of you who have read TailGunner's Berlin marathon report can move onto the next piece of homework:
    kin9pin wrote: »
    http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/4-steps-to-your-perfect-marathon-taper

    This is excellent.


  • #4323
    aceygray
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 168 ✭✭aceygray


    nop98 wrote: »
    Hey Aceygray - any update on your knee? Are you planning any mileage this week?

    Any other patients out there? From my notes, it seems most are back in full training mode?

    Hi Nop - I'm not back on the road yet. There's still a very slight niggle in my knee when I make certain movements (eg walking down stairs, pushing the clutch when driving). I don't want to risk exacerbating it, so I'll rest another few days, and then see.

    I think at this stage I'll be lucky to start. If I do, I will just toddle around at an easy pace, and hopefully do better next year.


  • #4324
    joesoap5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 250 ✭✭joesoap5


    Hi Nope, I was interested in your replies to some reports. I know for the 3/4 marathon the pacers are going out 30 secs plus marathon pace. Would you recommend joining at this pace or sticking to LSR pace?

    Also interested in knowing what the response is about the user who is doing his LSR at marathon pace.
    I still haven't worked out mine yet as I did 20 last week instead of half marathon.
    The reason I ask is because in the last marathon I ran, my LSR time became my marathon time. It wasn't on purpose though.


  • #4325
    PauloMN
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    nop98 wrote: »
    fatherted1969 - Great job on your LSR, but it sounds like you're running this at your planned marathon pace? :eek: It's recommended to run it typically around 90 seconds/mile slower. Are you thinking of getting new runners? If you do - make sure to do it a.s.a.p. so you can still get them properly broken in before the big day. It won't be a bad idea to be alternating runnners, anyway. Good luck.

    Can I ask about the theory behind the 90 sec/min slower pace Nop? I've seen this a lot, and I wonder about the theory. My plan has LSRs alternating between MP and +30 seconds, so some of the long run is done at MP and sections are dropped down to MP +30 seconds. 90 seconds seems like a really big difference, and I wonder how I'd be able to run at say 9 min/mile if I'd trained at 10:30min pace?

    I get the "total time on feet" logic, but on the day you'd need to run 4 or 5 miles more than the longest LSR AND also run quite a bit faster. Does this really work for people?


  • #4326
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,359 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Its happened again. :( Twice now a groin injury has stopped me from making the DCM start line and now, yet again, I have a problem with my groin.

    I don't think its too serious but it has happened at the worst possible time, any other time of year I would probably rest it for a week and be grand, but I’m following HH1 and this was supposed to be perhaps the most important week in the plan with the 20 mile LSR due on Saturday.

    I have a physio appointment tonight but opinions on how to approach this would be welcome. Assuming I rest for a week and the groin clears up, and assuming the 20 mile LSR needs to be done, how would you approach the final 3 weeks?


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  • #4327
    nop98
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭nop98


    Myles posted this a good few months back:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=99741843#post99741843

    My layman's terms explanation is that for first-time marathoners, it's the time on feet you have to prepare for, not necessarily the aerobic fitness. This can only be achieved by many, many, many slow and patient miles. But spending so much time on your feet means you have to be slow, in order to recover, in order to run again.

    The most basic "just get you around on the day itself"-plan only has one pace: easy/slow. The longer runs on these type of plan will leave you tired enough just because it's the longest you have ever run, ever.

    The more experienced you get, the more you want to set and beat certain targets, the more speed-work you'll have to build in. Some of these runs are pretty hardcore workouts and therefore not recommended for novice runners.

    The question "will I be able to do it on the day" comes up all the time, and there is only one answer: "trust the plan". There are no guarantees, but by painting layer upon layer of slow miles you will have built an incredible base that will carry you further than before. Not only on marathon day you will be able to push yourself further, but subsequently, even tho you might not feel it, you'll smash your 5/10k times. Last year, DG even when as far as 'promising' that.

    The big difference with your 20M long run this weekend, and your 26.2M long run on DCM-day is that you have a week's training ahead of you following the former, and several weeks rest following the latter. In other words, you are "allowed" to go much, much deeper on race-day, and the added adrenaline from the crowds and fellow runners provide a non insignificant boost. On the other hand, you can't afford to run that hard week-in, week-out during training, since you simply won't recover in time for the next set of runs, get injured, get fed-up, and give up.

    Does it really work for people? It did for most of us last year. It's no guarantee - but it's the tried and tested method.

    Another way to put is that you won't run a marathon just to be able to run your first marathon. You probably did you first half marathon as your longest ever run to date. This is the same idea.

    FBOT, Murph_D, others, - any more "scientific" views on the matter?


  • #4328
    Pomplamousse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Pomplamousse


    nop98 wrote: »
    Pomplamousse - Well done on your second 20M run - but ouch, that sounds like 5 hard miles at the end of your run. How are is your leg today - are you considering a massage / rub-down this week? And are you generally feeling better? Are you in the habit of taking your resting heartrate? Just want to make sure there's nothing suspicious going on.

    Thanks nop. Legs are still a bit achey but nothing too bad. Glad of today's rest day though. Hopefully they're ok when I try run on them again tomorrow. I have been thinking lately that I should actually go for a professional massage so I'll book one for either this week or next week.

    Feeling back to normal generally after last week's sickness. I don't take my resting heart rate everyday but a few times a week and it's usually just under 60bpm. It was up to nearly 75bpm on the day I got sick last week but it's been back to normal since the end of last week.

    I've never had an amazing immune system but I've been sick so much in the past few months, a lot more than usual, that I'm wondering if all the running could be a factor. I was reading something last week about intense training reducing the effectiveness of your immune system, particularly after long runs.

    Anyway, only 4 weeks to go now at least, fingers crossed we all make it to the start line in one piece!


  • #4329
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    nop98 wrote: »
    Maximus Alexander, well done too. Did it go well?

    Yep, it went great thanks! I was feeling pretty tired setting off, but I still felt more comfortable towards the end (and afterwards!) than I had on previous 19-20 milers so I was very happy.


  • #4330
    Murph_D
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,916 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    nop98 wrote: »
    FBOT, Murph_D, others, - any more "scientific" views on the matter?

    Well I think Myles' post that you linked to above more than covers it.

    Here's what Pfitzinger and Douglas have to say on the issue in Advanced Marathoning (note - novices are not advanced marathoners, so not all of this necessarily applies, but the bit about 10-20% slower than MP certainly does):

    ________________


    Your ability to store glycogen and use fat for fuel tends to improve with the same types of training. Pure endurance training stimulates these adaptations and increases the capillarization of your muscles. For marathoners, the primary type of training to stimulate these adaptations is runs of 90 minutes or longer. Your total training volume, however, also contributes. ...

    Long runs are the bread and butter of marathoners. For all marathoners, including the elite, the marathon distance is a formidable challenge. To prepare to race 26.2 miles (42.2 km) at a strong pace, train your body and mind to handle the distance by doing long runs at a reasonable pace.

    A long run also provides psychological benefits. By running long, you simulate what your legs and body will go through in the marathon. When your hamstrings tighten 23 miles (37 km) into the race, for example, it helps to have experienced a similar feeling in training - you'll know you can shorten your stride a few inches, concentrate on maintaining your leg turnover, and keep going. More generally, you'll have experienced overcoming the sometimes overwhelming desire to do anything but continue to run.

    During your long runs, you encounter many of the experiences - good and bad - that await you in the marathon. No scientific evidence will tell you the best distance for your long runs as you train. However, a clear trade-off exists between running far enough to stimulate physiological adaptations and remaining uninjured. If you regularly do runs longer than 24 miles (39 km), you'll become strong but slow because you won't be able to run your other hard workouts at as high a level of quality. You'll also increase your risk of injury because when your muscles are very fatigued, they lose their ability to absorb impact forces, greatly increasing your risk of muscle strain or tendinitis.

    Experience suggests that steadily building your long runs to 21 or 22 miles (34 or 35 km) will maximize your chances of reaching the marathon in top shape while remaining healthy. ...

    Long runs shouldn't be slow jogs during which you just accumulate time on your feet. The appropriate pace for a specific long run depends on the purpose of that run within your training program. The most beneficial intensity range for most of your long runs is 10 to 20 percent slower than your goal marathon race pace. ... If you use a heart monitor, your long-run pace should be roughly in the range of 74 to 84 percent of maximal heart rate or 65 to 78 percent of your heart rate reserve. This will ensure that you' re running with a similar posture and are using similar muscle patterns as when you run at marathon pace.

    If you do long runs much slower than this, you risk being unprepared for the marathon. Slow long runs reinforce poor running style and do a poor job of simulating the demands of the marathon. If you run long runs too fast, of course, you risk leaving your marathon performance out on your training loops because you'll be too tired for your other important training sessions. ...

    The first few miles of your long runs can be done slowly, but by 5 miles (8 km) into your long run, your pace should be no more than 20 percent slower than marathon race pace. Gradually increase your pace until you're running approximately 10 percent slower than marathon race pace during the last 5 miles (8 km) of your long runs. In terms of heart rate, run the first few miles at the low end of the recommended intensity range, and gradually increase your effort until you reach the high end of the range during the last 5 miles (8 km) . This makes for an excellent workout and provides a strong stimulus for physiological adaptations. These workouts are difficult enough that you should schedule a recovery day the day before and 1 or 2 days after your long runs.

    If you do long runs in this intensity range, a 22-mile (35 km) run will take approximately the same amount of time as your marathon. By running for the length of time you hope to run the marathon, you also provide psychological reinforcement that you can run at a steady pace for that amount of time.


  • #4331
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    So for a sub 4 hour marathon pace of 9:09, a long run at around 10:10 pace is both 90% of marathon pace and marathon pace + 60 seconds. Checks out :)


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  • #4332
    robinwing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 507 ✭✭✭robinwing


    nop98 wrote: »
    Welcome, robinwing - and thank you for your sound advice. That's a fine PB you have from 1984 - and an equally fine goal for this year. The very best of luck to you on day itself - do stay around and let us know how your preparation is going.

    By the way (not directed to you at all - more a general observation), there really is no shame in walking for little parts, during the marathon. E.g. at the waterstops, when you see friends / family in the crowd, if you just want a little break. Each to their own, but "no walking" isn't necessarily an important goal.

    When this was being discussed last year, it was mentioned that there are plenty of examples of sub-3 hours being achieved with walking stops, and plus-5 hours without.

    You are 100% correct of course NOP98 , and it would be very foolish and even dangerous not to walk or even stop for a bit of a rest when your body is telling you to do so. Drink in early miles, its too late when you feel thirsty and dehydrated later on . Unfortunately I am like an old clapped out diesel engine with bad compression that is difficult to restart again when its hot . Its counterproductive to be dragging yourself along when exhausted , a little rest or walk will refresh and give you a faster marathon time overall


  • #4333
    Murph_D
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,916 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    I think the whole Why Run Slow question boils down to this:

    1. If you don't run slow, you won't gain the required muscular and other endurance adaptations.
    2. If you run too fast, you'll never develop the ability to metabolise body fat.
    3. If 1 and/or 2 applies, you'll be walking/limping the last 6-10 miles, probably in a world of pain.

    Simple enough. :)


  • #4334
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    nop98 wrote: »
    When this was being discussed last year, it was mentioned that there are plenty of examples of sub-3 hours being achieved with walking stops, and plus-5 hours without.

    there's a guy in our club who's famous/notorious for missing out on a sub-3 in Dublin one year, because he stopped to greet his family when they started roaring at him close to the finish line.


  • #4335
    FBOT01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭FBOT01


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    So for a sub 4 hour marathon pace of 9:09, a long run at around 10:10 pace is both 90% of marathon pace and marathon pace + 60 seconds. Checks out :)

    Fancy that ;)

    But just to make life even easier for you there is the option of pushing this out by another 30 seconds or up to MP+20% while still giving you similar benefits and a potentially shorter recovery time.


  • #4336
    FBOT01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭FBOT01


    robinwing wrote: »
    You are 100% correct of course NOP98 , and it would be very foolish and even dangerous not to walk or even stop for a bit of a rest when your body is telling you to do so. Drink in early miles, its too late when you feel thirsty and dehydrated later on . Unfortunately I am like an old clapped out diesel engine with bad compression that is difficult to restart again when its hot . Its counterproductive to be dragging yourself along when exhausted , a little rest or walk will refresh and give you a faster marathon time overall

    I am not disagreeing with this but instead highlighting that being thirsty and dehydrated are two different things. In general, my understanding is that if you drink when you are thirsty you will enhance your chances of avoiding dehydration. Drinking too much to try to stave off dehydration when you are in fact not even thirsty can cause its own set of issues that can actually be more damaging than dehydration itself..........so I think the best advise is to be sensible and learn the signals during training so you drink when you need to and don't over do it.


  • #4337
    ligerdub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,585 ✭✭✭ligerdub


    I've done all my training on my own (originally I took up exercise purely to lose weight) for just over two years now.
    I started with 5km runs 4 times a week, running at 12km per hour. Each run the same length, but gradually getting faster over time to about 13.4 km per hour top speed. Gradually then the distance increased and I repeated the same process. My standard run now is 10 miles in about 72 minutes. I've also been doing a longer run once every two weeks or so. These can reach up to about 30km, and I can usually sustain the same pace as the 10 mile run for the duration oddly enough. Basically every run now is at the same speed, with little variation in distance.

    I run about 60km per week.

    A couple of questions.

    In order to increase my ability to run faster for longer should I:

    1. Incorporate a day of sprints? Multiples of flat-out running for specific time intervals?
    2. Slow down my 10 mile runs to say 12km per hour?
    3. Vary my race speeds and distances?

    Thanks a mill for any advice.

    I'm thinking this for so for the longer term. Probably too close to the marathon to vary my patterns I'd say. I'm hoping the amount I'm doing will put me in good stead for the day.


  • #4338
    ligerdub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,585 ✭✭✭ligerdub


    FBOT01 wrote: »
    I am not disagreeing with this but instead highlighting that being thirsty and dehydrated are two different things. In general, my understanding is that if you drink when you are thirsty you will enhance your chance of avoiding dehydration. Drinking too much to try to stave off dehydration when you are in fact not even thirsty can cause it own set of issue that can actually be more damaging than dehydration itself..........so I think the best advise is to be sensible and learn the signals during training so you drink when you need to and don't over do it.

    I find that I take a couple of sips every 10 minutes works a treat (so long as you maintain discipline in doing so).


  • #4339
    The Muppet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,009 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    nop98 wrote: »
    tony1980 - glad to have you back! Glad to have you back running, too! How has your weekly mileage been over the past few weeks? What are you planning for the next few weeks? I hope real-life is sorting itself out for you.

    Thank you TM for the motivational lecture - maybe you can share some of it for all of us? :)

    ?

    It was nothin deep nor inspirational just a few words of encouragement that we all get on this forum when the wheels come off. Tony and myself have been exchanging pms since he first got injured so from my own past experience I felt I knew where he was in his head and tried to help.


  • #4340
    tailgunner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,911 ✭✭✭tailgunner


    PauloMN wrote: »
    Can I ask about the theory behind the 90 sec/min slower pace Nop? I've seen this a lot, and I wonder about the theory. My plan has LSRs alternating between MP and +30 seconds, so some of the long run is done at MP and sections are dropped down to MP +30 seconds. 90 seconds seems like a really big difference, and I wonder how I'd be able to run at say 9 min/mile if I'd trained at 10:30min pace?

    I get the "total time on feet" logic, but on the day you'd need to run 4 or 5 miles more than the longest LSR AND also run quite a bit faster. Does this really work for people?

    Purely anecdotal, but looking through my training for Berlin, the vast majority of my easy runs were between 10:00/mi and 10:30/mi pace. Admittedly, my long runs were a little quicker on occasion - the fastest was 9:43/mi, but I was absolutely leathered after it.

    My average pace for Berlin was 9:01/mi, and I felt pretty comfortable for most of it. I don't know what sort of voodoo magic happens during the taper and out there on the marathon course, but it works.
    robinwing wrote: »
    You are 100% correct of course NOP98 , and it would be very foolish and even dangerous not to walk or even stop for a bit of a rest when your body is telling you to do so. Drink in early miles, its too late when you feel thirsty and dehydrated later on . Unfortunately I am like an old clapped out diesel engine with bad compression that is difficult to restart again when its hot . Its counterproductive to be dragging yourself along when exhausted , a little rest or walk will refresh and give you a faster marathon time overall

    I'm not sure I agree with drinking a lot of water in the early miles. It's important to keep hydrated of course, but it's unlikely to be warm in Dublin at the end of October, so I wouldn't overdo it.


  • #4341
    kin9pin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭kin9pin


    nop98 wrote: »
    kin9pin Glad to hear you're back - careful with that shin now. I am guessing you'll probably feel some niggles there towards the end of every long run. Your plan for next week looks good, the mid-week runs should be doable but dial back the pace, it will make a big difference not inflaming the vulnerable spot and won't damage your fitness/prep at all. For the long run, it would be great to get 18M under the belt but a sensible approach (so you can bail if needed) is of course the right thing to do. Maybe run in Phoenix Park with A Neurotic?

    Thanks nop. Phoenix Park is out as I have to run really early on Saturday and I'm not as brave as WW! I'll try to drop the pace back closer to 10:30, but I notice there is 5m at PMP on Wednesday. Should I try that if I'm feeling good or take the cautious route?
    This time in 4 weeks I'll be eating pizza!


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  • #4342
    FBOT01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭FBOT01


    PauloMN wrote: »
    Can I ask about the theory behind the 90 sec/min slower pace Nop? I've seen this a lot, and I wonder about the theory. My plan has LSRs alternating between MP and +30 seconds, so some of the long run is done at MP and sections are dropped down to MP +30 seconds. 90 seconds seems like a really big difference, and I wonder how I'd be able to run at say 9 min/mile if I'd trained at 10:30min pace?

    I get the "total time on feet" logic, but on the day you'd need to run 4 or 5 miles more than the longest LSR AND also run quite a bit faster. Does this really work for people?

    Don't just look at each run in isolation. You need to acknowledge the volume of training that you are doing to build the aerobic base to cover the distant on the big day. All this volume has a purpose in laying the foundation that when combined with the rest and recovery achieved during taper time gives you the capacity to go that extra mile. We've all done it and you will too if you "trust in training".

    Unfortunately there are many examples each year of people who think they know better and risk it all unnecessarily to be the exception to the rule but end up becoming a practical example for use in discussions like this..........and those who are lucky enough to end up being exceptions are just that :)


  • #4343
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    tailgunner wrote: »
    but it's unlikely to be warm in Dublin at the end of October, so I wouldn't overdo it.


    There's probably a dozen people typing this right now: Nooooooooo.

    Yes, it is the end of October, but BE WARNED. I have just four numbers for you.

    2.0.1.4

    Ask anyone about DCM two years ago. It was the new route, and it was unseasonably warm, up to about 19℃. Utter, utter carnage.

    It can and does get very warm on that weekend, on a mysteriously regular basis. So take nothing for granted.


  • #4344
    spaceylou
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭spaceylou


    davedanon wrote: »
    There's probably a dozen people typing this right now: Nooooooooo.

    Yes, it is the end of October, but BE WARNED. I have just four numbers for you.

    2.0.1.4

    Ask anyone about DCM two years ago. It was the new route, and it was unseasonably warm, up to about 19℃. Utter, utter carnage.

    It can and does get very warm on that weekend, on a mysteriously regular basis. So take nothing for granted.

    Am I the only one that would love it to be warm? I dread the thoughts of waking up on 30 Oct to weather like we had for FD10 or even the half.


  • #4345
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    spaceylou wrote: »
    Am I the only one that would love it to be warm? I dread the thoughts of waking up on 30 Oct to weather like we had for FD10 or even the half.

    I'd be in dreamland if we had the DHM weather. Perfection in my eyes! A little more drizzle and a little less breeze would be even better.


  • #4346
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    the colder the better for me. Put on an old top at the start for chucking away, if the hands are cold, a pair of old socks. simples.


  • #4347
    paddydriver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭paddydriver


    nop98 wrote: »
    paddydriver - did you push kin9pin too hard? Careful on the poor lad's shin? :D just joking. Good job, lads. Any particular wisdom from the IR magazine you care to share with all?

    Hey Nop.. we had a good run and great chat. Agreed we would go at circa 10min pace and think we stuck to that well. Weather was terrible for much of the run. Overall the route is fairly flat, there are indeed a few climbs but nothing too bad. I'm happy we are coming down the Upr Glen Rd in PP as I don't recall fondly going up it at end of HM..:pac:

    I've asked wife to read Irish Runner too.. just so she get's a good understanding of it. I got another interesting nugget too from Hal Higdon on FB and he says of all the new inventions etc since he started running.. the one he thinks would have most benefitted him are Energy Gel's and their ability to allow you carry around all the primary nutritions in such a small package. He strongly recommends taking plenty and often during the marathon.

    Hard to fully summarise full mag but it does give some great info on pacing and enduring you get your pace right etc. This coupled with tailgunner's log and also the link posted by yourself re the taper.. all make worthwhile reading.


  • #4348
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    davedanon wrote: »
    the colder the better for me. Put on an old top at the start for chucking away, if the hands are cold, a pair of old socks. simples.

    That's it, it's easy to warm yourself up if it's too cold but you can do little to cool yourself down if it's too warm.


  • #4349
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    That's it, it's easy to warm yourself up if it's too cold but you can do little to cool yourself down if it's too warm.

    Exactly.


  • #4350
    nop98
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭nop98


    2 more LSRs to report on:

    spaceylou - Well done, another with 20M in the bank. Not at all a surprise that you're tired after that, keep the feet up today. You don't have to worry about getting lost on the day itself! The mileage will come down slowly now, so well done.

    boydkev - 15M is not too shabby as LSR distance, that Cobh-Cork race is on my bucketlist but I never seem to make it. 8.10/8.20 seems way too fast though (given the discussion raging above), what is your target for the day?


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  • #4351
    kin9pin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭kin9pin


    davedanon wrote: »
    the colder the better for me. Put on an old top at the start for chucking away, if the hands are cold, a pair of old socks. simples.

    The weather from Clontarf, Nov 2015, would be great. Sunny, very little breeze and about 2 degrees :)


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