Can suspicion towards immigration be justified?

16-09-2016 05:32PM #1

Whenever the topic of immigration arises, many of us cringe when we hear cries of 'we can't even house our own', and claims about foreigners tkn r jrbs.

I believe that's because many of us feel immense benefits from living in a diverse, multi-ethnic society, and feel insulated from downward wage pressure and job-competition in low-paid sectors.

Imagine if the Government decided to grant access to the Irish labour market for thousands of employees who could do your job, who had the same skills and education as you?

Imagine that instead of importing waiters and retail assistants, we imported tens of thousands of qualified teachers, nurses, lawyers, carpenters, electricians, IT consultants, and administrative workers, and liberalised their access to the labour market, in a bid to drive down the cost of labour.

How many of us would be celebrating that diversity?

Low-paid workers have to compete with immigrant workers, who can access the low-paid labour market with relative ease, but most of us are shielded from this competition. Are we too quick to dismiss geniine conncerns about immigration, without putting ourselves in the shoes of those who have genuine, non-racist fears.

I suppose it's inevitable this thread will attract the usual, baying racists. I'd just like to distance myself from them at the outset.

Maximus Alexander · 16-09-2016 05:39PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Imagine if the Government decided to grant access to the Irish labour market for thousands of employees who could do your job, who had the same skills and education as you?

Imagine that instead of importing waiters and retail assistants, we imported tens of thousands of qualified teachers, nurses, lawyers, carpenters, electricians, IT consultants, and administrative workers, and liberalised their access to the labour market, in a bid to drive down the cost of labour.

Serious question, are the government specifically bringing waiters and retail assistants into the country and blocking more qualified immigrants? Because I've never heard of anything like that and if it's happening it's batsh*t crazy.

Ilovemybricks · 16-09-2016 05:40PM

Import thousands of language teachers from the Netherlands, science teachers from Finland, Maths teachers from China etc and teachers here would strike immediately.

Import tens of thousands of lower skilled workers that compete and drive down conditions and wages for our native lower skilled workers. Teachers teach the kids of the very same lower skilled workers affected that it is racist to oppose this.

Large scale immigration is great if you're not negatively affected by it and or don't have to deal with some of the negative social costs.

Harvey Normal · 16-09-2016 05:41PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Serious question, are the government specifically bringing waiters and retail assistants into the country and blocking more qualified immigrants? Because I've never heard of anything like that and if it's happening it's batsh*t crazy.

There are barriers to entry in many professions though. Not IT though.

Ilovemybricks · 16-09-2016 05:41PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Serious question, are the government specifically bringing waiters and retail assistants into the country and blocking more qualified immigrants? Because I've never heard of anything like that and if it's happening it's batsh*t crazy.

You don't have to have your qualifications accredited to work as a waiter or retail assistance. Different story if you want to set up a legal or dental practice, work as a teacher etc.

Harvey Normal · 16-09-2016 05:43PM

Ilovemybricks wrote: »

Import thousands of language teachers from the Netherlands, science teachers from Finland, Maths teachers from China etc and teachers here would strike immediately.

Import tens of thousands of lower skilled workers that compete and drive down conditions and wages for our native lower skilled workers. Teachers teach the kids of the very same lower skilled workers affected that it is racist to oppose this.

Large scale immigration is great if you're not negatively affected by it and or don't have to deal with some of the negative social costs.

Totally. In fact although not too many people know this public servants are exempt from the "right to work" — in reality that is what people mean by freedom of movement.

16-09-2016 05:43PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Serious question, are the government specifically bringing waiters and retail assistants into the country and blocking more qualified immigrants?

No, I'm referring to the thousands of English-language students in Ireland who are allowed to access part-time work, which inevitably means working in low-paid service-industry jobs, like cleaners, waiters, bar-work, retail, childminding, and so on.

bigpink · 16-09-2016 05:43PM

Look at all the people here on dodgy student visas
Limerick full of it at the moment

bigpink · 16-09-2016 05:45PM

Kebab making and phone unlocking must be skill shortage here

wes · 16-09-2016 05:47PM

We are in the EU, and are as such competing with the millions of people in the EU, who can live and work in Ireland. This already includes Doctors, Engineers etc.

Ilovemybricks · 16-09-2016 05:48PM

Harvey Normal wrote: »

Totally. In fact although not too many people know this public servants are exempt from the "right to work" — in reality that is what people mean by freedom of movement.

I remember seeing a breakdown of public service staff by Irish, EU and Non-EU. Proportionately, Irish staff were vastly over represented. Compare and contrast with the transport industry, catering and hospitality and whatnot.

It's easy to be pro immigration if your pensionable job is not under threat from it. In fact, a population increase could well provide an opportunity for career progression.

Different story for a young hotel Duty Manager on €25k per annum working 60 hours a week with a young family to provide for. They get uppity and they can be replaced in a heartbeat.

SEPT 23 1989 · 16-09-2016 05:48PM

I thought the majority of high paid workers in multinationals were foreign

Ilovemybricks · 16-09-2016 05:49PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I thought the majority of high paid workers in multinationals were foreign

In IT perhaps.

16-09-2016 05:51PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I thought the majority of high paid workers in multinationals were foreign

In my experience a lot of them are.

Gbear · 16-09-2016 05:52PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Imagine if the Government decided to grant access to the Irish labour market for thousands of employees who could do your job, who had the same skills and education as you?

Imagine that instead of importing waiters and retail assistants, we imported tens of thousands of qualified teachers, nurses, lawyers, carpenters, electricians, IT consultants, and administrative workers, and liberalised their access to the labour market, in a bid to drive down the cost of labour.

How many of us would be celebrating that diversity?

If they did it in the morning everyone would be caught cold. The labour market is set up in such a way that you tend to be competing with people from the same background so if you pulled the rug out from everyone it'd be difficult to deal with.

In principle though, if someone is coming from a third world country with a third world education who faced the associated problems of ignorance, violence, malnutrition or whatever other problems that we don't have to deal with in Ireland to anything like the same degree, and they offer better value for money than you, then you bloody well deserve to lose your job.

If someone from far worse conditions can come over here and do better than you, then they almost certainly had to put in more effort and suffer a lot more.

People think they're owed a job. That's the problem. Even in bad times most people are employed, so it stands to reason that expectations would develop, but they're ultimately built on shaky ground.

Turning up and going through the motions isn't enough.

And if you're replaced by someone who's worse than you, then you're unlucky to have been the victim of a false econonomy decision but if you stick at it you'll be ok in the end.

Harvey Normal · 16-09-2016 05:52PM

wes wrote: »

We are in the EU, and are as such competing with the millions of people in the EU, who can live and work in Ireland. This already includes Doctors, Engineers etc.

It certainly includes engineers. I doubtful about doctors. I'm pretty certain that dentistry isn't, after all people seem to have to go to Hungary.

Harvey Normal · 16-09-2016 05:54PM

Gbear wrote: »

If they did it in the morning everyone would be caught cold. The labour market is set up in such a way that you tend to be competing with people from the same background so if you pulled the rug out from everyone it'd be difficult to deal with.

In principle though, if someone is coming from a third world country with a third world education who faced the associated problems of ignorance, violence, malnutrition or whatever other problems that we don't have to deal with in Ireland to anything like the same degree, and they offer better value for money than you, then you bloody well deserve to lose your job.

If someone from far worse conditions can come over here and do better than you, then they almost certainly had to put in more effort and suffer a lot more.

People think they're owed a job. That's the problem. Even in bad times most people are employed, so it stands to reason that expectations would develop, but they're ultimately built on shaky ground.

Turning up and going through the motions isn't enough.

And if you're replaced by someone who's worse than you, then you're unlucky to have been the victim of a false econonomy decision but if you stick at it you'll be ok in the end.

Does this entitlement only apply to unskilled workers in the private sector?

Harvey Normal · 16-09-2016 05:56PM

Bam Bam Mickey wrote: »

In my experience a lot of them are.

IT is the one of the few jobs I can think of where that is the case. I don't expect to meet a polish solicitor, a Romanian civil servant, a teacher from Holland, a GP from Nigeria (although medicine is more open than most).

The fact is none of us would have a job if we had to compete with the world.

wes · 16-09-2016 05:56PM

Harvey Normal wrote: »

It certainly includes engineers. I doubtful about doctors. I'm pretty certain that dentistry isn't, after all people seem to have to go to Hungary.

I may be wrong on the Doctors, not to sure about qualifications carrying over etc.

Ilovemybricks · 16-09-2016 05:58PM

Gbear wrote: »

In principle though, if someone is coming from a third world country with a third world education who faced the associated problems of ignorance, violence, malnutrition or whatever other problems that we don't have to deal with in Ireland to anything like the same degree, and they offer better value for money than you, then you bloody well deserve to lose your job.

If someone from far worse conditions can come over here and do better than you, then they almost certainly had to put in more effort and suffer a lot more.

What do you do? I guarantee that there's plenty of people in the developing world who are better at what you do, more efficient and would be happy to work for less.

This goes for the majority of 2.01 million people in the Irish labour market.

Shenshen · 16-09-2016 06:00PM

I hear this a lot, immigrants forcing wages down - but I have to admit I'm not fully convinced. Were wages for waiters and shop assistants higher (factoring out inflation of course) before Ireland joined the EU and started to see immigration on a noticeable scale?

When I was younger, the very same argument was brought against students - they were bringing wages down by working part-time in unskilled professions (personally, I myself used to work in cinemas, cleaning in a hospital, worked in a automotive manufacturing plant, at a printing factory, stocking shelves, as a translator and in a call centre at various times while I was a student).
I think what's keeping wages low in these sectors is the fact that ANYONE can do them, and there's always going to be someone willing to do it for less.

16-09-2016 06:00PM

Gbear wrote: »

In principle though, if someone is coming from a third world country with a third world education who faced the associated problems of ignorance, violence, malnutrition or whatever other problems that we don't have to deal with in Ireland to anything like the same degree, and they offer better value for money than you, then you bloody well deserve to lose your job.

I don't think you're seeing the point.

This isn't about the principle of migration, which I agree has mutual benefit for Ireland and for immigrants. I'm not complaining about immigration.

50,000 students come to study in Ireland every year, the vast majority are English-language students who work part-time in the low-paid services industry.

I'm asking people to put themselves in the shoes of low-paid workers for a moment, and to imagine tens of thousands of nurses, for example, or teachers, or engineers, entering the country every year, and competing for the same jobs and the same resources as you.

endacl · 16-09-2016 06:02PM

But we do import tens of thousands of qualified teachers, nurses, lawyers, carpenters, electricians, IT consultants, and administrative workers, who work as waiters and retail assistants.

Gbear · 16-09-2016 06:02PM

Harvey Normal wrote: »

Does this entitlement only apply to unskilled workers in the private sector?

It shouldn't.

The thing about highly skilled labourers is that poorer countries tend to produce less of them, but the same logic applies.

If you get replaced in your Structural Engineering job by a guy who barely speaks English that says bad things about you if you're genuinely not good enough, or your company, if they're willing to trade down significantly to cut corners.

Cheaper foreign labour creates pressure on jobs but the appropriate response to that isn't to shut them out - it's to create a higher skilled native workforce.

16-09-2016 06:04PM

Shenshen wrote: »

I hear this a lot, immigrants forcing wages down - but I have to admit I'm not fully convinced.

It doesn't push down wages across the board, no. That's why most of us welcome immigration. We see the benefits, and not the downsides.

Large-scale immigration pushes down wages, or keeps wages low, in the fields in which immigrants are entitled to, or tend to, work.

Ilovemybricks · 16-09-2016 06:05PM

Shenshen wrote: »

I hear this a lot, immigrants forcing wages down - but I have to admit I'm not fully convinced. Were wages for waiters and shop assistants higher (factoring out inflation of course) before Ireland joined the EU and started to see immigration on a noticeable scale?

I worked in a petrol station pre accession as a teen. It was a nice place to work and I could work full time during the holidays.

Post accession I was on one day a week as they couldn't legally get rid of me. They now had their pick of workers from a huge new labour pool.

Kids now can't even get one day a week.

Gbear · 16-09-2016 06:05PM

Ilovemybricks wrote: »

What do you do? I guarantee that there's plenty of people in the developing world who are better at what you do, more efficient and would be happy to work for less.

This goes for the majority of 2.01 million people in the Irish labour market.

I'm a web developer.

I'm quite certain that you're correct given that my boss is Indian and way better than I am (Masters in Computer science to go along with the greater degree of experience).

I could have absolutely no complaints if someone came in in the morning and was able to undercut me.

Grayson · 16-09-2016 06:06PM

Harvey Normal wrote: »

There are barriers to entry in many professions though. Not IT though.

You still have to be earning a certain amount. I think it's 44k. That rules out the junior positions.

Ilovemybricks · 16-09-2016 06:06PM

Gbear wrote: »

I'm a web developer.

I'm quite certain that you're correct given that my boss is Indian and way better than I am (Masters in Computer science to go along with the greater degree of experience).

I could have absolutely no complaints if someone came in in the morning and was able to undercut me.

Be careful what you wish for.

Ilovemybricks · 16-09-2016 06:08PM

Grayson wrote: »

You still have to be earning a certain amount. I think it's 44k. That rules out the junior positions.

€30,000 for a restricted number of strategically important occupations contained in the Highly Skilled Eligible Occupations List.

https://www.djei.ie/en/What-We-Do/Jobs-Workplace-and-Skills/Employment-Permits/Employment-Permit-Eligibility/Highly-Skilled-Eligible-Occupations-List/

€60,000 otherwise.

bigpink · 16-09-2016 06:09PM

Ilovemybricks wrote: »

I worked in a petrol station pre accession as a teen. It was a nice place to work and I could work full time during the holidays.

Post accession I was on one day a week as they couldn't legally get rid of me. They now had their pick of workers from a huge new labour pool.

Kids now can't even get one day a week.

Very true my.local tesco had loads of teens working there now its all indian pakistian polish working there

Can suspicion towards immigration be justified?

Comments