2016 U.S. Presidential Race Megathread Mark 2.

bajer101 · 02-10-2016 07:04PM

Trump goes off script at Pennsylvanian rally. He has to be purposely trying to throw the election at this stage.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/02/as-news-of-trumps-taxes-broke-he-goes-off-script-at-a-rally-in-pennsylvania/#

Nody · 02-10-2016 07:25PM

bajer101 wrote: »

Trump goes off script at Pennsylvanian rally. He has to be purposely trying to throw the election at this stage.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/02/as-news-of-trumps-taxes-broke-he-goes-off-script-at-a-rally-in-pennsylvania/#

No he simply is used to everyone saying yes to what ever he proposes; heck at that rally he could have said he'd launch a spaceship to Mars during his presidency and that he'd make Kim Il Jung wear a pink dress and they would not only cheer him on but believe him as well which makes him think he's doing it right (positive reinforcement of behavior). The simple fact is all he's showing is his lack of self control and the fact he'd would send out status updates on twitter from every meeting "With @PutinRussia and making dealz!"

Overheal · 02-10-2016 07:32PM

I worry under trump how many countries will try to push his buttons. Probably keeps the admirals up at night just thinking about it.

Billy86 · 02-10-2016 07:43PM

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Trump has made mistakes.
No one is voting for the Trump of 20 years ago, or the Clinton of 20 years ago.
Today's Trump is better than Clinton. As President Trump will be advised heavily , he would not control things he has no knowledge of . He would be a strong figure head at most. Obama is but a puppet, he has done nothing for the black vote that got him elected. That is his legacy, he has being a slave to congress

Trump has already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is entirely unable to follow advise. Completely and utterly. His campaign have basically been begging him to shut the f*ck up for a while now, and instead he carries on digging his own grave at 3am on Twitter.

You'll need to find another way to try justifying why he would be better. Especially since you then turn around and say Obama doing what you incorrectly think makes Trump better is what makes him worse.

Trump fans seem to really be struggling this week.

oik · 02-10-2016 08:05PM

Risks of a Trump presidency:

Temperament: Trump's deposition video proves beyond a doubt that he can be disciplined, calm and affable behind closed doors, which is where it really matters. I would link it but not enough posts.

Riots. Bound to happen but will subside

Health. 70 years old, can't rule it out, but not a serious risk to the country.

Inexperienced. He was inexperienced when he entered the real estate business, and the golf business and the casino business(!) and reality TV and basically everything he's done. He has achieved far more success than failures. If there was anyone who could enter a new field without experience and succeed it would be Trump. Besides, there really is no job that prepares you for the presidency. Not even governor or senator. Secretary of state is probably the closest you get.

Self inflicted economic woes:
Trump's tax cuts are actually close to those recommended by the Simpson Bowles report which Obama ignored but Bill Clinton said would cause 1.6 trillion additional investment by US headquartered companies. That's a Clinton endorsement of Trump's tax plan. The report predicted that it would broaden the tax base and actually increase revenues.

That's not what we're being told now by the lying media, but who still believes them? I'll take a bipartisan report and a successful president's recommendation over some unpaid intern at the Washington Post.

Risks of a HIllary presidency:

War: Exponentially higher chance of a foreign intervention. She supported every foreign intervention since she entered politics.

Foreign influence: Charles Krauthammer's article in the National Review outlines how foreign donors launder money through Canada into the Clinton Foundation and use it to buy influence. There's nothing to stop that from continuing when she is president.

Health: Hillary's health is a bigger concern than Trump's.

Immigration:
Her laxed immigration policy could lead to an increase in terrorist attacks

Lack of transparency:
Obama has been less transparent than most but Hillary Clinton takes the cake when it comes to a lack of transparency.

Christy42 · 02-10-2016 08:14PM

oik wrote: »

Risks of a Trump presidency:

Temperament: Trump's deposition video proves beyond a doubt that he can be disciplined, calm and affable behind closed doors, which is where it really matters. I would link it but not enough posts.

Riots. Bound to happen but will subside

Health. 70 years old, can't rule it out, but not a serious risk to the country.

Inexperienced. He was inexperienced when he entered the real estate business, and the golf business and the casino business(!) and reality TV and basically everything he's done. He has achieved far more success than failures. If there was anyone who could enter a new field without experience and succeed it would be Trump. Besides, there really is no job that prepares you for the presidency. Not even governor or senator. Secretary of state is probably the closest you get.

Self inflicted economic woes:
Trump's tax cuts are actually close to those recommended by the Simpson Bowles report which Obama ignored but Bill Clinton said would cause 1.6 trillion additional investment by US headquartered companies. That's a Clinton endorsement of Trump's tax plan. The report predicted that it would broaden the tax base and actually increase revenues.

That's not what we're being told now by the lying media, but who still believes them? I'll take a bipartisan report and a successful president's recommendation over some unpaid intern at the Washington Post.

Risks of a HIllary presidency:

War: Exponentially higher chance of a foreign intervention. She supported every foreign intervention since she entered politics.

Foreign influence: Charles Krauthammer's article in the National Review outlines how foreign donors launder money through Canada into the Clinton Foundation and use it to buy influence. There's nothing to stop that from continuing when she is president.

Health: Hillary's health is a bigger concern than Trump's.

Immigration:
Her laxed immigration policy could lead to an increase in terrorist attacks

Lack of transparency:
Obama has been less transparent than most but Hillary Clinton takes the cake when it comes to a lack of transparency.

And Gandalf came to save the day.

You just made up a load of stuff. War is more likely with Trump. He has said do onultiple occasions. The debate shows he has no temperament for the job and goes to pieces whenever anyone mentions the size of his bank balance.
Trump's immigration policy will serve as a rallying call for terrorists without slowing down immigration.

Trump's health is of far more concern. Well maybe less as Pence would be a terrible but better president than Trump. Hillary has shown during the 60 minute debate that the people crying that she is dying are about as sane as those who think Obama was born in Kenya and that global warning is a hoax by the Chinese.

20Cent · 02-10-2016 08:21PM

oik wrote: »

Risks of a Trump presidency:

Temperament: Trump's deposition video proves beyond a doubt that he can be disciplined, calm and affable behind closed doors, which is where it really matters. I would link it but not enough posts.

Riots. Bound to happen but will subside

Health. 70 years old, can't rule it out, but not a serious risk to the country.

Inexperienced. He was inexperienced when he entered the real estate business, and the golf business and the casino business(!) and reality TV and basically everything he's done. He has achieved far more success than failures. If there was anyone who could enter a new field without experience and succeed it would be Trump. Besides, there really is no job that prepares you for the presidency. Not even governor or senator. Secretary of state is probably the closest you get.

Self inflicted economic woes:
Trump's tax cuts are actually close to those recommended by the Simpson Bowles report which Obama ignored but Bill Clinton said would cause 1.6 trillion additional investment by US headquartered companies. That's a Clinton endorsement of Trump's tax plan. The report predicted that it would broaden the tax base and actually increase revenues.

That's not what we're being told now by the lying media, but who still believes them? I'll take a bipartisan report and a successful president's recommendation over some unpaid intern at the Washington Post.

Risks of a HIllary presidency:

War: Exponentially higher chance of a foreign intervention. She supported every foreign intervention since she entered politics.

Foreign influence: Charles Krauthammer's article in the National Review outlines how foreign donors launder money through Canada into the Clinton Foundation and use it to buy influence. There's nothing to stop that from continuing when she is president.

Health: Hillary's health is a bigger concern than Trump's.

Immigration:
Her laxed immigration policy could lead to an increase in terrorist attacks

Lack of transparency:
Obama has been less transparent than most but Hillary Clinton takes the cake when it comes to a lack of transparency.

How do you know he's a successful businessman?

oik · 02-10-2016 08:24PM

And Gandalf came to save the day.

You just made up a load of stuff. War is more likely with Trump. He has said do onultiple occasions. The debate shows he has no temperament for the job and goes to pieces whenever anyone mentions the size of his bank balance.
Trump's immigration policy will serve as a rallying call for terrorists without slowing down immigration.

Trump's health is of far more concern. Well maybe less as Pence would be a terrible but better president than Trump. Hillary has shown during the 60 minute debate that the people crying that she is dying are about as sane as those who think Obama was born in Kenya and that global warning is a hoax by the Chinese.

War is more likely with Trump:
Based on what? Trump is the less hawkish of the two by any measure except military spending which arguable is more likely to prevent war than cause it.

The debate shows he has no temperament for the job:
He had one bad debate. A debate is no indication of his temperament behind the scenes. Obama had one bad debate, at the time called the worst debate performance in modern history by an incumbent in a national election.

Trump's immigration policy will serve as a rallying call for terrorists without slowing down immigration:
This has been asserted and asserted and asserted but it's as flimsy and wishy washy an assertion as they come. What is a rallying call exactly? Who is rallying who? And why should we believe that terrorist recruitment will be worse under Trumps immigration policy than Clinton's interventionist policy?

Your last sentence is just political stereotyping. Demonstrated by sociological research to be the least accurate form of stereotyping.

Billy86 · 02-10-2016 08:24PM

oik wrote: »

Risks of a HIllary presidency:

War: Exponentially higher chance of a foreign intervention. She supported every foreign intervention since she entered politics.

100% applicable to Trump who supported both Iraq and Libya, and has said he plans to "bomb the sh*t" out of the middle east.

Foreign influence: Charles Krauthammer's article in the National Review outlines how foreign donors launder money through Canada into the Clinton Foundation and use it to buy influence. There's nothing to stop that from continuing when she is president.

100% applicable to Trump who is heavily indebted to both Russian and Saudi benefactors, as well as likely many others as a result of his multiple bankruptcies and inability to get many loans off US institutions anymore, as a result of these.

Health: Hillary's health is a bigger concern than Trump's.

Entirely untrue, as evidenced by Trump's sniffling and guzzling down of water during the debate, it was too much exertion for a man his age who was unable to serve in the military due to poor health, who is very noticeably overweight, is older than Clinton, and is a male (lower life expectancy).

Immigration:
Her laxed immigration policy could lead to an increase in terrorist attacks

Untrue as illegal immigration has been on the decline in the US for a decade and shows no sign of changing.

Trump's plans on the other hand, would be to ISIS what Thatcher was to the IRA, and then some. I'm betting we will see a few attempts between now and the election from them and/or other terrorist cells trying to engineer a paranoid vote in his favour. Make no doubt about it, these terrorist groups love 'their people' becoming disaffected and feeling unwanted or unwelcome, and Trump would play right into their hands on it. Not too differently to how he has played right into Clinton's hands on a number of occasions in the last month or two - such is the case when you (rather, he) has such an utter lack of self awareness or ability to think things through.

Lack of transparency:
Obama has been less transparent than most but Hillary Clinton takes the cake when it comes to a lack of transparency.

Get back to me on this when we've seen Trump's tax returns, among all his other shady secrets. He can consider himself very lucky that the tame US media has given him an easy ride this election cycle by typically just repeating what he says (to the anger of his own followers, something truly perplexing) rather than delving deeply into other issues like they did (rightly, I should add) with Clinton's emails, such as his multiple fraud cases coming up in November for stealing millions off the US public.

oik · 02-10-2016 08:26PM

US media has given him an easy ride this election.

Uh huh, tell me more about that.

Billy86 · 02-10-2016 08:44PM

oik wrote: »

Uh huh, tell me more about that.

Like I said, they typically just repeat what he said and Trump supporters get very, very upset about it - it's one of the more mystifying things in any election, possibly ever. Fact is, he's got an easy ride for the most part considering his past. For example, how much coverage Trump's upcoming multiple trials for defrauding millions of dollars from the US public have gotten, compared to Clinton's email scandal? You didn't seem keen to include that part of my post in the quote.

How much mention have his other three thousand, five hundred (yes, 3,500) lawsuits gotten during this election cycle? Or his well documented pally relations with the mafia? And that's just scratching the surface. Like I said, an easy ride has been given to him by the media and that's really all there is to it.

I see you concede on all the other points, though. So there's that at least.

Overheal · 02-10-2016 08:45PM

oik wrote: »

Uh huh, tell me more about that.

K

http://www.salon.com/2016/08/24/sean-hannity-has-given-donald-trump-31-million-in-free-coverage-reports-media-matters/

conditioned games · 02-10-2016 08:51PM

Hillary Clinton off resting up again for 3 days, will make a 15 minute speech in a half empty basketball stadium and then disappear again. Trump travelling around the country giving speeches to 15 and 20 thousand with people queuing outside door.

We all better hope Clinton never becomes president. The US are craving war, ensured peace talks in Syria ended by dropping bomb on government forces in east of country killing 60 saying it was accident, now they want to cut off talks with Russia and drag the west into war with east. Clinton is bad bad.

oik · 02-10-2016 08:54PM

>Using Sean Hannity as representative of the entire media when he's not even part of the mainstream in his own network.

Try harder.

oik · 02-10-2016 08:55PM

I see you concede on all the other points, though.

Where did I do that?

oik · 02-10-2016 08:57PM

Trump's tax returns

You're confusing transparency in office with transparency in one's private life. Those are two separate things. Trump's tax returns are an entirely private matter. This is just a fad started a few decades ago that has nothing whatsoever to do with fitness for the presidency.

Did you know Clinton was ridiculed a few years ago for deducting $2 for underwear she donated to charity in her tax returns? So it seems Trump is not alone in wanting to reduce his tax burden.

Billy86 · 02-10-2016 09:12PM

oik wrote: »

Where did I do that?

When you were unable to refute them. Fact is, almost everything Trump fans love to moan about when it comes to Clinton, are completely applicable back to him.

oik wrote: »

You're confusing transparency in office with transparency in one's private life. Those are two separate things. Trump's tax returns are an entirely private matter. This is just a fad started a few decades ago that has nothing whatsoever to do with fitness for the presidency.

Did you know Clinton was ridiculed a few years ago for deducting $2 for underwear she donated to charity in her tax returns? So it seems Trump is not alone in wanting to reduce his tax burden.

Sorry, but when Trump has ZERO experience in office, even at the lowest end, his transparency as a candidate is all he can be judged on. It's as simple as that, otherwise I'm a better businessman than Trump because I've not claimed bankruptcy once, never mind four times. And as a candidate (or a businessman, where again he has a long, long, long history of being very shady and anything but transparent), he continues to refuse to show his taxes - because, in part, he doesn't pay them, which he also lied about Monday. The fact checker's consistently showing him piling lies on top of lies on top of lies also prove this false.

$2.00... $900,000,000.00... sure what's the difference, right? :rolleyes:

Fact is, you wanted to claim Trump is 'more transparent' than Clinton, but he isn't. It's that simple. If you're trying to now shift the goalposts and claim he is 'as a politician' and are basing that simply on the fact that he has ZERO experience in politics, then by that same token I'm a better businessman than he is. It's a cop out.

B_Wayne · 02-10-2016 09:12PM

conditioned games wrote: »

Hillary Clinton off resting up again for 3 days, will make a 15 minute speech in a half empty basketball stadium and then disappear again. Trump travelling around the country giving speeches to 15 and 20 thousand with people queuing outside door.

We all better hope Clinton never becomes president. The US are craving war, ensured peace talks in Syria ended by dropping bomb on government forces in east of country killing 60 saying it was accident, now they want to cut off talks with Russia and drag the west into war with east. Clinton is bad bad.

Yet Trump couldn't competently handle a 90 minute debate with Hillary Clinton.... You sure you've thought this true?

Christy42 · 02-10-2016 09:22PM

oik wrote: »

War is more likely with Trump:
Based on what? Trump is the less hawkish of the two by any measure except military spending which arguable is more likely to prevent war than cause it.

The debate shows he has no temperament for the job:
He had one bad debate. A debate is no indication of his temperament behind the scenes. Obama had one bad debate, at the time called the worst debate performance in modern history by an incumbent in a national election.

Trump's immigration policy will serve as a rallying call for terrorists without slowing down immigration:
This has been asserted and asserted and asserted but it's as flimsy and wishy washy an assertion as they come. What is a rallying call exactly? Who is rallying who? And why should we believe that terrorist recruitment will be worse under Trumps immigration policy than Clinton's interventionist policy?

Your last sentence is just political stereotyping. Demonstrated by sociological research to be the least accurate form of stereotyping.

When he said he would bomb the **** of the middle east.

Sorry see pretty much any debate by Trump plus a host of tv appearances. I mean he promised to pay legal fees for anyone who assaulted his opponent's supporters. He cried about his opponents being mean.

Isis recruiters will use this to tell Muslims that they are being oppressed. It is a lot harder to tell them they aren't being discriminated against when you are disriminating against them.

Hardly. Conspiracy theorists tend to believe conspiracy theories. You have 0 evidence of Hillary's I'll health. You may also note that I chose conspiracy theories that Trump believes (the fact that he leaves his house without a tin foil hat is impressive really).

conditioned games · 02-10-2016 09:24PM

B_Wayne wrote: »

Yet Trump couldn't competently handle a 90 minute debate with Hillary Clinton.... You sure you've thought this true?

He got his message across, all online polls including reputable ones had him destroying Clinton. Mainstream media had Clinton win, these are controlled media corporations owned by wealthy elite people that don't represent the average American. He needs to attack more next time but still his message is powerful and with the crowds his getting I'm confident he can win for the ordinary man and woman.

Christy42 · 02-10-2016 09:28PM

conditioned games wrote: »

He got his message across, all online polls including reputable ones had him destroying Clinton. Mainstream media had Clinton win, these are controlled media corporations owned by wealthy elite people that don't represent the average American. He needs to attack more next time but still his message is powerful and with the crowds his getting I'm confident he can win for the ordinary man and woman.

And polls since the debate have shown Clinton gaining strength. Aside from being proud of not paying his way (I thought Republicans hated those note being able to pay their way) what was his message?

oik · 02-10-2016 09:30PM

$2.00... $900,000,000.00... sure what's the difference, right?

There's no difference when it comes to matter of principle.

If you'll claim tax back for donating your used underwear you'll claim everything you can.

oik · 02-10-2016 09:31PM

Hardly. Conspiracy theorists tend to believe conspiracy theories. You have 0 evidence of Hillary's I'll health. You may also note that I chose conspiracy theories that Trump believes (the fact that he leaves his house without a tin foil hat is impressive really).

I have evidence of her collapsing in public. Would you like to see it?

oik · 02-10-2016 09:33PM

you wanted to claim Trump is 'more transparent' than Clinton

No I didn't. I outlined the various risks of both candidates.

But since you mention it, Trump is extremely transparent. He's transparent to a fault.

Billy86 · 02-10-2016 09:34PM

oik wrote: »

There's no difference when it comes to matter of principle.

If you'll claim tax back for donating your used underwear you'll claim everything you can.

Well then you concede that Trump is no more transparent than Clinton, since it's all a matter of principle. Basically making the one claim you were willing to defend, by your own admission, pointless.

PopePalpatine · 02-10-2016 09:35PM

If online polls were anything to go by, Ron Paul would be coming to the end of an 8-year stint in the White House.

Billy86 · 02-10-2016 09:44PM

oik wrote: »

No I didn't. I outlined the various risks of both candidates.

You claimed lack of transparency was a risk for Clinton, but not for Trump. So yes, you did. Very, very simple. See, here is it:

oik wrote: »

Risks of a Trump presidency:
**No mention of transparency**

Risks of a HIllary presidency:
Lack of transparency:
Obama has been less transparent than most but Hillary Clinton takes the cake when it comes to a lack of transparency.

There you go. Like I said, simple.

But since you mention it, Trump is extremely transparent. He's transparent to a fault.

So is Clinton then. See, I can make a statement that has no baring on reality also. Back to those tax returns since he's so 'transparent to a fault'... where are they?

RobertKK · 02-10-2016 09:45PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

It utterly baffles me how you can keep bringing this up while singing the praises of Condoleeza Rice. It's inherently hypocritical.

I mentioned Rice many many weeks ago, is she running for the presidency?

Clinton is going for the presidency and is great for the weapons and war industry.
She will bankrupt the country with wars, and when the damage is done, she will be unable to use her stupid reset button.

oik · 02-10-2016 09:48PM

When you were unable to refute them.

Just because I don't respond to every one of your allegations doesn't mean I can't refute them.

You don't command enough respect for me to worry about your unsubstantiated arguments being out in the ether unchallenged.

oik · 02-10-2016 09:50PM

You claimed lack of transparency was a risk for Clinton, but not for Trump.

That doesn't mean anything

Trump has never deleted any evidence or instructed an aide to. He has furnished his tax returns to the IRS which is as much transparency as the office of president requires.

And there's a huge difference between someone controlling information about themselves during a hotly contested political campaign and someone deliberately hiding their communications while in office in direct violation of the law.

2016 U.S. Presidential Race Megathread Mark 2.

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