Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

km79 · 01-10-2016 09:26PM

Spudman_20000 wrote: »

Explain to me so the rationale behind not starting Clarke and instead stating the goalkeeper for Breaffy? Wake up, good lad.

why didn't they start their brother so ?
or bring him on the last day at all?
he had been very good when used the game before
Bad call by them !

Spudman_20000 · 01-10-2016 09:29PM

km79 wrote: »

why didn't they start their brother so ?
or bring him on the last day at all?
he had been very good when used the game before
Bad call by them !

The three of them couldn't put the ball over the bar at end, and it wasn't for the lack of them passing the ball to each other.

Shurimgreat · 01-10-2016 09:29PM

km79 wrote: »

rochford has made massive calls all year and they worked
today felt like making one cos he felt he had to make one
got it badly wrong end of story
Still an enjoyable year and can't wait for spring

I think this particular Mayo team could win an AI without any management but of course you have to have someone on the sideline "calling the shots".

There have been countless examples in the last 5 years of the management undermining the performance of the team on the field with frankly idiotic decisions you wouldn't see a u10 B manager make. Last years replay against Dublin, 2013 against Dublin and also this year against Dublin spring to mind.

I'm not sure where Mayo football goes from here or if Rochford is the right person to take them forward. I'd be in favour of giving him another year. Personally I couldn't care less what decisions he makes against the likes of Tipperary. You prove yourself as a manager on AI final day.

charlie14 · 01-10-2016 09:30PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

There was no "edge" to be gained from dropping Clarke. He kept Mayo in the first game on several occasions. He was outstanding, easily Mayo's best player.

On what planet does dropping your best player from the first game for a replay constitute gaining an "edge"?

In contrast BB was abysmal in the first game and more than deserved to be dropped.

If you had read my earlier post I think I made it clear what edge they thought they would get.
Dublin had targeted short Mayo kick outs from which at least 2 points came from final minutes of the drawn game.
With Hennely it appears they were going for distance and putting pressure on the Dublin defence before the got their defensive screen in place.
Had it of worked the management would be lauded at this stage.
I doubt if they did it intentionally with the aim of losing!

martyos121 · 01-10-2016 09:31PM

It was a rough day, but I've no doubt in my mind we'll come back next year and give it everything once more. Anyone can say what they like about the performance of Mayo in big games and crumbling under pressure (certainly not an opinion I share to be clear), but there is absolutely no quit in this team. Every year we bow out it's said to be "the end of the road" for this panel, and credit to them, they dust themselves off and come back the following year even hungrier.

I'm sure we can go far again next year but I'm sure I speak for most when I say I hope we bloody win the thing. I know there's enough talent in that panel to win an All Ireland title, but it has to be earned through hard work from the players and solid management, and while you can't fault the players' effort and heart, the management will only learn from today and the same mistake won't be made again I'm sure.

Heartbroken, but proud of the team and optimistic as ever for next year. Well done to the Dubs though, a great team and deserving champions over the course of the season it must be said.

charlie14 · 01-10-2016 09:38PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I think this particular Mayo team could win an AI without any management but of course you have to have someone on the sideline "calling the shots".

There have been countless examples in the last 5 years of the management undermining the performance of the team on the field with frankly idiotic decisions you wouldn't see a u10 B manager make. Last years replay against Dublin, 2013 against Dublin and also this year against Dublin spring to mind.

I'm not sure where Mayo football goes from here or if Rochford is the right person to take them forward. I'd be in favour of giving him another year. Personally I couldn't care less what decisions he makes against the likes of Tipperary. You prove yourself as a manager on AI final day.

You cannot just have a team picking itself and then have someone on the line calling the shots.
Rochford to me did a very good job this year taking Mayo from the Galway defeat to an AI final and for creating a structure that has stopped the leaking of silly goals which no manager of this squad did before him.
To me he is well deserving of being given time and not pilloried because of one decision that didn`t work on the day.

Shurimgreat · 01-10-2016 09:38PM

charlie14 wrote: »

If you had read my earlier post I think I made it clear what edge they thought they would get.
Dublin had targeted short Mayo kick outs from which at least 2 points came from final minutes of the drawn game.
With Hennely it appears they were going for distance and putting pressure on the Dublin defence before the got their defensive screen in place.
Had it of worked the management would be lauded at this stage.
I doubt if they did it intentionally with the aim of losing!

There was nothing wrong with Clarke's kickouts the first day. In contrast Hennelly's were a disaster today. Why drop a keeper who saved us at least two goals the first day for a keeper who after a few years on the panel is still largely unproven and an accident waiting to happen. There really is no defending this and no logic whatsoever to the goalkeeper decision.

We will have to chalk 2016 as another year where the sideline screwed things up.

washman3 · 01-10-2016 09:41PM

Spudman_20000 wrote: »

Everyone knows the players, specifically the O'Sheas, were calling the shots this year, and Mayo has paid the price.

At least somebody is brave enough to admit it.
No coincidence that Clarke was dropped for a Breaffy player.
Connolly and Holmes fully vindicated now. Both shafted by a small bunch of prima-donnas whose biggest interest is gaining personal accolades, rather than team victories.
No coincidence also that teams without individual egomaniacs are usually successful. Kerry,Dublin in football, Tipp/Kilkenny in hurling.
My own county, Limerick suffer the exact same malaise as Mayo, a continuous small bunch of prima-donnas undermining successive managements for their own personal gain, while the county pays the price. Our results don't lie either, 6 A.I. final losses since we've last won one.

Shurimgreat · 01-10-2016 09:43PM

charlie14 wrote: »

If you had read my earlier post I think I made it clear what edge they thought they would get.
Dublin had targeted short Mayo kick outs from which at least 2 points came from final minutes of the drawn game.
With Hennely it appears they were going for distance and putting pressure on the Dublin defence before the got their defensive screen in place.
Had it of worked the management would be lauded at this stage.
I doubt if they did it intentionally with the aim of losing!

But it didn't work. That's the difference between good management and bad.

Good managers don't take gambles. They take decisions based on sound thinking and weighing things up and if they are unsure, they leave things as is and they don't change a winning formula.

Ah look it, I've given up on Mayo managers at this stage. Bad decision after bad decision on AI final day. Today another one.

charlie14 · 01-10-2016 09:45PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

There was nothing wrong Clarke's kickouts the first day. In contrast Henley's were a disaster today. Why drop a keeper who saved us at least two goals the first day for a keeper who after a few years on the panel is still largely unproven and an accident waiting to happen. There really is no defending this and no logic whatsoever to the goalkeeper decision.

We will have to chalk 2016 as another year where the sideline screwed things up.

I know it was probably a case of looking through your fingers due to tension in the draw game, so perhaps that is why you missed at least two off Dublins points coming off his kick outs.

babybuilder · 01-10-2016 09:48PM

charlie14 wrote: »

I know it was probably a case of looking through your fingers due to tension in the draw game, so perhaps that is why you missed at least two off Dublins points coming off his kick outs.

Two versus 1-4.

LeoB · 01-10-2016 09:49PM

charlie14 wrote: »

You cannot just have a team picking itself and then have someone on the line calling the shots.
Rochford to me did a very good job this year taking Mayo from the Galway defeat to an AI final and for creating a structure that has stopped the leaking of silly goals which no manager of this squad did before him.
To me he is well deserving of being given time and not pilloried because of one decision that didn`t work on the day.

Think the point being made is anyone with a bit of a brain could win an All-Ireland with this Mayo team. Rochford done nothing more than Holmes/Connelley. This is a seriously good side but lets not make Rochford into something he isn't. The decision to drop Clarke leaves serious question marks over him and management team.

Shurimgreat · 01-10-2016 09:49PM

charlie14 wrote: »

I know it was probably a case of looking through your fingers due to tension in the draw game, so perhaps that is why you missed at least two off Dublins points coming off his kick outs.

I don't want to personalise things with Hennelly, the guy for whatever reason was put in an impossible situation.

Do you admit that Clarke was one of Mayo's best players in the drawn game?

There is no way on earth he should have been dropped. I can think of at least 10 other players if not more, any one of whom could have been dropped ahead of him. But for me Clarke should have been the first name on the teamsheet.

You don't win All-Irelands by dropping your best players! This is not rocket science.

charlie14 · 01-10-2016 09:54PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

But it didn't work. That's the difference between good management and bad.

Good managers don't take gambles. They take decisions based on sound thinking and weighing things up and if they are unsure, they leave things as is and they don't change a winning formula.

Ah look it, I've given up on Mayo managers at this stage. Bad decision after bad decision on AI final day. Today another one.

The margins are so narrow nowadays that management cannot keep doing the same things and expect too get different results.
Two weeks ago neither team had the winning formula and both managers went with changes.Dublin made three of which imo one worked. Mayo made one that didn`t.
If I was to fault Mayo`s management it would be that they didn`t take him off at half time when it was obvious it wasn`t working, not for trying something they felt would make a difference from the drawn game.

km79 · 01-10-2016 09:54PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I don't want to personalise things with Henley, the guy for whatever reason was put in an impossible situation.

Do you admit that Clarke was one of Mayo's best players in the drawn game?

There is no way on earth he should have been dropped. I can think of at least 10 other players if not more, any one of whom could have been dropped ahead of him. But for me Clarke should have been the first name on the teamsheet.

You don't win All-Irelands by dropping your best players! This is not rocket science.

you certainly aren't personalising it when you can't even spell his surname properly
imshururagreatkeeper
ignore list

Spudman_20000 · 01-10-2016 09:55PM

washman3 wrote: »

Connolly and Holmes fully vindicated now.

Not really, as soon as that pair started the nepotism, it was time to show them the door.

Shurimgreat · 01-10-2016 09:56PM

charlie14 wrote: »

The margins are so narrow nowadays that management cannot keep doing the same things and expect too get different results.
Two weeks ago neither team had the winning formula and both managers went with changes.Dublin made three of which imo one worked. Mayo made one that didn`t.
If I was to fault Mayo`s management it would be that they didn`t take him off at half time when it was obvious it wasn`t working, not for trying something they felt would make a difference from the drawn game.

Never mind the margins. You don't win AI's by dropping your best players.

charlie14 · 01-10-2016 09:57PM

babybuilder wrote: »

Two versus 1-4.

I`m sure if Rochford had a crystal ball that could see into the future he wouldn`t have started him.

charlie14 · 01-10-2016 09:59PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Never mind the margins. You don't win AI's by dropping your best players.

Neither do you by doing the same things again and again that James Horan did.

Shurimgreat · 01-10-2016 10:00PM

charlie14 wrote: »

I`m sure if Rochford had a crystal ball that could see into the future he wouldn`t have started him.

Why would he need a crystal ball?

Replacing an in form keeper, tipped as an All-Star, for someone who has been out of form and lacking match practice.

This is a basic error in anyone's book.

charlie14 · 01-10-2016 10:04PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Why would he need a crystal ball?

Replacing an in form keeper, tipped as an All-Star, for someone who has been out of form and lacking match practice.

This is a basic error in anyone's book.

Then sack him and sack any manager in the future that tries something he believes that will get you over the line when he gets a call wrong.
In a very short space of time you will end up having little trouble with interviews for the job.

cavan4sam · 01-10-2016 10:14PM

Hard luck today ....gutted for ye ...keep ur heads high and keep fighting the fight.... Sport as is life is a pure c%&t at times .....see ye in division 1 in spring

Robeman · 01-10-2016 10:19PM

Robeman wrote: »

Mayo will either win the final or they will lose

If they win it will be a case of absolute footballing talent overcoming every other short coming that is in place in the Mayo set up at the moment and since time immemorial.

If they lose it will once again be because we have never sorted out the rotten structure that is Mayo GAA.

To win an All Ireland you need

- A talented panel of footballers who also have good character. Footballers who only work for the good of the team and its success and do not put their personal egos above the team.

- A good manager who is in charge of the show with the talent to put together a good management team who will provide the support to the on the pitch effort.

- A competent county board with the ability to select a good manager and support him for the duration of his tenure. One with the competence to do whats best for their county in the corridors of power in Dublin. One that leaves no one in doubt that it is ultimately in charge.

We have never in my life time had all of the above at the same time. The same is true this year.

We have always had the talent this has been one constant. Too often we have had big egos with no All Irelands in their pockets. Too often we as supporters have worshippped these egos and never stopped to think that its takes a panel to win an All Ireland not a talented individual or a few talented individuals.

We have had good managers and bad and their successes with Mayo have been limited to 2 league titles in 66 years.

John O Mahoney could win 2 All Ireland with Galway but none with Mayo even with 2 stints in charge why ? Answer I would say was county board.

James Horan had probably the most impressive tenure since 51 but still no cigar Why ? Answer I would say good but not good enough.

The other constant we have had in Mayo is an incompetent County board.

Too often they have got selection of County Manager wrong, too often they select a manager and then they have wanted to manage the team themselves, too often they have not given managers the resources they need, too often they have selected a good managers and have not had the balls to stand by them in moments of difficulty, too often they have allowed Croke Park to treat Mayo as a second class county. Too often they have demonstrated that they don't know what is going on and what they should be doing.

Once again as in 89, 96, 97, 04, 06, 12, 13 we are in a final and we are all hoping for success and deceiving ourselves that everything is rosy in the garden and getting stressed about tickets. There is also the saga as in every one of the recent all ireland years of wrapping players in cotton wool (has not worked in the past so why should it work this year). Once again we are like kids heading for the sweetshop where we will meet the older wiser kids who will get the pick of the nicest sweets.

We may win as at the end of the day its 15 v 15 but I think it is unlikely. The bookies and professional commentators and also informed public rarely get it wrong.

We can then look forward to the blood letting that will accompany defeat as many chickens will come home to roost. We will let the blood flow but will probabaly solve nothing and in a few years we will once again get to a final and repeat.

I have kept quiet for past 5 weeks as I decided to let things take their course. I got a lot of abuse for my comments and unfortunately I was correct in my thinking. This gives me no pleasure especially after 2 trips to Dublin.

If we do not start doing the right things immediately we will lay the foundation for the next defeat.

babybuilder · 01-10-2016 10:24PM

charlie14 wrote: »

Then sack him and sack any manager in the future that tries something he believes that will get you over the line when he gets a call wrong.
In a very short space of time you will end up having little trouble with interviews for the job.

I'm not a mayo supporter and neither should anyone be calling for anyone to be sacked. He just made a serious error of judgement. This team can win an all Ireland. I'd say they'll win one before Rory Gallagher s Team will win one

Peist2007 · 01-10-2016 10:31PM

PressRun wrote: »

Can't get over the hennelly call tbh.

Unbelievable.

Robeman · 01-10-2016 10:31PM

Robeman wrote: »

When you are the boss the buck stops with you. Simple yes. True yes in any serious organisation. Mayo's failures have never been properly documented in a factual manner. They have been discussed in the media, in the pub and in a million conversations but there have never been any factual independent examination of and open reporting of why we have failed so often. The Mayo Board is rarely open and transparent.

Rather than ridiculing my analysis give me better logic. Kerry men do not start out with any special physical or mental attributes that Mayo men do not have and the playing population is similar. Therefore they must be trained and managed in a better manner than Mayo to be so much more successful. To do this I suggest that they have a more skillful county board.

Luck is rarely anything to do with winning and losing. Losing one or two might be down to luck but not 7. Meath were a better team and they had a better manager. The same statement applies to all 7 winning teams and their managers. The best team have the best manager and they always win. If Mayo win next month they will be the best team and SR the best Mgr this year.

I would agree that we have had above average talented players these past few years and in JH we had an above average Mgr by Mayo standards but no All Ireland no not as good as teams \ Mgrs of counties that won in this period. There is nothing wrong with plenty of confidence, aggro, ambition so long as the team comes first. With ego it is all about me me me and not the team. As regards unfounded salacious tales I agree but what about the true salacious tales ?

The jury will judge SR on his record this year which will be 1/1 or 0/1. Even if he loses we will look favourably on him so long as we do not subsequently learn that he was not actually in charge but the players were. For some players if we win it will be 1/5 or 0/5. The rewards will be better if they win as they will be considered gods but if they lose they will be considered in the end arrogent bottlers.

Cannot disagree with the above re Board. The county board always has good intentions. It just screwed up in all of the sagas you mentioned plus in the change of manager this year.

Cork GAA are the biggest county in GAA in terms of clubs (even bigger than Dublin I believe). They are probably the only county that comes close to Mayo in terms of screwing up their football teams and also their hurling teams due entirely to a dysfunctional board and admin set up.

I am detecting a lot of negative sentiment and even anger against this team and the big egos within it. There is not the same level of uncritical support that there was for every previous final from 89. For every other final it was tickets tickets tickets, this time many are openly saying they are not going.

This team may win in which case they will be forgiven for what they have done. If they lose many of them will be villified.

Apart from "luck" I agree with your final comments. So long as the group of players put the team first.

I said Mayo team were arrogent bottlers a month ago and stand by this comment. Joe Brolly was better in his description "Celebrity losers"

Peist2007 · 01-10-2016 10:34PM

Robeman wrote: »

I have kept quiet for past 5 weeks as I decided to let things take their course. I got a lot of abuse for my comments and unfortunately I was correct in my thinking. This gives me no pleasure especially after 2 trips to Dublin.

If we do not start doing the right things immediately we will lay the foundation for the next defeat.

John O'Mahoney won two All Irelands with Galway because he had Joyce, Walsh, Donnellan, Savage, Mannion, De Paor, Fahy, Silke. Players win All Irelands. Not county boards. You have a problem with the county board. Good for you and your retrospective genius

Peist2007 · 01-10-2016 10:37PM

charlie14 wrote: »

Then sack him and sack any manager in the future that tries something he believes that will get you over the line when he gets a call wrong.
In a very short space of time you will end up having little trouble with interviews for the job.

His job shouldnt be secure after today. Say what we like but that was a momumental fk up

Robeman · 01-10-2016 10:39PM

Robeman wrote: »

it

All of it and all of them. There probably are exceptions but nothing \ nobody stands out. As a suggestion we should thing about bringing in an outside County Chairman. If we need to pay to get a good one then so be it. We have been paying managers who bring no success for years. Maybe money might be better spent on a county chairman who might put in place some foundations upon which success might be built.

After a failure to win from 10 attempts we need to start thinking outside the box.

PressRun · 01-10-2016 10:39PM

Rochford should keep the job, no question. But questions should be asked over the Hennelly call. He shouldn't be exempt from questioning.

Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

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