Dairy Chit Chat- Please read Mod note in post #1

stanflt · 18-09-2016 10:17PM

What about fr2380
Positive for milk
Plus 37 kg solids

And positive on type

All on new ebi figures

Great cow family

Dawggone · 18-09-2016 10:26PM

I'm not getting involved...

I've some good Dutch/French/US/Canadian lines here but I'm certainly not an enthusiast.
I'll leave the finer points to you guys.

Production seems to be well covered by Hols... Work on 1. Mobility 2. Solids 3. Fertility.

Btw I'm not breeding replacements anymore. I'm just making an observation on my (limited) experience on genomically tested sires...that's all.

jaymla627 · 19-09-2016 09:05AM

mahoney_j wrote: »

That bull all whitewater +500 kg milk ,negative for sokids ,negative for health ,negative for fertility .nothing would lead me to use him
And the ebi/genomics bashing continues .delievering in a huge way in this herd by end of this year full herd will be genotyped and see no reason to move away from it .

Your basing your assumptions on a randomly generated computer ebi....daughter proven bull who's dams 2nd lactation 305 day average was 8900 kgs at 4.8bf/4.2pr wouldn't call that white water, he's on the extreme scale of bulls I use but he's ideal for crossbred small cows, a heifer calf of this combo is my dream cow fertility solids and milk along with being hard as nails

mahoney_j · 19-09-2016 09:16AM

jaymla627 wrote: »

Your basing your assumptions on a randomly generated computer ebi....daughter proven bull who's dams 2nd lactation 305 day average was 8900 kgs at 4.8bf/4.2pr wouldn't call that white water, he's on the extreme scale of bulls I use but he's ideal for crossbred small cows, a heifer calf of this combo is my dream cow fertility solids and milk along with being hard as nails

Your correct ,serious X off a jex or the likes of low milk Bulls like tih ,but wouldn't touch on any sort of decent volume hol type cow .as for randomly generated computer figure well disagree

jaymla627 · 19-09-2016 09:47AM

mahoney_j wrote: »

Your correct ,serious X off a jex or the likes of low milk Bulls like tih ,but wouldn't touch on any sort of decent volume hol type cow .as for randomly generated computer figure well disagree

The thing I find head scratching if in the morning you went to say buy a bull, you have two choices both bulls have the same sire but different dams.....
Dam a is say edelweiss dam her milk recored figured are as before 8900 litres 2nd lactation 4.8%/4.2%pr dam b is say the high ebI bulls vincents dam who had 3 rd lactation milk recorded figures of 5680 kgs of milk at 3.85% far 3.62% pr.....
Going of the much vaunted ebi system vincents dam will give you a higher solids bull that will apparently hands down outperform the "whitewater" edelweiss dams bull, it really doesn't make any logically sense to me that could be the case but hey what does a simple minded lad like me know the icbf couldn't be wrong

Buford T. Justice XIX · 19-09-2016 10:06AM

jaymla627 wrote: »

The thing I find head scratching if in the morning you went to say buy a bull, you have two choices both bulls have the same sire but different dams.....
Dam a is say edelweiss dam her milk recored figured are as before 8900 litres 2nd lactation 4.8%/4.2%pr dam b is say the high ebI bulls vincents dam who had 3 rd lactation milk recorded figures of 5680 kgs of milk at 3.85% far 3.62% pr.....
Going of the much vaunted ebi system vincents dam will give you a higher solids bull that will apparently hands down outperform the "whitewater" edelweiss dams bull, it really doesn't make any logically sense to me that could be the case but hey what does a simple minded lad like me know the icbf couldn't be wrong

EBI is calculated across the entire industry so it should show the average improvement/disimprovement that a bull will cause across a range of farm types and systems and farmers.

For me, the big success of EBI is the continued improvement of days in milk and there is a whole lot more to do in that regard. It probably isn't a higher priority on a farm with 2 calving periods but Kerry had little/no winter milk bonuses so an animal HAS to calve in spring and go back in calf again to calve down every 365 days. We have practically no option to produce winter milk so a late calving cow will be culled. The high output cow above would do well to stay in a simple grass to milk system for a few years and would probably be culled after 2 calvings. The second cow would be a much better bet for grass to milk as she wouldn't be pushed as much to get the extra DM intake that the first cow would need to stay in the herd.

stanflt · 19-09-2016 10:08AM

jaymla627 wrote: »

The thing I find head scratching if in the morning you went to say buy a bull, you have two choices both bulls have the same sire but different dams.....
Dam a is say edelweiss dam her milk recored figured are as before 8900 litres 2nd lactation 4.8%/4.2%pr dam b is say the high ebI bulls vincents dam who had 3 rd lactation milk recorded figures of 5680 kgs of milk at 3.85% far 3.62% pr.....
Going of the much vaunted ebi system vincents dam will give you a higher solids bull that will apparently hands down outperform the "whitewater" edelweiss dams bull, it really doesn't make any logically sense to me that could be the case but hey what does a simple minded lad like me know the icbf couldn't be wrong

Edelweiss dam only ever calved once and this is her lactation details are no where near what you mentioned above

blackdog1 · 19-09-2016 10:23AM

Buford T. Justice V wrote:

For me, the big success of EBI is the continued improvement of days in milk and there is a whole lot more to do in that regard. It probably isn't a higher priority on a farm with 2 calving periods but Kerry had little/no winter milk bonuses so an animal HAS to calve in spring and go back in calf again to calve down every 365 days. We have practically no option to produce winter milk so a late calving cow will be culled. The high output cow above would do well to stay in a simple grass to milk system for a few years and would probably be culled after 2 calvings. The second cow would be a much better bet for grass to milk as she wouldn't be pushed as much to get the extra DM intake that the first cow would need to stay in the herd.

Your right and your wrong. If you breed a high producing bull to a low producing cow you should have no problem with a grass based system. If you breed to a higher producing cow you'll just have to feed more. Again not a problem. I've seen edelweiss heifers and they are crackers and according to French farmers I know they are doing the business. They're no milking cows in Ireland yet so those figures will probably go up when he gets a proof here. I find in general foreign Bulls get lower ebi to start and generally improve whereas Irish tend to get higher genomic ebi and then go down a bit.

blackdog1 · 19-09-2016 12:12PM

stanflt wrote:

Edelweiss dam only ever calved once and this is her lactation details are no where near what you mentioned above

Very common in France with excellent cows. They usually put them on a flushing programme. I'd be surprised if a cow that good calves again...

Buford T. Justice XIX · 19-09-2016 12:14PM

blackdog1 wrote: »

Your right and your wrong. If you breed a high producing bull to a low producing cow you should have no problem with a grass based system. If you breed to a higher producing cow you'll just have to feed more. Again not a problem. I've seen edelweiss heifers and they are crackers and according to French farmers I know they are doing the business. They're no milking cows in Ireland yet so those figures will probably go up when he gets a proof here. I find in general foreign Bulls get lower ebi to start and generally improve whereas Irish tend to get higher genomic ebi and then go down a bit.

That's the nub of the problem.

Most farmers in the country are nowhere near good enough grassland managers to go down the route of producing cows that need a lot of DMI to produce and go in calf. Lacking in P,K and lime, most grassland wouldn't produce even 10t DM/ha, never mind the 15t and upwards that a minority of farmers are doing.

And an added bonus of those high tonnage grasslands is the much higher ME levels in the grass when fed to animals. Instead, farmers would have to feed higher levels of ration to those cows taking them towards uneconomical levels of feeding to keep those cows in the herd.

The EBI system suits the vast majority of farmers in the country with a small minority being better served by using those high input/high output genetics.

freedominacup · 19-09-2016 01:15PM

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

That's the nub of the problem.

Most farmers in the country are nowhere near good enough grassland managers to go down the route of producing cows that need a lot of DMI to produce and go in calf. Lacking in P,K and lime, most grassland wouldn't produce even 10t DM/ha, never mind the 15t and upwards that a minority of farmers are doing.

And an added bonus of those high tonnage grasslands is the much higher ME levels in the grass when fed to animals. Instead, farmers would have to feed higher levels of ration to those cows taking them towards uneconomical levels of feeding to keep those cows in the herd.

The EBI system suits the vast majority of farmers in the country with a small minority being better served by using those high input/high output genetics.

The green cert in various iterations is around long enough that the first cohorts to get it are now drawing the pension. Why aren't the skills more widely available.

stanflt · 19-09-2016 01:22PM

blackdog1 wrote: »

Very common in France with excellent cows. They usually put them on a flushing programme. I'd be surprised if a cow that good calves again...

Excellent cow??? Did one lactation- had a falsified second lactation with no calving records???!!

Lasted one yr- has no other offspring so if she was flushed it would show up as an embryo transfer but no data exists- at least ebi uses real data

Waiting on jay for an answer

blackdog1 · 19-09-2016 01:37PM

stanflt wrote:

Excellent cow??? Did one lactation- had a falsified second lactation with no calving records???!!

Are you saying the French who have one of the biggest and best breeding programmes in the World falsified information..... I'd be very surprised.

stanflt wrote:

Lasted one yr- has no other offspring so if she was flushed it would show up as an embryo transfer but no data exists- at least ebi uses real data

That's assuming icbf have all the information. You'll have to go to the ploughing and ask a Eurogene rep.

stanflt · 19-09-2016 01:44PM

blackdog1 wrote: »

Are you saying the French who have one of the biggest and best breeding programmes in the World falsified information..... I'd be very surprised.

That's assuming icbf have all the information. You'll have to go to the ploughing and ask a Eurogene rep.

its not icbf data

its ihfa data

stanflt · 19-09-2016 01:46PM

blackdog1 wrote: »

Are you saying the French who have one of the biggest and best breeding programmes in the World falsified information..... I'd be very surprised.

That's assuming icbf have all the information. You'll have to go to the ploughing and ask a Eurogene rep.

look the dam up yourself

Buford T. Justice XIX · 19-09-2016 01:48PM

freedominacup wrote: »

The green cert in various iterations is around long enough that the first cohorts to get it are now drawing the pension. Why aren't the skills more widely available.

That's the question, isn't it.

Many continue on doing the same things they have always done, they're paying the bills and are happy enough with that and are fiercely resistant to change.

Many are older farmers who can draw enough to live on and are content. Many are younger farmers working off farm and happy enough if the farm breaks even as they have other income.

Older lads like myself just starting to catch up (or try to) with the top lads.

We are lucky to have an organisation like Teagasc to drive the knowledge base in improving grassland management but it surely hasn't been avoiding your notice that many, many on here, the vast majority younger than the average farmer, have a resistance built up to accepting anything that Teagasc or the Farmers Journal promote as well.

Look, the knowledge is out there but I would question the desire of many to find it or use it. Jaysus, I'm no textbook farmer by any degree but I admit I have been slow at times to put the knowledge to use and I would be keen to progress the farm.

Discussion groups will work for a lot and peer pressure will work for some more but it's up to everyone to find their own route to improvement and a lot of those routes may not include the only structure in place today to pass on knowledge, the discussion group. What that may be, I have no idea but I know a lot of farmers would be intimidated by the results of the best or loudest in a group and just stay quiet.

Ah bugger, that's longer than I meant when I started and I better go do some stroke of work again before school runs. I just don't know is the answer, freedom.

blackdog1 · 19-09-2016 01:49PM

stanflt wrote:

its not icbf data

stanflt wrote:

its ihfa data

It doesn't really matter now anyway Stan....the bull is proven now. He has thousands of daughters in France and that information will be way more useful than the mothers.

stanflt · 19-09-2016 01:53PM

blackdog1 wrote: »

It doesn't really matter now anyway Stan....the bull is proven now. He has thousands of daughters in France and that information will be way more useful than the mothers.

yes but ye all are so quick to blame icbf and claim this and that

one thing for sure is at least their data is transperent

all info on bulls can be backed up unlike foreign bulls

jaymla627 · 19-09-2016 02:09PM

stanflt wrote: »

yes but ye all are so quick to blame icbf and claim this and that

one thing for sure is at least their data is transperent

all info on bulls can be backed up unlike foreign bulls

Your claim about edelweiss is rocky to be fair, just looked up laurelhill classics dams details and she is down as only having completed 3 lactactions, she was sold in her 4th lactation in the dispersal sale of that herd as incalf and projected to do 12000kgs in that lactation back in 2013....
Best get on to your buddies in the ihfa to update their data bases, may ask my eurogene rep about it to, best not to slander companies unless your 100% sure of the facts

blackdog1 · 19-09-2016 02:16PM

stanflt wrote:

yes but ye all are so quick to blame icbf and claim this and that

I'm a buyer your a seller your going to defend them even if they make mistakes. Most of us are very happy with the work icbf does but we don't think they are infallible.

stanflt wrote:

one thing for sure is at least their data is transperent

Most countries data is transparent. I don't know where you get this idea from.

stanflt wrote:

all info on bulls can be backed up unlike foreign bulls

Again don't understand this statement. Proven Bulls are proven Bulls. Figures back this up. Genomic bulls can't be backed up until they get a proof... Foreign or domestic.

stanflt · 19-09-2016 02:18PM

jaymla627 wrote: »

Your claim about edelweiss is rocky to be fair, just looked up laurelhill classics dams details and she is down as only having completed 3 lactactions, she was sold in her 4th lactation in the dispersal sale of that herd as incalf and projected to do 12000kgs in that lactation back in 2013....
Best get on to your buddies in the ihfa to update their data bases, may ask my eurogene rep about it to, best not to slander companies unless your 100% sure of the facts

where was she sold to- i could look up the old sales cateloq

stanflt · 19-09-2016 02:27PM

blackdog1 wrote: »

I'm a buyer your a seller your going to defend them even if they make mistakes. Most of us are very happy with the work icbf does but we don't think they are infallible.

Most countries data is transparent. I don't know where you get this idea from.

Again don't understand this statement. Proven Bulls are proven Bulls. Figures back this up. Genomic bulls can't be backed up until they get a proof... Foreign or domestic.

when you use a foreign bull and his milk figures bear no resemplance to his data

blackdog1 · 19-09-2016 02:34PM

stanflt wrote:

when you use a foreign bull and his milk figures bear no resemplance to his data

That's only if you use the countries own data. Icbf converts it to suit Irish system. The data is correct for that country but not ours. Take edelweiss he's +800 kg of milk in France and 2.4 protein. Which is correct for a French farmer in France. Icbf take that data and convert it to be correct on Irish farms based on past experience with French bulls. So he ends up with +500kg milk +0.01 protein. Now this could go up or down depending on how his Irish daughters milk.

jaymla627 · 19-09-2016 03:49PM

stanflt wrote: »

where was she sold to- i could look up the old sales cateloq

Cyril and martin Millar coleraine county londonderry her six month old daughter was sold at same sale for north of 4000 euro and surprise surprise she doesn't show up as being in existence on the ihfa database, this cow like edelweiss mother apparently only had one calf, pretty piss poor database by the looks of it

stanflt · 19-09-2016 03:56PM

jaymla627 wrote: »

Cyril and martin Millar coleraine county londonderry her six month old daughter was sold at same sale for north of 4000 euro and surprise surprise she doesn't show up as being in existence on the ihfa database, this cow like edelweiss mother apparently only had one calf, pretty piss poor database by the looks of it

Yeah database not the greatest- missing data like that would put me off a bull- I'm sure others would be put off also

Checked French bull figures and can't see any data for dam- she may have been sold out of the country

There should be cross border data shared to give us proper data

freedominacup · 19-09-2016 06:16PM

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

That's the question, isn't it.

Many continue on doing the same things they have always done, they're paying the bills and are happy enough with that and are fiercely resistant to change.

Many are older farmers who can draw enough to live on and are content. Many are younger farmers working off farm and happy enough if the farm breaks even as they have other income.

Older lads like myself just starting to catch up (or try to) with the top lads.

We are lucky to have an organisation like Teagasc to drive the knowledge base in improving grassland management but it surely hasn't been avoiding your notice that many, many on here, the vast majority younger than the average farmer, have a resistance built up to accepting anything that Teagasc or the Farmers Journal promote as well.

Look, the knowledge is out there but I would question the desire of many to find it or use it. Jaysus, I'm no textbook farmer by any degree but I admit I have been slow at times to put the knowledge to use and I would be keen to progress the farm.

Discussion groups will work for a lot and peer pressure will work for some more but it's up to everyone to find their own route to improvement and a lot of those routes may not include the only structure in place today to pass on knowledge, the discussion group. What that may be, I have no idea but I know a lot of farmers would be intimidated by the results of the best or loudest in a group and just stay quiet.

Ah bugger, that's longer than I meant when I started and I better go do some stroke of work again before school runs. I just don't know is the answer, freedom.

At the end of the day dairy cow nutrition is pretty straightforward. Junior cert maths and the ability to read a few tables of requirements is all that's needed but it's constantly portrayed as rocket science by teagasc and the ifj not to mention the myriad of consultants and feed company nutritionists that are getting fat on farmers lack of knowledge in this area. Teagasc have to accept a deal of the blame for this as they were charged with training and upskilling us for the past half century.

Dawggone · 19-09-2016 06:55PM

freedominacup wrote: »

At the end of the day dairy cow nutrition is pretty straightforward. Junior cert maths and the ability to read a few tables of requirements is all that's needed but it's constantly portrayed as rocket science by teagasc and the ifj not to mention the myriad of consultants and feed company nutritionists that are getting fat on farmers lack of knowledge in this area. Teagasc have to accept a deal of the blame for this as they were charged with training and upskilling us for the past half century.

Mega +1.

yosemitesam1 · 19-09-2016 07:27PM

freedominacup wrote: »

At the end of the day dairy cow nutrition is pretty straightforward. Junior cert maths and the ability to read a few tables of requirements is all that's needed but it's constantly portrayed as rocket science by teagasc and the ifj not to mention the myriad of consultants and feed company nutritionists that are getting fat on farmers lack of knowledge in this area. Teagasc have to accept a deal of the blame for this as they were charged with training and upskilling us for the past half century.

A good part of the problem is its a case of the blind leading the blind, I wouldn't have considered any lecturer's I came across in ag college to be an expert, it was literally a case of a lad got his ag degree and either started teaching straight away or did a bit of filling in forms for a while first.

freedominacup · 19-09-2016 07:32PM

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

A good part of the problem is its a case of the blind leading the blind, I wouldn't have considered any lecturer's I came across in ag college to be an expert, it was literally a case of a lad got his ag degree and either started teaching straight away or did a bit of filling in forms for a while first.

Not a huge amount of expertise needed. Anyone who did an ACP ag degree should have a comprehensive knowledge of the topic. Most ag advisors would have this background.

Dawggone · 19-09-2016 07:46PM

freedominacup wrote: »

Not a huge amount of expertise needed. Anyone who did an ACP ag degree should have a comprehensive knowledge of the topic. Most ag advisors would have this background.

It's not in the interest of the feed industry.

The magic of the nutritionist is akin to shamanism.

" Double double boil and trouble
fire burn, and cauldron bubble"

Dairy Chit Chat- Please read Mod note in post #1

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