Are face recognition clocking in machines Legal?

For ever odd

Hi guys,
My workplace are introducing a face recognition (eye scanner) clock in clock out system for time keeping purposes, with a finger print taken as a back up system (finger print scanner).

Is this legal? Do I have the right to decline?

Thanks in advance, as I cannot provide anymore details other than it is not a security issue.

GreatDefector

For ever odd wrote: »

Hi guys,
My workplace are introducing a face recognition (eye scanner) clock in clock out system for time keeping purposes, with a finger print taken as a back up system (finger print scanner).

Is this legal? Do I have the right to decline?

Thanks in advance, as I cannot provide anymore details other than it not a security issue.

No idea about legal but it shows complete and utter lack of trust if it's just for timekeeping

If it's to give you and only you access to a vault? Different story

well spoken man

Amazon?????

durtybit

For ever odd wrote: »

Hi guys,
My workplace are introducing a face recognition (eye scanner) clock in clock out system for time keeping purposes, with a finger print taken as a back up system (finger print scanner).

Is this legal? Do I have the right to decline?

Thanks in advance, as I cannot provide anymore details other than it is not a security issue.

You can decline yes, but they can also decline to pay you.

gman2k

Have a read here
https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Biometrics-in-the-workplace-/244.htm

and here is a case study
https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Case-Studies-2008/c/732.htm#12

Grolschevik

It depends. Do you work for Cyberdyne Systems?

D.24

My wife is a HR manager and she has the same opinion as dirtybit, you can refuse but as the eye scanner is used to calculate your hours your employer could argue they don't have any record of hours worked. Sadly it's a sign of the times...

howamidifferent

Just out of curiosity what's the problem with this if it's just a clock in system? Personally I wouldn't have an issue with biometric systems. Not trying to be controversial just genuinely curious.

franknottaken

The data stored in these devices in general made up of a string of numbers....something like 10101010101 for example. An image of a finger print or your face is not actually saved anywhere.

markfinn

howamidifferent wrote: »

Just out of curiosity what's the problem with this if it's just a clock in system? Personally I wouldn't have an issue with biometric systems. Not trying to be controversial just genuinely curious.

For me the problem would be the result when the system is inevitably connected to the internet and immediately cracked.

Generally if any HR database becomes public knowledge it's bad, but a few password changes, bank account resets etc later it;'s mostly good.

How do you go about getting new fingerprints/ facial structure after this one goes public? You know the majority of companies are not going to work from hashes and will have the biometric base data sets saved in files named by employee.

TheChizler

It would only be a very careless and incompetent company that uses a system that stores data that your actual fingerprint or retinal scan could be derived from. Most likely your data is used to create a variant of a cryptographic hash which could only verify that the same finger/eye was presented as before. If it was stolen all it could do is verify your finger/eye if you presented them to the hacker.

Did the employer provide any information on the system to be used?

FobleAsNuck

eye scan and face recognition are completely different things

Aye Bosun

TheChizler wrote: »

It would only be a very careless and incompetent company that uses a system that stores data that your actual fingerprint or retinal scan could be derived from. Most likely your data is used to create a variant of a cryptographic hash which could only verify that the same finger/eye was presented as before. If it was stolen all it could do is verify your finger/eye if you presented them to the hacker.

Did the employer provide any information on the system to be used?

I manage a biometric access system for finger prints. As an above poster mentioned no actual image of your finger print is stored, it is converted to an algorithm and stored as a series of numbers eg. 01010101011
The data cannot be used for any type of forensic purposes.

For ever odd

durtybit wrote: »

You can decline yes, but they can also decline to pay you.

My wife is a HR manager and she has the same opinion as dirtybit, you can refuse but as the eye scanner is used to calculate your hours your employer could argue they don't have any record of hours worked. Sadly it's a sign of the times...

Thanks, but it does sound a bit like bullyboy tactics.

As regards the other posts- I am only interested in the legality of the system, not the various mechanics of it.

rock22

Aye Bosun wrote: »

I manage a biometric access system for finger prints. As an above poster mentioned no actual image of your finger print is stored, it is converted to an algorithm and stored as a series of numbers eg. 01010101011
The data cannot be used for any type of forensic purposes.

All data stored digitally is stored as a series of binary digits.
"converted to an algorithm" makes no sense. Would you care to explain what the algorithm addresses?
Any database can be accessed by authorities for forensic purposes on order of the courts.

harr

For ever odd wrote: »

Thanks, but it does sound a bit like bullyboy tactics.

As regards the other posts- I am only interested in the legality of the system, not the various mechanics of it.

Don't think it's a legal issue,I have worked in a few companies with fingerprint log in systems and have seen it a good number of times in other firms where I used to do contract work...as others have said it's just a number connected to your finger print....the main reason I have seen employers using this system is to stop people clocking each other in and out...haven't seen a facial recognition system yet or an Iris scan yet for that Matter...

TheChizler

rock22 wrote: »

Aye Bosun wrote: »

I manage a biometric access system for finger prints. As an above poster mentioned no actual image of your finger print is stored, it is converted to an algorithm and stored as a series of numbers eg. 01010101011
The data cannot be used for any type of forensic purposes.

All data stored digitally is stored as a series of binary digits.
"converted to an algorithm" makes no sense. Would you care to explain what the algorithm addresses?
Any database can be accessed by authorities for forensic purposes on order of the courts.

Your retinal or fingerprint data may come to several kilobytes, however after it goes through the hashing algorithm it might only be 128 bytes. There is no way to recover the original data from this small amount of data.

listermint

Sounds like ridiculous overkill, but it depends on the type of work you are in.

If it's sensitive then I suppose it warrants checks and balances.

If it's a shop or call centre its pure laughable,and some IT provider has just made a sale laughing to the bank.

hullaballoo

listermint wrote: »

Sounds like ridiculous overkill, but it depends on the type of work you are in.

If it's sensitive then I suppose it warrants checks and balances.

If it's a shop or call centre its pure laughable,and some IT provider has just made a sale laughing to the bank.

That is exactly what it is in many cases. HR depts all over the place buying pups.

There is absolutely no need for most employers to use these machines. It strikes me that they just do it because "they can." The attitude above that if the employee doesn't like it, they don't have to be paid is typical of an attitude that is all too common and holds all employees, no matter what their worth to the employer, in utter contempt.

meeeeh

hullaballoo wrote: »

That is exactly what it is in many cases. HR depts all over the place buying pups.

There is absolutely no need for most employers to use these machines. It strikes me that they just do it because "they can." The attitude above that if the employee doesn't like it, they don't have to be paid is typical of an attitude that is all too common and holds all employees, no matter what their worth to the employer, in utter contempt.

Spare me. We have around 10 people working for us, I spend at least 15 minutes every week chasing around those who forgot to clock out, forgot their card or key fob, clock card isn't working and so on. And then you have to get duplicates for lost ones. You can multiply that for bigger companies. I certainly wouldn't fancy doing the same for 1000 people. I can completely see how finger scanner eliminates a lot of hassle and if you also make realize people they are responsible for their clockings there will be a lot of time saved. And spare me about valued employees, people in payroll are not there to evaluate how valued someone is they are there to process data.

hullaballoo

People forget to scan their bits just as often.

Sorry you find your job a lot of hassle but you could try and look at things from the employees point of view and you'll see that your attitude to them is contemptuous, you deem them incompetent to remember something that isn't attached to them and they need to be chased after. Awful management attitude if I'm honest and probably the kind of thing that drives most employees mad.

People don't prioritise what they regards as unnecessarily bureaucratic processes. They are perfectly capable of timekeeping without presenting biometric information about themselves to prove they worked 7.96 hours last Tuesday.

While the information might be important from your perspective, it isn't for people whose jobs mean they are in a completely different head space.

meeeeh

hullaballoo wrote: »

People forget to scan their bits just as often.

Sorry you find your job a lot of hassle but you could try and look at things from the employees point of view and you'll see that your attitude to them is contemptuous, you deem them incompetent to remember something that isn't attached to them and they need to be chased after. Awful management attitude if I'm honest and probably the kind of thing that drives most employees mad.

You are absolutely right. Next time I will deem them competent to remember stuff and pay them only for the hours that are clocked. :rolleyes:

endacl

I work in a place with a face recognition system. When I arrive, Paul the porter looks at my face and verifies that it's me.

Walter2016

For ever odd wrote: »

Thanks, but it does sound a bit like bullyboy tactics.

As regards the other posts- I am only interested in the legality of the system, not the various mechanics of it.

Where do you see the issue? What "data" are you concerned about?

Usually the only people who have a problem with something like this are those with something to hide.

Its simply a more secure way of signing in and ensures you are paid properly and staff cannot scam the employer.

And as per another poster, its not face recognition, its an eye scan. Similar technology is coming to atm machines and many other things, so get used to it.

K.Flyer

For ever odd wrote: »

Hi guys,
My workplace are introducing a face recognition (eye scanner) clock in clock out system for time keeping purposes, with a finger print taken as a back up system (finger print scanner).

Is this legal? Do I have the right to decline?

Thanks in advance, as I cannot provide anymore details other than it is not a security issue.

Sounds a bit like overkill, both retina and finger scan, unless its a high secure facility which requires very limited access to the area.
But I don't think that there is anything illegal about it as similar clock in / out systems have been around for quite a while.


I know one particular company that has been using biometric hand scanners for years. The main reason for its introduction was that staff entered the work place at variable times and some people were "forgetting" to clock out using their older system and others would "clock out" for them.
The introduction of the hand reader came with a simple rule if you don't clock in and out, you did not get paid that day.
Overtime pay was slashed within the first month.

atticu

hullaballoo wrote: »

People forget to scan their bits just as often.

Sorry you find your job a lot of hassle but you could try and look at things from the employees point of view and you'll see that your attitude to them is contemptuous, you deem them incompetent to remember something that isn't attached to them and they need to be chased after. Awful management attitude if I'm honest and probably the kind of thing that drives most employees mad.

People don't prioritise what they regards as unnecessarily bureaucratic processes. They are perfectly capable of timekeeping without presenting biometric information about themselves to prove they worked 7.96 hours last Tuesday.

While the information might be important from your perspective, it isn't for people whose jobs mean they are in a completely different head space.

One of the problems is that people will forget that they worked 7.96 hours last Tuesday until they get their pay slip.
And being paid correctly is very important for most working people.

So, it is often easier to use some biometric clocking in and out system in a lot of companies.

Gatling

I remember a good few years back working for a large multinational we had an issue with stock loss at a particular facility .
After several attempts to prevent losses through traditional means we had to install airport style security scanners and hand held metal detectors ,
We had similar issues with staff saying it wasn't legal and so on nearly all the female workers declared they were pregnant( 3days in )and all the male staff had epilepsy that's prevented them from walking through scanners and having the handhels been used too ,
People always fear new things like finger or hand print readers after a while people forget about them and carry on with what there supposed to be doing

Markcheese

I dont see a problemwith it...
But I also think everyones thumb print should be linked to their driving licence,passport,government services card....
And gardai/appropriate services should have access to handheld scanners...

Senna

If you are opposed to this, what do you possibly think the information could be used for? I'd love some examples.

dev100

Markcheese wrote:

I dont see a problemwith it... But I also think everyones thumb print should be linked to their driving licence,passport,government services card.... And gardai/appropriate services should have access to handheld scanners...

Why ?

Gatling

Markcheese wrote: »

I dont see a problemwith it...
But I also think everyones thumb print should be linked to their driving licence,passport,government services card....
And gardai/appropriate services should have access to handheld scanners...

The PCS card (social welfare) when you go to get one the digital photograp embedded in it is run through facial recognition software to detect fraud ,
I'd expect in the next few years it will be the same for driving licenses and other means of identification