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Are face recognition clocking in machines Legal?

24

Comments

  • #32
    Pawwed Rig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,451 ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Walter2016 wrote: »
    Usually the only people who have a problem with something like this are those with something to hide.

    Would you be happy with a camera in your house so you could be monitored?


  • #33
    Kings Inns or bust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 631 ✭✭✭Kings Inns or bust


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Would you be happy with a camera in your house so you could be monitored?

    God no I've far too much to hide!

    (Please don't let my silly jokes detract from the seriousness of your point or the naivety of the one you quoted.)


  • #34
    Kings Inns or bust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 631 ✭✭✭Kings Inns or bust


    dev100 wrote: »
    Why ?

    The prevention of fraud I would imagine. I can't help thinking seeing that scene in Demolition Man though... urrrgh.


  • #35
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Your retinal or fingerprint data may come to several kilobytes, however after it goes through the hashing algorithm it might only be 128 bytes. There is no way to recover the original data from this small amount of data.

    And who guarantees the software doesn't store the raw images as well ?

    Is the system connected to the internet in any way ?

    Is it connected to any computer that has usb slots ( or simliar etc) or is connected to the internet in any way ?

    Is there a usb slot ( or anything similar etc ) on the system ?


  • #36
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Don't most new phones have fingerprint unlocking? Would you refuse to buy a phone based on this? I really don't see what the big deal is, other systems can be easily abused, this method is specific and particular to each person and limits the employees ability to abuse the clock in system.

    Some of the posts here say it is overkill and an abuse of power, but presumably it would not be needed if current systems were not being abused.


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  • #37
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,573 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    gctest50 wrote: »
    TheChizler wrote: »
    Your retinal or fingerprint data may come to several kilobytes, however after it goes through the hashing algorithm it might only be 128 bytes. There is no way to recover the original data from this small amount of data.

    And who guarantees the software doesn't store the raw images as well ?
    The threat of that software company never making a sale again if they did the exact opposite of what they claimed and mishandled personal information in this way. Also the threat of the DPC and legal liability. Like all data an employer keeps on you.


  • #38
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    TheChizler wrote: »
    The threat of that software company never making a sale again if they did the exact opposite of what they claimed and mishandled personal information in this way. Also the threat of the DPC and legal liability. Like all data an employer keeps on you.

    There was a previous thread on this a year or two ago, a software designer who worked on the design of these types of biometric clock in systems posted that it was impossible even for the software company who made the system to reproduce a workable fingerprint/retina scan from the system installed.


  • #39
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,573 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Yup. Practically impossible. Technically with enough processing power (I'm talking years with today's fastest supercomputers) you might be able to recreate a scan that would match the key, but it wouldn't be your print. Like many locks can be opened by one master key, but you couldn't make the master key by examining any one lock.


  • #40
    goz83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,035 ✭✭✭goz83


    OP, just get your clock out buddy to put on a face mask of you and a latex copy of your finger print.


  • #41
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,787 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Walter2016 wrote: »

    Usually the only people who have a problem with something like this are those with something to hide.

    That is the type of bullcrap statement that is used to ram privacy restricting legislation through governments


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  • #42
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,787 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Yup. Practically impossible. Technically with enough processing power (I'm talking years with today's fastest supercomputers) you might be able to recreate a scan that would match the key, but it wouldn't be your print. Like many locks can be opened by one master key, but you couldn't make the master key by examining any one lock.

    And what about software/hardeware weak points before encryprion?


  • #43
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,573 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Deleted User wrote: »
    TheChizler wrote: »
    Yup. Practically impossible. Technically with enough processing power (I'm talking years with today's fastest supercomputers) you might be able to recreate a scan that would match the key, but it wouldn't be your print. Like many locks can be opened by one master key, but you couldn't make the master key by examining any one lock.

    And what about software/hardeware weak points before encryprion?
    How do you mean? Some hacker coming in and getting the image directly from the scanner? I think if you worry about this kind of thing logically you have to worry about someone snooping around your office lifting your fingerprint directly from your mug.


  • #44
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    TheChizler wrote: »
    The threat of that software company never making a sale again if they did the exact opposite of what they claimed and mishandled personal information in this way. Also the threat of the DPC and legal liability. Like all data an employer keeps on you.


    The threat of prosecution/jail etc didn't stop Jimmy Saville now did it ?


  • #45
    harr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭harr


    Most work places would have cctv which more than likely would record your coming and goings anyway ....and that footage would be stored locally or cloud based servers ....do you also have a problem with that...
    As mentioned the only people who would have a problem with such a system would be people taking the piss with the current clock in process...this type of identification will be very normal in a few years...even my current gym you can only gain access by thumb print which is linked to your photo on the gyms computer screen....


  • #46
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    TheChizler wrote: »
    How do you mean? Some hacker coming in and getting the image directly from the scanner? I think if you worry about this kind of thing logically you have to worry about someone snooping around your office living your fingerprint directly from your mug.

    If I remember from previous thread, an image is not taken of either fingerprint nor retina, the software just identifies a couple of specific markers, not the whole identifiable field/image.


  • #47
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    gctest50 wrote: »
    The threat of prosecution/jail etc didn't stop Jimmy Saville now did it ?

    Paedophilia v clock in systems, that's a huge jump.


  • #48
    K.Flyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    Driving Ĺicences, Passports, SW Cards, Club Memberships etc etc. Your information is out there on all their systems, so why the paranoia about an advanced form of clocking in, they are all as secure / vulnerable as each other.


  • #49
    joeguevara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,255 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    The answer to the question is that they can't mandatorily impose it on you. They can have it but if you opt out they must have an alternative less invasive way of clocking you in like clock in cards....that is unless there is a legitimate (burden of this is very high) reason to have a biometric clock in system.


  • #50
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    joeguevara wrote: »
    The answer to the question is that they can't mandatorily impose it on you. They can have it but if you opt out they must have an alternative less invasive way of clocking you in like clock in cards....that is unless there is a legitimate (burden of this is very high) reason to have a biometric clock in system.

    A post like that always needs a link to definitively back it up, this will be a short thread if you can provide that link.

    This is the link I could find about it, it pretty much says that if the employer can show it is necessary, it is not illegal and they can use it. The op hasn't given those details so as far as we know, it is not illegal.

    https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Biometrics-in-the-workplace-/244.htm


  • #51
    harr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭harr


    joeguevara wrote: »
    The answer to the question is that they can't mandatorily impose it on you. They can have it but if you opt out they must have an alternative less invasive way of clocking you in like clock in cards....that is unless there is a legitimate (burden of this is very high) reason to have a biometric clock in system.
    Of course you don't have to use it but good luck getting paid your wages when they don't have any records of you being in work...and no they don't have to offer anybody a less invasive way of clocking in...the business in question could have any number of reasons as to why they need to change the clock machines...ffs it's only a clock in machine...op should be happy they have a job to clock into...


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  • #52
    K.Flyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    joeguevara wrote: »
    The answer to the question is that they can't mandatorily impose it on you. They can have it but if you opt out they must have an alternative less invasive way of clocking you in like clock in cards....that is unless there is a legitimate (burden of this is very high) reason to have a biometric clock in system.

    Clock in cards have proven to be a very weak method of monitoring employee's work hours due to it being a system that is easy to abuse (buddy-clocking).
    This is why more and more companies are moving away from the more traditional clock in / out systems.
    The legitimate reason will be that a company only has to cite that they they believe that there are cases of buddy-clocking going on and that they want to introduce a clock in system that eliminates the practice.
    I would imagine that objecting to it would only give rise to suspicion.


  • #53
    screamer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,193 ✭✭✭screamer


    Not illegal AFAIK, and if the employer is being ripped off by employees scamming the clocking system, it's legitimate. I used to work in a large company where people worked weekends, and some of them actually clocked in and then climbed out the windows and came back through the windows and clocked out at home time, and people clocking others in and out was rife. It annoyed those of us who worked our hours to no end, and so if a biometric system stops that sort of thing, it'd be great for morale in the long run, and as the old saying goes, nothing to hide, nothing to fear.


  • #54
    harr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭harr


    screamer wrote: »
    Not illegal AFAIK, and if the employer is being ripped off by employees scamming the clocking system, it's legitimate. I used to work in a large company where people worked weekends, and some of them actually clocked in and then climbed out the windows and came back through the windows and clocked out at home time, and people clocking others in and out was rife. It annoyed those of us who worked our hours to no end, and so if a biometric system stops that sort of thing, it'd be great for morale in the long run, and as the old saying goes, nothing to hide, nothing to fear.
    Happened same place I worked...fitters would be on call for full weekends and they would clock in on a Saturday and feck off home for a few hours and give a colleague there pager ...so low behold fingerprint scanner introduced...union not happy and fought it but company proved legitimate reason to use it... investigations later revealed the two main people involved in the scam were the two union reps...


  • #55
    wush06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 696 ✭✭✭wush06


    My job also installed this equipment lately but we have not used it, but I imagine it's going to be soon.
    One of my problems is knackers coming out of the toilet and not washing there hands and then they want me to put my fingers on it after them and by god the amount of them that don't wash there hands is shocking ��������


  • #56
    appfry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭appfry


    If you thank thats bad ...
    at my place they log the mouse movements and typing on everyones pc.
    They track EVERYTHING you do.


  • #57
    appfry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭appfry


    And thats without ever having told the staff in general.


  • #58
    Walter2016
    Closed Accounts Posts: 522 ✭✭✭Walter2016


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Would you be happy with a camera in your house so you could be monitored?

    Do you understand the thread?

    "workplace" - where the op works.

    Usually replies in threads are to do with the subject matter.


  • #59
    joeguevara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,255 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    harr wrote: »
    Of course you don't have to use it but good luck getting paid your wages when they don't have any records of you being in work...and no they don't have to offer anybody a less invasive way of clocking in...the business in question could have any number of reasons as to why they need to change the clock machines...ffs it's only a clock in machine...op should be happy they have a job to clock into...

    Sure don't let the law get in the way of your rant....unless there is very specific reasons not to have a less invasive way, and as I said the burden is very high on that, they have to offer an alternative....workplaces have been convicted for this reason....and biometric scanning is not just a clocking in machine. If the company has legitimate reasons then they can use it.


  • #60
    harr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭harr


    joeguevara wrote: »
    Sure don't let the law get in the way of your rant....unless there is very specific reasons not to have a less invasive way, and as I said the burden is very high on that, they have to offer an alternative....workplaces have been convicted for this reason....and biometric scanning is not just a clocking in machine. If the company has legitimate reasons then they can use it.
    What law give us a link ....
    Very easy for a company to prove they need it...


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  • #61
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,573 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    davo10 wrote: »
    TheChizler wrote: »
    How do you mean? Some hacker coming in and getting the image directly from the scanner? I think if you worry about this kind of thing logically you have to worry about someone snooping around your office living your fingerprint directly from your mug.

    If I remember from previous thread, an image is not taken of either fingerprint nor retina, the software just identifies a couple of specific markers, not the whole identifiable field/image.
    Hence why I'm asking what the worry is.


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