Burka ban

silverharp · 21-09-2016 08:13PM

recedite wrote: »

I agree, but we can only defend against that by having a complete separation of church and state. For example, if you have state funded RC schools, then you cannot stop state funded Islamic schools.
If you have state agencies shutting down at Christmas and Easter, then you have to accede to demands to shut down at Eid.

Unless you can show that these traditional holidays are now cultural as opposed to religious, which is possibly related to Nick Park's earlier argument.

Sunday trading used to be banned, but not Friday trading. That potential inequality has been solved by the state no longer accepting the traditional (religious) reason for the ban on that particular day. Another way to resolve this would have been to ban Sunday and Friday trading (and Saturday, for the Jews) But that's the kind of thinking that gets us state funded Islamic schools, and ultimately Gardai wearing burqas.

if they are quick about it I dont see a problem , no new muslim schools should be allowed to open, there are only 2 now I think. with catholic schools, treat them like pub licences and allow them to be moved about if they want :pac: . there are integration issues with Muslims that obviously arent a problem elsewhere, so it can be dealt with as a stand alone issue
As for seasonal holidays , they are more cultural than religious and as such there is nothing I can think of that christians want where official business needs to be moved about

Absolam · 21-09-2016 11:39PM

I'm religious and support the ban

Yep gotta nip them Muslims getting uppity in the bud... before they open too many schools and there's nothing we can do about them knowing stuff! Maybe now is the time for a 100% Muslim employment initiative? We could show them how much we care about diversity and minorities by making sure they all have jobs somewhere... maybe on farms or something where we could house them all nearby and take care of them.

Peregrinus · 22-09-2016 02:43AM

Yes. You don't need to be able to read or write in order to muck out cowsheds, so the demand for Muslim schoools would evaporate. Problem solved!

smacl · 22-09-2016 07:23AM

I'm religious and support the ban

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes. You don't need to be able to read or write in order to muck out cowsheds, so the demand for Muslim schoools would evaporate. Problem solved!

Given they're already bottom of the list for getting into the Catholic schools that make up the majority of schools in this country, that does indeed seem to be the position of the RC church.

Absolam · 22-09-2016 07:57AM

I'm religious and support the ban

smacl wrote: »

Given they're already bottom of the list for getting into the Catholic schools that make up the majority of schools in this country, that does indeed seem to be the position of the RC church.

Well, I don't think we can hold the Catholic Church responsible for not prefering Muslim students in their schools, but at least they're not advocating not allowing Muslims to have schools at all like Silverharp is :eek:

smacl · 22-09-2016 08:14AM

I'm religious and support the ban

Absolam wrote: »

Well, I don't think we can hold the Catholic Church responsible for not prefering Muslim students in their schools, but at least they're not advocating not allowing Muslims to have schools at all like Silverharp is :eek:

Simply pointing out that the most obvious source of religious discrimination against Muslims in this country is the Catholic church, in terms of school enrolment.

Nick Park · 22-09-2016 08:26AM

smacl wrote: »

Simply pointing out that the most obvious source of religious discrimination against Muslims in this country is the Catholic church, in terms of school enrolment.

No, the most obvious source of religious discrimination is the State which has failed to provide an adequate secular education system, preferring to hand education over to sectarian schools.

silverharp · 22-09-2016 08:26AM

Absolam wrote: »

Well, I don't think we can hold the Catholic Church responsible for not prefering Muslim students in their schools, but at least they're not advocating not allowing Muslims to have schools at all like Silverharp is :eek:

I didnt say that, I said there shouldnt be anymore new religious schools . Ideally i am phrasing it as there should not be anymore NEW religious schools, every new school from here on in should be multi denominational or preferably non.
You are obviously a fan of ghettos and encouraging muslims to distance themselves from the rest of us, I want their kids to mix with non muslim kids to the maximum extent

silverharp · 22-09-2016 08:30AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes. You don't need to be able to read or write in order to muck out cowsheds, so the demand for Muslim schoools would evaporate. Problem solved!

I think everyone should be able to read and write and be able to spell schools correctly as well.

Nick Park · 22-09-2016 08:47AM

silverharp wrote: »

I didnt say that,

I think everyone should be able to read and write and be able to spell schools correctly as well.

But it would be taking it too far to ensure that everyone knows how to use an apostrophe.

Absolam · 22-09-2016 12:58PM

I'm religious and support the ban

smacl wrote: »

Simply pointing out that the most obvious source of religious discrimination against Muslims in this country is the Catholic church, in terms of school enrolment.

Yet they're not saying no new muslim schools should be allowed to open, whilst Silverharp is. That seems a far more aggressive source of religious discrimination against Muslims in this country, in terms of school enrolment.

Absolam · 22-09-2016 01:04PM

I'm religious and support the ban

silverharp wrote: »

I didnt say that, I said there shouldnt be anymore new religious schools . Ideally i am phrasing it as there should not be anymore NEW religious schools, every new school from here on in should be multi denominational or preferably non.

My bad. I was sure you said

silverharp wrote: »

no new muslim schools should be allowed to open

. How exactly is that not advocating not allowing Muslims to have schools ? As for what you think should be or is preferable... I think it should be preferable for parents to retain their right to choose. But maybe that's just me.

silverharp wrote: »

You are obviously a fan of ghettos and encouraging muslims to distance themselves from the rest of us, I want their kids to mix with non muslim kids to the maximum extent

Obviously? That's some perspicacity on you there

I don't think that's something you've observed, I think it's something you've made up. Not so much obviously as fictitiously I think.

silverharp · 22-09-2016 01:40PM

Absolam wrote: »

My bad. I was sure you said . How exactly is that not advocating not allowing Muslims to have schools ? As for what you think should be or is preferable... I think it should be preferable for parents to retain their right to choose. But maybe that's just me.

Obviously? That's some perspicacity on you there I don't think that's something you've observed, I think it's something you've made up. Not so much obviously as fictitiously I think.

not allowing Muslims to have schools at all like Silverharp is

I read that as taking away existing Muslim schools so I refute that.

recedite · 22-09-2016 03:31PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Absolam wrote: »

Yet they're not saying no new muslim schools should be allowed to open, whilst Silverharp is. That seems a far more aggressive source of religious discrimination against Muslims in this country, in terms of school enrolment.

No, your position is the discriminatory one. You advocate discrimination against Muslims in the 90% or thereabouts of schools in this country that are non-Muslim religious schools, while allowing them priority in just two or three of "their own" schools.
Silverharp if I'm not mistaken advocates that they be treated equally in 100% of schools.

Absolam · 23-09-2016 12:53AM

I'm religious and support the ban

silverharp wrote: »

I read that as taking away existing Muslim schools so I refute that.

Hmm. What Muslim school could a child attend if they couldn't get into one of the existing two and create another one. Any at all?

Absolam · 23-09-2016 12:55AM

I'm religious and support the ban

recedite wrote: »

No, your position is the discriminatory one. You advocate discrimination against Muslims in the 90% or thereabouts of schools in this country that are non-Muslim religious schools, while allowing them priority in just two or three of "their own" schools.
Silverharp if I'm not mistaken advocates that they be treated equally in 100% of schools.

I'm pretty sure I didn't advocate any such thing. I think Muslims should be allowed to open as many schools as they like, unlike Silverharp who thinks they shouldn't be allowed to open any.

silverharp · 23-09-2016 09:33AM

Absolam wrote: »

Hmm. What Muslim school could a child attend if they couldn't get into one of the existing two and create another one. Any at all?

the point is, its better for society if they integrate and grow up within the general population, its preferable to catholics saying not with us sonny jim and forcing a kind of herding into the less religious schools, or the kids going to exclusively muslim schools where difference will be a focus.
A single muslim girl for instance in a class of kids with different backgrounds will not be under social pressure to conform to Muslim standards. Take that same girl a have her in a class of muslim kids only and there will be social pressure or school pressure to wear Muslim dress or adopt other forms of Muslim group think

Absolam · 23-09-2016 09:39AM

I'm religious and support the ban

silverharp wrote: »

the point is, its better for society if they integrate and grow up within the general population, its preferable to catholics saying not with us sonny jim and forcing a kind of herding into the less religious schools, or the kids going to exclusively muslim schools where difference will be a focus. A single muslim girl for instance in a class of kids with different backgrounds will not be under social pressure to conform to Muslim standards. Take that same girl a have her in a class of muslim kids only and there will be social pressure or school pressure to wear Muslim dress.

Well, I don't think you're offering us any substantial basis for your opinion on what's better for society beyond the fact that it's your opinion, are you? Many Muslims would say it's better for society if everyone becomes Muslim and follow Sharia Law. Many Christians would say what's better for society is for everyone to follow Jesus. These (including yours) are all very well meaning opinions I'm sure, but I think what's best for society may be a little more complicated that you deciding who is not allowed to have schools. No offence, but you don't offer any reason to think your though process in coming to that decision extends any further than you don't like religious people having schools.... or even religious people choosing to be religious people.

silverharp · 23-09-2016 09:53AM

Absolam wrote: »

Well, I don't think you're offering us any substantial basis for your opinion on what's better for society beyond the fact that it's your opinion, are you? Many Muslims would say it's better for society if everyone becomes Muslim and follow Sharia Law. Many Christians would say what's better for society is for everyone to follow Jesus. These (including yours) are all very well meaning opinions I'm sure, but I think what's best for society may be a little more complicated that you deciding who is not allowed to have schools. No offence, but you don't offer any reason to think your though process in coming to that decision extends any further than you don't like religious people having schools.... or even religious people choosing to be religious people.

You only have to look at Europe and see the problems of non integration so its an opinion based on observation. Muslims kids growing up in an echo chamber of anti-Semitism or actual distrust of the countries they live in and the rest is not to be welcomed. Its best for all concerned if they grow up where some of their ideas can be challenged or be exposed to alternate ways of thinking

Absolam · 23-09-2016 10:07AM

I'm religious and support the ban

silverharp wrote: »

You only have to look at Europe and see the problems of non integration so its an opinion based on observation. Muslims kids growing up in an echo chamber of anti-Semitism or actual distrust of the countries they live in and the rest is not to be welcomed. Its best for all concerned if they grow up where some of their ideas can be challenged or be exposed to alternate ways of thinking

Sorry, where have you observed societies being demonstrably better off because Muslims aren't allowed to have schools?

That societies are more integrated where people choose to integrate is certainly observable, as is the fact that greater unrest occurs when people are forced to appear to integrate; like in France when they banned the wearing of Burqas. You can certainly see that marginalising people in Europe hasn't exactly reaped benefits, and I imagine telling people they aren't allowed to provide the education they want to their children, a Constitutional right, isn't going to make them feel overly 'integrated'... do you really think it will?

silverharp · 23-09-2016 10:23AM

Absolam wrote: »

Sorry, where have you observed societies being demonstrably better off because Muslims aren't allowed to have schools?

That societies are more integrated where people choose to integrate is certainly observable, as is the fact that greater unrest occurs when people are forced to appear to integrate; like in France when they banned the wearing of Burqas. You can certainly see that marginalising people in Europe hasn't exactly reaped benefits, and I imagine telling people they aren't allowed to provide the education they want to their children, a Constitutional right, isn't going to make them feel overly 'integrated'... do you really think it will?

most Muslims in Europe go to standard state schools, Ireland is more a peculiar case where potentially Muslim schools might be easier to open, as the dept seems to be more intent on opening multi denominational schools , Im happy if they run with that.

The UK have had to close down private muslim schools because they were teaching extremist material so there are risks of encouraging separatist education. Im not going to anticipate constitutional issues, the state seems to have a policy of having more inclusive education and that is not unconstitutional

recedite · 23-09-2016 10:26AM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Absolam wrote: »

Sorry, where have you observed societies being demonstrably better off because Muslims aren't allowed to have schools?

In order to demonstrate this, we have to create two identical societies for you, and then stop Muslims from having separate schools in one of them.
I think you are safe enough in issuing that challenge, nobody is going to be able to provide the proof that you "require"

Absolam wrote: »

I think Muslims should be allowed to open as many schools as they like, unlike Silverharp who thinks they shouldn't be allowed to open any.

Maybe they could open an Islamic school beside every RC school in the country.
Its a bit like erecting a sign at the top of a flight of stairs; "disabled people welcome". Its typical preacher type morality; hypocritical tokenism bull$hit.

Your real goal is to be allowed to maintain state funded religious discrimination in RC schools. If achieving that requires that you extend a token welcome to minority religions, so be it.

Absolam · 23-09-2016 11:45PM

I'm religious and support the ban

silverharp wrote: »

most Muslims in Europe go to standard state schools, Ireland is more a peculiar case where potentially Muslim schools might be easier to open, as the dept seems to be more intent on opening multi denominational schools , Im happy if they run with that.

So, no, you can't? Then you actually haven't observed societies being demonstrably better off because Muslims aren't allowed to have schools, and when you said its an opinion based on observation that wasn't true. Good to know.

silverharp wrote: »

The UK have had to close down private muslim schools because they were teaching extremist material so there are risks of encouraging separatist education.

The UK has about 40 Muslim schools (that's 38 more than you'd allow Muslims to have in Ireland), but I don't think they generally teach extremist material, do they? Have you assessed the risk, and can you tell us how much more integrated the Muslim population is as a result of closing the schools?

silverharp wrote: »

Im not going to anticipate constitutional issues, the state seems to have a policy of having more inclusive education and that is not unconstitutional

You'll happily flat out say no new muslim schools should be allowed to open, but won't even acknowledge the rights you trample on by forbidding them? And such an autocratic approach is one you think is better for society.....

KingBrian2 · 23-09-2016 11:50PM

I'm religious and support the ban

Absolam wrote: »

Sorry, where have you observed societies being demonstrably better off because Muslims aren't allowed to have schools?

That societies are more integrated where people choose to integrate is certainly observable, as is the fact that greater unrest occurs when people are forced to appear to integrate; like in France when they banned the wearing of Burqas. You can certainly see that marginalising people in Europe hasn't exactly reaped benefits, and I imagine telling people they aren't allowed to provide the education they want to their children, a Constitutional right, isn't going to make them feel overly 'integrated'... do you really think it will?

I agree that Muslims should be made to feel part of the community. It all goes down to the curriculum. They can't be thought that Jihad is compatible with living in the west and that state and Mosque be fused. It is that which allowed the preachers brainwash the students of Islam across Europe and America today.

Absolam · 23-09-2016 11:53PM

I'm religious and support the ban

recedite wrote: »

In order to demonstrate this, we have to create two identical societies for you, and then stop Muslims from having separate schools in one of them.
I think you are safe enough in issuing that challenge, nobody is going to be able to provide the proof that you "require" .

Silverharp said his position was based on observation. As you say, that was highly improbable, since it's not there to be observed.

recedite wrote: »

Maybe they could open an Islamic school beside every RC school in the country. Its a bit like erecting a sign at the top of a flight of stairs; "disabled people welcome". Its typical preacher type morality; hypocritical tokenism bull$hit.

Maybe they could, and if they wanted to I wouldn't stop them just because you think it's hypocritical tokenism bull$hit. If parents want to have a school that suits their ethos fair play to those that make the effort.

recedite wrote: »

Your real goal is to be allowed to maintain state funded religious discrimination in RC schools. If achieving that requires that you extend a token welcome to minority religions, so be it.

Hmmm. On the one hand, I'd like to see every parent give their children the state funded education they want. On the other, you'd like to see every parent give their children the state funded education you want. I think I can probably guess what way most of those parents will lean...

Absolam · 23-09-2016 11:54PM

I'm religious and support the ban

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I agree that Muslims should be made to feel part of the community. It all goes down to the curriculum. They can't be thought that Jihad is compatible with living in the west and that state and Mosque be fused. It is that which allowed the preachers brainwash the students of Islam across Europe and America today.

I think that Muslims should be allowed, even encouraged, to be part of the wider community. Just not made.

KingBrian2 · 24-09-2016 12:00AM

I'm religious and support the ban

Absolam wrote: »

I think that Muslims should be allowed, even encouraged, to be part of the wider community. Just not made.

Lets not get into an argument over semantics, the point is we have to build trust but we all know that the Imams in the Mosques are providing religious education that was mainstream in the middle ages.

Absolam · 27-09-2016 12:21AM

I'm religious and support the ban

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Lets not get into an argument over semantics, the point is we have to build trust but we all know that the Imams in the Mosques are providing religious education that was mainstream in the middle ages.

I don't have a lot of trust in what 'we all know' I'm afraid... it just seems to turn out to be nonsense a lot of the time. Semantics-wise, well if you're in favour of allowing people to integrate themselves in a multi-cultural society, we're not arguing. If you want to make them part of a community by suppressing their own sense of community (like by telling them what they're allowed wear, or forbidding them to have schools), then I'm less of a fan.

KingBrian2 · 27-09-2016 05:28PM

I'm religious and support the ban

Absolam wrote: »

I don't have a lot of trust in what 'we all know' I'm afraid... it just seems to turn out to be nonsense a lot of the time. Semantics-wise, well if you're in favour of allowing people to integrate themselves in a multi-cultural society, we're not arguing. If you want to make them part of a community by suppressing their own sense of community (like by telling them what they're allowed wear, or forbidding them to have schools), then I'm less of a fan.

As part of a community we all have shared values that are intrinsic to a society. Not everyone shares these values and it tends to be the Muslim community that practice a form of self segregation from the rest of us.

They are not forced to stay here. They can return to their homeland as often the case they spout the dire persecution of their own country leaving out the reasons. Anyone can say they are being persecuted so the genuine cases don't get through.

Absolam · 28-09-2016 12:22AM

I'm religious and support the ban

KingBrian2 wrote: »

As part of a community we all have shared values that are intrinsic to a society. Not everyone shares these values and it tends to be the Muslim community that practice a form of self segregation from the rest of us.

Perhaps we share less values than you think? Look at the abortion debate, and the schools debate, even the what you're allowed to wear debate here on A&A, where those of us born and raised in this community are displaying radically different values. One of the values I feel is (or should be) part of my community is tolerance, and respect for difference. I think people most often keep themselves separate from communities when they feel their differences aren't tolerated or respected... at least in my experience. But perhaps that's not a shared value intrinsic to our society either.

KingBrian2 wrote: »

They are not forced to stay here. They can return to their homeland as often the case they spout the dire persecution of their own country leaving out the reasons. Anyone can say they are being persecuted so the genuine cases don't get through.

No doubt... if they don't like it here they can go back where they came from, but that may not be quite the tolerant inclusive message that is synonymous with the Ireland of a Thousand Welcomes we're so proud of. Still, it's not overly helpful for those who come from here, is it? Surely if they don't like it at least, they have the same right to an opinion as everyone else? I suppose if Silverharp gets his way they wouldn't have any schools and have no idea that they should be treated better, so maybe that's some sort of final solution to the problem...

Burka ban

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