Burka ban

silverharp

Absolam wrote: »

Perhaps we share less values than you think? Look at the abortion debate, and the schools debate, even the what you're allowed to wear debate here on A&A, where those of us born and raised in this community are displaying radically different values. One of the values I feel is (or should be) part of my community is tolerance, and respect for difference. I think people most often keep themselves separate from communities when they feel their differences aren't tolerated or respected... at least in my experience. But perhaps that's not a shared value intrinsic to our society either.

that might be fine within a certain range , but do you not think the more conservative end of Muslims are pretty immune either way about whether you like them or not? My kids go to a school which is quite multinational , loads of difference all good, there is one girl that is vegetarian for religious reasons, cute! and a good mix of catholics and protestants etc and again everyone gets along however there is one muslim girl in my son's year in primary school and get this she is not allowed be friends with any boys in the school. So great its difference but also fk you and your separatist culture, why should I respect a culture that literally finds my son toxic. tolerating intolerance isnt a virtue

Absolam

I'm religious and support the ban

silverharp wrote: »

that might be fine within a certain range , but do you not think the more conservative end of Muslims are pretty immune either way about whether you like them or not? My kids go to a school which is quite multinational , loads of difference all good, there is one girl that is vegetarian for religious reasons, cute! and a good mix of catholics and protestants etc and again everyone gets along however there is one muslim girl in my son's year in primary school and get this she is not allowed be friends with any boys in the school. So great its difference but also fk you and your separatist culture, why should I respect a culture that literally finds my son toxic. tolerating intolerance isnt a virtue

So if they behave within a certain range you find acceptable, then you'll let them have schools? I don't think I even want to know how much you want them to kowtow to your idea of superior culture before you'd let that happen. Though I have an inkling why you might get the impression they're (at least trying to be) immune either way about whether you like them or not.

KingBrian2

I'm religious and support the ban

Absolam wrote: »

Perhaps we share less values than you think? Look at the abortion debate, and the schools debate, even the what you're allowed to wear debate here on A&A, where those of us born and raised in this community are displaying radically different values. One of the values I feel is (or should be) part of my community is tolerance, and respect for difference. I think people most often keep themselves separate from communities when they feel their differences aren't tolerated or respected... at least in my experience. But perhaps that's not a shared value intrinsic to our society either.

No doubt... if they don't like it here they can go back where they came from, but that may not be quite the tolerant inclusive message that is synonymous with the Ireland of a Thousand Welcomes we're so proud of. Still, it's not overly helpful for those who come from here, is it? Surely if they don't like it at least, they have the same right to an opinion as everyone else? I suppose if Silverharp gets his way they wouldn't have any schools and have no idea that they should be treated better, so maybe that's some sort of final solution to the problem...

You can't be friends with these type of people. With abortion you can debate and find a consensus for going forward. Even on the most controversial views like taxation, the role of gvt, membership of the EU, acceptable views. Many Islamic sects are treated as equals when their beliefs are disgusting.

Absolam

I'm religious and support the ban

KingBrian2 wrote: »

You can't be friends with these type of people. With abortion you can debate and find a consensus for going forward. Even on the most controversial views like taxation, the role of gvt, membership of the EU, acceptable views. Many Islamic sects are treated as equals when their beliefs are disgusting.

Would you say you've tried being friends with these type of people? Whether they're the type of people who are part of the community with which I supposedly have shared values yet I disagree with on matters like abortion, schools and permitted clothing, or the type of people who are part of the community and also disagree with my values on worship, what I may eat or drink, and marriage, I've found I can be friends with both.

Perhaps it's your view that other peoples beliefs are disgusting (or your implication that some people should not be treated as equals) that keeps you from making friends?

silverharp

Absolam wrote: »

So if they behave within a certain range you find acceptable, then you'll let them have schools? I don't think I even want to know how much you want them to kowtow to your idea of superior culture before you'd let that happen. Though I have an inkling why you might get the impression they're (at least trying to be) immune either way about whether you like them or not.

as taxpayers and citizens we have to live with them after they leave school so all things being equal its better for everyone else if they are more integrated not less. I didn't bring up "superior" this is about difference more in line with an NI discussion , neither is superior to the other its the artificial lines that are the problem

silverharp

back to the title of the thread

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/switzerland-burqa-ban-swiss-parliament-national-council-draft-law-vote-latest-muslim-veils-walter-a7334631.html

Switzerland moves towards nationwide burqa ban as draft law approved in parliament

Switzerland has moved a step closer to imposing a nationwide burqa ban after politicians approved a draft bill by just one vote.

A new law proposed by the right-wing Swiss People’s Party (SVP) received 88 votes, with 87 against and 10 abstentions in the country’s lower house of parliament on Tuesday. But the plans remain far from coming into force after a previous proposal for a ban on Muslim veils that cover the face was voted down by state representatives at a commission in January.

Samaris

I'm religious and support the ban

I'm really a bit torn on this. I chose "Not religious and do not support the ban", by the way!

I see a lot of reasons for it. I even agree with some of the arguments for it. But there's something in me that rebels at the state mandating that the specific preferred dress of a group of people should be banned. And the more so when I strongly suspect it wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't for the fact that we all have the topic of Muslims up our collective noses thanks to ISIS and their stripe. We're not really bothered by Sikh turbans or Jewish yamulkes. I know there's a difference, the various forms of burkha are a lot more encompassing and I admit I would find it difficult to strike up conversation with someone who appears to be dressed as a black postbox. IS it just that there's a limit to what we'll tolerate (religious jewellery, religious hats or head-coverings), and we've reached it at full-body/face coverings, or is it a reflection of our current worries and insecurity at people associated with this style blowing people up? The latter isn't exactly unreasonable, mind you, but I'm unsure if it's a -good enough- reason to ban a major point in the faith of a lot of people. I'm also quite aware that the Quran encourages modesty, but it's a cultural imposition on Islam to insist on covering women with flowing black sacks, but arguing "well, this isn't actually your religion" is fairly meaningless when it's a deeply held personal belief.

Basically, I entirely accept the point that it's imposed on many women and ingrained into them from childhood (and that this started depressingly recently), but if I was sure that the only women wearing the things were doing so from absolute personal choice and not just because they were raised into believing that they have to, and that banning them won't result in women restricted to the house..I'd be okay with them as an expression of religious freedom.

KingBrian2

I'm religious and support the ban

Samaris wrote: »

I'm really a bit torn on this. I chose "Not religious and do not support the ban", by the way!

I see a lot of reasons for it. I even agree with some of the arguments for it. But there's something in me that rebels at the state mandating that the specific preferred dress of a group of people should be banned. And the more so when I strongly suspect it wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't for the fact that we all have the topic of Muslims up our collective noses thanks to ISIS and their stripe. We're not really bothered by Sikh turbans or Jewish yamulkes. I know there's a difference, the various forms of burkha are a lot more encompassing and I admit I would find it difficult to strike up conversation with someone who appears to be dressed as a black postbox. IS it just that there's a limit to what we'll tolerate (religious jewellery, religious hats or head-coverings), and we've reached it at full-body/face coverings, or is it a reflection of our current worries and insecurity at people associated with this style blowing people up? The latter isn't exactly unreasonable, mind you, but I'm unsure if it's a -good enough- reason to ban a major point in the faith of a lot of people. I'm also quite aware that the Quran encourages modesty, but it's a cultural imposition on Islam to insist on covering women with flowing black sacks, but arguing "well, this isn't actually your religion" is fairly meaningless when it's a deeply held personal belief.

Basically, I entirely accept the point that it's imposed on many women and ingrained into them from childhood (and that this started depressingly recently), but if I was sure that the only women wearing the things were doing so from absolute personal choice and not just because they were raised into believing that they have to, and that banning them won't result in women restricted to the house..I'd be okay with them as an expression of religious freedom.

If women from these parts are going to start wearing religious outfits how would you feel if people wore balaclavas around the town. You'd suspect them of being burglars. We are giving that impression of them as men and women in balaclavas in this country are associated with the IRA, highway men and robbers. It is not encouraged for people to wear balaclavas into banks, schools or churches. This is prejudice yes but it is well founded because it is part of Irish society.

To accept Islam coming into Ireland is also to accept all their practices that are not compatible with this country. Islam has no connection with Ireland and we are not the best to interpret what is an acceptable Muslim or an unacceptable Muslim. That is for the advocates of the religion to decide for.

Ireland was never conquered by Islam. Are relations with Muslim countries are very benign but we don't know that much about their beliefs accept those who bother to research up on them.

Samaris

I'm religious and support the ban

KingBrian2 wrote: »

If women from these parts are going to start wearing religious outfits how would you feel if people wore balaclavas around the town. You'd suspect them of being burglars. We are giving that impression of them as men and women in balaclavas in this country are associated with the IRA, highway men and robbers. It is not encouraged for people to wear balaclavas into banks, schools or churches. This is prejudice yes but it is well founded because it is part of Irish society.

Well yeah, but we're not talking about balaclavas. If we're going to take random items of enveloping clothing, I could start talking about firemen!

The balaclava is specifically associated with Being Nefarious (or being military). It's not in the same ballpark as a yamulke, turban or indeed a burkha, other than that it covers the face.

KingBrian2

I'm religious and support the ban

Samaris wrote: »

Well yeah, but we're not talking about balaclavas. If we're going to take random items of enveloping clothing, I could start talking about firemen!

The balaclava is specifically associated with Being Nefarious (or being military). It's not in the same ballpark as a yamulke, turban or indeed a burkha, other than that it covers the face.

What about those Anonymous people, the guys with the Guy Fawkes mask. If people started to wear them we would quite rightly be suspicious about them.

All i'm saying is that everyone in society has to abide by rules of society and the wearing of the Burka goes against this. It is a religious decree that discriminates against one gender.

Samaris

I'm religious and support the ban

KingBrian2 wrote: »

What about those Anonymous people, the guys with the Guy Fawkes mask. If people started to wear them we would quite rightly be suspicious about them.

All i'm saying is that everyone in society has to abide by rules of society and the wearing of the Burka goes against this. It is a religious decree that discriminates against one gender.

Again you pick something entirely irrelevant. The things you're choosing to equate to burkas are just not equatable. Wearing a balaclava or an Anonymous mask usually means you are up to something, presumably something illegal as you wish to hide your face (although the anon masks are also used for protests, but generally they come under the heading of Mildly Neferious). There IS a perfectly innocent reason for wearing a burka.

There are arguments to be made against the burka, but balaclavas and Anonymous red herring masks aren't some of them.

Absolam

I'm religious and support the ban

silverharp wrote: »

as taxpayers and citizens we have to live with them after they leave school so all things being equal its better for everyone else if they are more integrated not less. I didn't bring up "superior" this is about difference more in line with an NI discussion , neither is superior to the other its the artificial lines that are the problem

Well all things being equal they'd be allowed to have schools like everyone else and be allowed to dress in a fashion they're comfortable with like everyone else. In fact, they'd be allowed pass on and live by their values, like everyone else. What you're proposing is all things not being equal, and I don't think that people who are treated inequitably tend to integrate with those who treat them that way. And you have told us you believe western values are superior to middle eastern values, remember?

Absolam

I'm religious and support the ban

Samaris wrote: »

IS it just that there's a limit to what we'll tolerate (religious jewellery, religious hats or head-coverings), and we've reached it at full-body/face coverings, or is it a reflection of our current worries and insecurity at people associated with this style blowing people up? The latter isn't exactly unreasonable, mind you, but I'm unsure if it's a -good enough- reason to ban a major point in the faith of a lot of people. I'm also quite aware that the Quran encourages modesty, but it's a cultural imposition on Islam to insist on covering women with flowing black sacks, but arguing "well, this isn't actually your religion" is fairly meaningless when it's a deeply held personal belief.

MY own feeling is that two arguments are put forward; first that it oppresses women, and that includes women who claim it doesn't oppress them, because they don't know they're being oppressed. That strikes me as very trite, and I'm not a fan of the 'we're doing it for your own good just don't realise it' argument; if it's really for someone's genuine good it should be possible to provide them the means to understand that so that they can choose to do what's good for them themselves. Or not, if they wish. The second argument is much more insidious; it's not a part of how we behave, so anyone in our place shouldn't be allowed to behave that way. That sort of intolerance of difference, ostensibly backed up by spurious nonsense about security concerns and living together is purely and simply xenophobia regardless of how it's dressed up. We don't need to have experience of a culture, or even to have been conquered by its' adherents to understand that being different isn't the same as being bad.

silverharp

Absolam wrote: »

Well all things being equal they'd be allowed to have schools like everyone else and be allowed to dress in a fashion they're comfortable with like everyone else. In fact, they'd be allowed pass on and live by their values, like everyone else. What you're proposing is all things not being equal, and I don't think that people who are treated inequitably tend to integrate with those who treat them that way. And you have told us you believe western values are superior to middle eastern values, remember?

sure but its not relevant now in Ireland, this is about integrating Muslims as much as possible into Irish society not facilitating the creation of a parallel society. The dept of education just has to run with multidenominational schools running forward, the state funding a Muslim school now would not be an efficient use of resources and would be giving preference to muslims over other groups here who are excluded from catholic schools

cowboyBuilder

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Absolam wrote: »

Well all things being equal they'd be allowed to have schools like everyone else and be allowed to dress in a fashion they're comfortable with like everyone else. In fact, they'd be allowed pass on and live by their values, like everyone else. What you're proposing is all things not being equal, and I don't think that people who are treated inequitably tend to integrate with those who treat them that way. And you have told us you believe western values are superior to middle eastern values, remember?

Well they are superior to Mid East values - clearly they are.

Absolam

I'm religious and support the ban

silverharp wrote: »

sure but its not relevant now in Ireland, this is about integrating Muslims as much as possible into Irish society not facilitating the creation of a parallel society. The dept of education just has to run with multidenominational schools running forward, the state funding a Muslim school now would not be an efficient use of resources and would be giving preference to muslims over other groups here who are excluded from catholic schools

So, your own perspective isn't relevant to the proposal you're putting forward? I find that just a little difficult to believe...

The DoE doesn't have to run with multi denominational schools, and certainly funding a school built by someone else would be a far more efficient use of their resources than building and funding a school; it could even mean funding a number of schools.

Absolam

I'm religious and support the ban

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

Well they are superior to Mid East values - clearly they are.

Well, clearly. Except to those for whom middle eastern values are clearly superior. And those for whom eastern, southern, northern, and other values are clearly superior. In fact, really they're only clearly superior to those who think they are.

silverharp

Absolam wrote: »

So, your own perspective isn't relevant to the proposal you're putting forward? I find that just a little difficult to believe...

The DoE doesn't have to run with multi denominational schools, and certainly funding a school built by someone else would be a far more efficient use of their resources than building and funding a school; it could even mean funding a number of schools.

I'd object if a bunch of Saudi money arrived to build Muslim schools, that would be inviting extremism in. I'd hope the gov. wouldn't allow it

Absolam

I'm religious and support the ban

silverharp wrote: »

I'd object if a bunch of Saudi money arrived to build Muslim schools, that would be inviting extremism in. I'd hope the gov. wouldn't allow it

That's hardly a surprise given you've already said you don't want any Muslim schools built at all.... It sounds like you're just casting about for an excuse after the fact now.

silverharp

Absolam wrote: »

That's hardly a surprise given you've already said you don't want any Muslim schools built at all.... It sounds like you're just casting about for an excuse after the fact now.

Im comfortable with my abstract position as we are not discussing anything in particular that the gov. is planning or has implemented. However my opinion is All new builds going forward should be multidenominal schools and no I am not in favour of any new religious builds of any religion be they Catholic Protestant or Muslim

Hotblack Desiato

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Exactly we have far too many discriminatory schools already. The first thing we should be doing is not allowing any more, then we can start rolling back the existing stock.

Absolam

I'm religious and support the ban

silverharp wrote: »

Im comfortable with my abstract position as we are not discussing anything in particular that the gov. is planning or has implemented. However my opinion is All new builds going forward should be multidenominal schools and no I am not in favour of any new religious builds of any religion be they Catholic Protestant or Muslim

As I said, hardly a surprise. But prohibiting people from building schools to educate their children is both contrary to our Constitution and to my mind contrary to the very principles of freedom on which democracies are founded. Your desire to control people's education, freedom of association, and the very clothes they may wear has far more in common with a fascist State than a democratic one.

Absolam

I'm religious and support the ban

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Exactly we have far too many discriminatory schools already. The first thing we should be doing is not allowing any more, then we can start rolling back the existing stock.

And yet time and again we see parents expressing a preference for the kind of schools you call discriminatory. I think if they want them and use them there's no good reason they shouldn't be allowed to keep them, and if anyone feels there's a balance to be redressed then there's nothing to stop them providing competition. SSI are at least trying to put the option out there so people can make that choice; deliberately removing the possibility of choice is the exact opposite direction to the one our society should be going.

KingBrian2

I'm religious and support the ban

Absolam wrote: »

As I said, hardly a surprise. But prohibiting people from building schools to educate their children is both contrary to our Constitution and to my mind contrary to the very principles of freedom on which democracies are founded. Your desire to control people's education, freedom of association, and the very clothes they may wear has far more in common with a fascist State than a democratic one.

You are advocating for religious segregation and secular education is all about bringing down the barriers between the religions. In their own schools they can teach the children anything they want and the gvt would not know what is going on in them. Shrouded in secrecy and fostering suspicion. Unless their was a standard curriculum that all schools partake in as mandatory education. Gvt inspecting the schools to ensure it meets the requirements of the state.

smacl

I'm religious and support the ban

Absolam wrote: »

Would you say you've tried being friends with these type of people? Whether they're the type of people who are part of the community with which I supposedly have shared values yet I disagree with on matters like abortion, schools and permitted clothing, or the type of people who are part of the community and also disagree with my values on worship, what I may eat or drink, and marriage, I've found I can be friends with both.

While I agree with the sentiment here, regardless of whether or not coercion is a factor, the burqa is not exactly the piece of clothing someone would wear who is keen to make friends. With my kids going through ET schools where most of the local Muslims end up sending their own kids, my experience of Muslims in Ireland, limited as it is, is a good one. While I've no great time for the religion itself, my experience of the people that practise it locally has been that they're as kind, friendly and honest as anyone else you're likely to meet, and they're also as keen as anybody to participate in the community. The girls who are friends of my daughters already struggle enough with hijab, as it visibly marks them as Muslims which isn't always welcome. I think they would all be entirely distraught at the notion of having to wear more restrictive clothing, and if anything would like to be able to enjoy more of the freedom of choice available to their peers.

Absolam

I'm religious and support the ban

KingBrian2 wrote: »

You are advocating for religious segregation and secular education is all about bringing down the barriers between the religions. In their own schools they can teach the children anything they want and the gvt would not know what is going on in them. Shrouded in secrecy and fostering suspicion. Unless their was a standard curriculum that all schools partake in as mandatory education. Gvt inspecting the schools to ensure it meets the requirements of the state.

I'm not, I'm advocating for choice, and I have no objection to secular education being one of the choices. The whole point of that choice is it's not the governments business (other than setting and assuring certain minimum standards) to 'know what is going on in them', that is up to parents, not the government. If that fosters your suspicion, rest assured, there are standard curricula for State schools, and the dept of education does inspect schools to ensure they meet it's standards. You can even read reports online if your suspicions need further assuaging.

Absolam

I'm religious and support the ban

smacl wrote: »

While I agree with the sentiment here, regardless of whether or not coercion is a factor, the burqa is not exactly the piece of clothing someone would wear who is keen to make friends. With my kids going through ET schools where most of the local Muslims end up sending their own kids, my experience of Muslims in Ireland, limited as it is, is a good one. While I've no great time for the religion itself, my experience of the people that practise it locally has been that they're as kind, friendly and honest as anyone else you're likely to meet, and they're also as keen as anybody to participate in the community. The girls who are friends of my daughters already struggle enough with hijab, as it visibly marks them as Muslims which isn't always welcome. I think they would all be entirely distraught at the notion of having to wear more restrictive clothing, and if anything would like to be able to enjoy more of the freedom of choice available to their peers.

Maybe... if there are Muslims who choose not to wear it because they're keen to make friends, I don't see any problem with that, and more than with those who choose to wear because they're not keen to. I've no doubt there are people who will want to be visibly marked as Muslim, the same as Christians and other faiths, and others who wish to be more circumspect. Again, to each their own... telling them they can't is to me as repellent as telling them they must.

KingBrian2

I'm religious and support the ban

Absolam wrote: »

I'm not, I'm advocating for choice, and I have no objection to secular education being one of the choices. The whole point of that choice is it's not the governments business (other than setting and assuring certain minimum standards) to 'know what is going on in them', that is up to parents, not the government. If that fosters your suspicion, rest assured, there are standard curricula for State schools, and the dept of education does inspect schools to ensure they meet it's standards. You can even read reports online if your suspicions need further assuaging.

We saw schools in the UK and elsewhere in Europe been investigated and they are only now finding the extreme Islamism. I'm saying a secular education is far better and should be introduced across Ireland and everywhere. Otherwise we are encouraging the rise of hate preachers.

smacl

I'm religious and support the ban

Absolam wrote: »

I'm not, I'm advocating for choice, and I have no objection to secular education being one of the choices. The whole point of that choice is it's not the governments business (other than setting and assuring certain minimum standards) to 'know what is going on in them', that is up to parents, not the government. If that fosters your suspicion, rest assured, there are standard curricula for State schools, and the dept of education does inspect schools to ensure they meet it's standards. You can even read reports online if your suspicions need further assuaging.

I think for multicultural societies to flourish we need to foster intercultarlism. Promoting self segregation as a means of preserving traditional values leads to social stratification and the type of 'us and them' mentality that is emerging in Europe. We don't need Catholic, Muslim or Atheist schools, we just need schools that treat children of all colour and creed similarly, with respect and without discrimination. Schools with a single religious ethos clearly promote sectarianism, segregation, and all the nastiness that goes with it.

recedite

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Bulgaria has become the latest European country to ban women from wearing veils covering their faces in public.

source