2016 U.S. Presidential Race Megathread Mark 2.

Akrasia · 24-09-2016 09:24AM

oik wrote: »

Look, I'm not against food regulations and I don't believe for a second that Trump is either. See my earlier post.

Can I just ask, do you go through the same rigmarole every time Trump starts a conversation about a topic?

Take his first statement at face value and then run with it?

This election cycle must have been very tedious and repetitive for you.

His strategy is to keep people like you who work in the media arguing over every little thing he says as he gradually, slowly but surely makes his way back towards the centre on every issue stealing all the headlines in the process.

Absolute nonsense. If you're looking for a pattern in the way Trump communicates, it's not a deliberate strategy of provacation to grab our attention followed by measured explanation of a rational policy.

The only pattern is: Trump blurts something out in order to please whatever crowd he thinks he's talking to, followed by a random scatter of statements either doubling down on previous claims, or saying the opposite, or pretending he never made those claims in the first place.

oik · 24-09-2016 11:12AM

Absolute nonsense. If you're looking for a pattern in the way Trump communicates, it's not a deliberate strategy of provacation to grab our attention followed by measured explanation of a rational policy.

The only pattern is: Trump blurts something out in order to please whatever crowd he thinks he's talking to, followed by a random scatter of statements either doubling down on previous claims, or saying the opposite, or pretending he never made those claims in the first place.

Yes that's called AB testing in the computer programming world. He throws out an idea and sees how well it's received then acts accordingly. And it's not absolute nonsense, nor is what he says random.

Put it this way, if a guy is on the cusp of becoming president and you think he's crazy or a dummy, then the smart money is on you being wrong.

Calina · 24-09-2016 11:13AM

oik wrote: »

Yes that's called AB testing in the computer programming world. He throws out an idea and sees how well it's received then acts accordingly. And it's not absolute nonsense, nor is what he says random.

Put it this way, if I guy is on the cusp of becoming president and you think it's crazy or a dummy, then the smart money is on you being wrong.

There is no way that Trump is applying AB testing in his speeches. He really isn't intelligent enough and the occasions on which he's been dragged into the real world and told what to say he's clearly not wanted to.

oik · 24-09-2016 11:17AM

There is no way that Trump is applying AB testing in his speeches. He really isn't intelligent enough and the occasions on which he's been dragged into the real world and told what to say he's clearly not wanted to.

He's intelligent enough to run rings around every opponent he's come up against and stay in the running with the political establishment and media against him but not intelligent enough to use AB testing. Okay...

gosplan · 24-09-2016 12:09PM

Trumps problem isn't intelligence.

It's being

1: highly reactionary
2: unprincipled
3: very 'loose' as regards legalities and corruption

B0jangles · 24-09-2016 12:13PM

According to Trump's Director of African-American outreach, Omarosa Manigault, Trump made the decision to run for president the night Obama laughed at him at the 2011 White House Correspondent's Dinner.

She also said the following:

“Every critic, every detractor, will have to bow down to President Trump. It’s everyone who’s ever doubted Donald, who ever disagreed, who ever challenged him. It is the ultimate revenge to become the most powerful man in the universe.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/omarosa-bown-to-president-trump_us_57e47e34e4b0e80b1ba15296

At this point I feel like we've slipped into an alternate universe entirely written by Marvel Comics.

oik · 24-09-2016 12:43PM

According to Trump's Director of African-American outreach, Omarosa Manigault, Trump made the decision to run for president the night Obama laughed at him at the 2011 White House Correspondent's Dinner.

She also said the following:

At this point I feel like we've slipped into an alternate universe entirely written by Marvel Comics.

Wouldn't believe a word that comes out of Omarosa's mouth tbh. She made Piers Morgan likeable. And I highly doubt Trump would ever confide that in her, she's probably just looking for attention for herself.

Count Dooku · 24-09-2016 01:19PM

gosplan wrote: »

Trumps problem isn't intelligence.

It's being

1: highly reactionary
2: unprincipled
3: very 'loose' as regards legalities and corruption

and if despite this Clinton is "not 50 points ahead" Trump, it can mean only that she is least electable POTUS candidate and must resign immediately
Problem is not that Trump is bad, problem is that Clinton is not any better or sometimes even worse that him. At least Trump has some chances to propose something new, while Clinton will continue with failed policies of Obama

Overheal · 24-09-2016 02:08PM

oik wrote: »

He's intelligent enough to run rings around every opponent he's come up against and stay in the running with the political establishment and media against him but not intelligent enough to use AB testing. Okay...

It's nothing to do with intellect and everything to do with being a narcissistic sociopath. He just literally doesn't care what others think, whereas the normal psyche that runs for president has what the layman would call a conscience.

oik · 24-09-2016 02:53PM

It's nothing to do with intellect and everything to do with being a narcissistic sociopath. He just literally doesn't care what others think, whereas the normal psyche that runs for president has what the layman would call a conscience.

Well now I understand your problem. You think caring what others think is a normal positive thing. Healthy people only care about what their family and close friends think of them.

I also think it's strange that you think conscience is a common thing in a presidential candidate. I can think of two presidents who more than likely did not have a conscience off the top of my head. Bill and LBJ. They were also two of the most popular and effective presidents of the 20th century.

Akrasia · 24-09-2016 05:19PM

oik wrote: »

Well now I understand your problem. You think caring what others think is a normal positive thing. Healthy people only care about what their family and close friends think of them.

I also think it's strange that you think conscience is a common thing in a presidential candidate. I can think of two presidents who more than likely did not have a conscience off the top of my head. Bill and LBJ. They were also two of the most popular and effective presidents of the 20th century.

Caring about what others think is a pretty important quality in someone running in a popularity contest.

Caring about others is an important quality in a public representative. Trump only cares about himself, and only cares about what others can do for him.

He uses everyone, and the voters who vote for him are like Lenin's useful idiots. He will shaft anyone if he thinks it will benefit him in some way

I'm not convinced that Clinton is much better in this regard, but she is at least mindful of the optics and public perception of her, so this constrains what she is prepared to do.

KingBrian2 · 24-09-2016 05:47PM

Overheal wrote: »

It's nothing to do with intellect and everything to do with being a narcissistic sociopath. He just literally doesn't care what others think, whereas the normal psyche that runs for president has what the layman would call a conscience.

He does care what people think. The American people that is. Why should he give a toss what his political opponents believe! He is ultimately answerable to the electorate. The need to conform with Washington is an unattractive characteristic in this climate. Most Americans have already made up their minds on a lot of the big issues like gun control, immigration, climate change, foreign wars, bank bailouts and the National Deficit. Democrats & Liberals will attack him no matter what. Once he is a friend of Conservatives than he becomes enemy number 1.

oik · 24-09-2016 06:06PM

I'm not convinced that Clinton is much better in this regard, but she is at least mindful of the optics and public perception of her, so this constrains what she is prepared to do.

If we're going to talk about constraints, Trump will be subject to far more scrutiny as president from the media the Democrats and his own party than any other candidate would have been.

oik · 24-09-2016 06:11PM

Caring about what others think is a pretty important quality in someone running in a popularity contest.

Caring what others think on a deep personal level is different to caring about one's public perception for the purposes of politics.

The poster Overheal was referring to the former. Of course Trump cares what the public thinks when it comes to winning their support.

oik · 24-09-2016 06:13PM

Given the extent to which the Clinton's suppress any negative information about themselves, pneumonia, emails, the Benghazi video lie, etc. are people going to be satisfied with an administration that treats every piece of info as though it's none of the public's business?

Trump will get away with far less of that as president due to the level of scrutiny he'll be under.

K-9 · 24-09-2016 06:25PM

oik wrote: »

If we're going to talk about constraints, Trump will be subject to far more scrutiny as president from the media the Democrats and his own party than any other candidate would have been.

If the Republicans control both houses and the Presidency, rightly so.

Overheal · 24-09-2016 07:16PM

Nobody is really talking about congressional races, which 6 weeks away from the vote is a bit worrisome.

oik wrote: »

If we're going to talk about constraints, Trump will be subject to far more scrutiny as president from the media the Democrats and his own party than any other candidate would have been.

Frankly that's because I could sleep at night if one of the other choices was in office. Even Cruz despite his bible thumping, would have been a more rational POTUS than Trump ever will be.

KingBrian2 · 24-09-2016 07:27PM

Overheal wrote: »

Nobody is really talking about congressional races, which 6 weeks away from the vote is a bit worrisome.

Frankly that's because I could sleep at night if one of the other choices was in office. Even Cruz despite his bible thumping, would have been a more rational POTUS than Trump ever will be.

Ted Cruz wanted to bring back capital punishment which most States in America are going against. The Pope and Amnesty International are promoting abolishment of the death penalty. His comments on abortion were over the top. You see you hatred for Trump is blinding you. Trump can read his audience well. He is a celebrity personality and has brought so many new faces into politics. He can appeal to the Sanders supporters that Cruz could never have.

Overheal · 24-09-2016 07:29PM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Ted Cruz wanted to bring back capital punishment which most States in America are going against. The Pope and Amnesty International are promoting abolishment of the death penalty. His comments on abortion were over the top. You see you hatred for Trump is blinding you. Trump can read his audience well. He is a celebrity personality and has brought so many new faces into politics. He can appeal to the Sanders supporters that Cruz could never have.

Capital Punishment is not something the executive branch gets to set policy on, so he can think that all he wants. Some states still have capital punishment, its a decision left to the states.

Whereas deporting 11 million illegals is something the POTUS can ordain, though its limited by the funding of congress...

KingBrian2 · 24-09-2016 07:36PM

Overheal wrote: »

Capital Punishment is not something the executive branch gets to set policy on, so he can think that all he wants. Some states still have capital punishment, its a decision left to the states.

Whereas deporting 11 million illegals is something the POTUS can ordain, though its limited by the funding of congress...

Cruz supporters are proponents of the death penalty in America. Those illegals would be in a much worse position even if he ever got close to office.

ebbsy · 24-09-2016 07:41PM

Akrasia wrote: »

Caring about what others think is a pretty important quality in someone running in a popularity contest.

Caring about others is an important quality in a public representative. Trump only cares about himself, and only cares about what others can do for him.

He uses everyone, and the voters who vote for him are like Lenin's useful idiots. He will shaft anyone if he thinks it will benefit him in some way

I'm not convinced that Clinton is much better in this regard, but she is at least mindful of the optics and public perception of her, so this constrains what she is prepared to do.

People who are called idiots usually end up doing the exact opposite to what you want.

oik · 24-09-2016 07:55PM

Capital Punishment is not something the executive branch gets to set policy on, so he can think that all he wants. Some states still have capital punishment, its a decision left to the states.

Whereas deporting 11 million illegals is something the POTUS can ordain, though its limited by the funding of congress...

Look, I realise that every candidate that gets past May with a realistic chance of winning in a primary campaign has been telling a few porkies regardless of what party they're in and has probably made some mad statements to try and drum up the base.

What does Trump say when he wants to get a cheer from the crowd? "We're going to build the wall", "we will enforce the law", "our police and our military are such good people", yeah real harmful stuff.

Ted Cruz, "let's carpet bomb Syria"

Skylinehead · 24-09-2016 07:59PM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Ted Cruz wanted to bring back capital punishment which most States in America are going against.

What do you mean by "bring back"? The US federal government has capital punishment, and no president can dictate to states on their own policies in that regard.

KingBrian2 · 24-09-2016 08:05PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

What do you mean by "bring back"? The US federal government has capital punishment, and no president can dictate to states on their own policies in that regard.

The trend has been away from the death penalty. California and other states kill more people as much as some of the most repressive gvt in the world. A lot of Americans are moving the other way. Massachusetts doe not execute most felonies. The number of executions would soar if execution became a staple of American life.

oscarBravo · 24-09-2016 08:14PM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-s-intel-officials-probe-ties-between-trump-adviser-and-kremlin-175046002.html

The activities of Trump adviser Carter Page, who has extensive business interests in Russia, have been discussed with senior members of Congress during recent briefings about suspected efforts by Moscow to influence the presidential election, the sources said. After one of those briefings, Senate minority leader Harry Reid wrote FBI Director James Comey, citing reports of meetings between a Trump adviser (a reference to Page) and “high ranking sanctioned individuals” in Moscow over the summer as evidence of “significant and disturbing ties” between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin that needed to be investigated by the bureau.

Naturally, this has been greeted with, basically, "Carter Who? Never heard of him" by the Trump camp. Which is about par for the course from a candidate and campaign who make everything up as they go along (including whatever is currently convenient to pass off as the truth).

You'd expect that from a narcissist and his inner circle of yes-men. It's truly bizarre to watch complete outsiders do the same. Some of the rationalisation of his most irrational behaviour on this thread alone is utterly bemusing.

oik · 24-09-2016 08:41PM

Naturally, this has been greeted with, basically, "Carter Who? Never heard of him" by the Trump camp. Which is about par for the course from a candidate and campaign who make everything up as they go along (including whatever is currently convenient to pass off as the truth).

You'd expect that from a narcissist and his inner circle of yes-men. It's truly bizarre to watch complete outsiders do the same. Some of the rationalisation of his most irrational behaviour on this thread alone is utterly bemusing.

First off, Carter Who? Never heard of him.

Secondly do you understand what a loose association the term "adviser" can entail?

Thridly, why is it that whenever someone criticised US foreign policy in relation to the middle-east it's all fair game but when someone criticises US foreign policy in relation to Russia it's considered 2 steps from treason?

Why is it considered "effusive praise" to say one leader is stronger than the other, a charge I'm sure even Obama himself would admit to.

Why were the DNC hacks which were attributed to Putin without any evidence to back it up drummed up to be this mad conspiracy when the Chinese stealing blue prints for US fighter jets probably didn't even make the front page?

I think I know the reason. It's the baby boomers' irrational fear of Russia because of all that Cold War propaganda they were subjected to. It makes for a very effective election stunt if you can draw any connection between Trump and Russia.

I welcome this added scrutiny, but the same posters who claim Trump is a maniac and an idiot who has no clue what he's doing also like to claim he's some sort of undercover Russian operative who definitely knows what he's doing. I wish they would just make up their minds.

oik · 24-09-2016 08:53PM

What do you mean by "bring back"? The US federal government has capital punishment, and no president can dictate to states on their own policies in that regard.

Cruz was signalling to his supporters that he's tough on crime, he's just not as good at it as Trump. The details don't actually matter, people just want to know where you stand on the spectrum when it comes to various issues.

Semi-related, what does Clinton mean when she says "equal pay for equal work" when 1, there's no such thing as equal work, and 2, it's already illegal to discriminate against women?

PopePalpatine · 24-09-2016 09:02PM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

[Trump] can appeal to the Sanders supporters that Cruz could never have.

How? There's pretty much only one area of common ground between the two, and that's opposition to trade deals.

KingBrian2 · 24-09-2016 09:28PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

How? There's pretty much only one area of common ground between the two, and that's opposition to trade deals.

I'm pretty sure he supports an education program fit for all Americans. He spoke a lot about educating American children.

oik · 24-09-2016 09:29PM

How? There's pretty much only one area of common ground between the two, and that's opposition to trade deals.

That's a pretty big piece of common ground.

You may be thinking of younger Bernie voters who were supporting free education for themselves. The older Bernie voters that Trump is courting weren't voting for that.

2016 U.S. Presidential Race Megathread Mark 2.

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