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Religious education in preschool

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    #32
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Dades!

    Y u no post here any more :(
    Sorry! :o
    I'm in a state of retirement and only post infrequently these days! Changed work last year and don't have the opportunity except to dip in and lurk.
    Still <3 A&A though!


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    #33
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,080 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    If the curriculum expressly forbids the saying of grace before meals (unlikely), then by all means bring this to their attention. Otherwise, in the spirit of diversity, multiculturalism and tolerance, I would suggest leaving it be. A preschool is no place for a battleground.

    Could you explain your thinking on how saying (specifically RC) grace before meals encourages diversity, multiculturalism and tolerance?


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    #34
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    looksee wrote: »
    Could you explain your thinking on how saying (specifically RC) grace before meals encourages diversity, multiculturalism and tolerance?

    Infants from a non-Christian background can learn the reason for saying grace, perhaps share what customs they have. The intolerant thing would be to have it banned for no other reason than a parant's hang up over religion. Would you also ask them to ban Easter and Christmas?


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    #35
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Infants from a non-Christian background can learn the reason for saying grace, perhaps share what customs they have.
    You know this is pre-school, right? The only thing the kids are interested in is what's in their lunchbox or up their nose.
    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Would you also ask them to ban Easter and Christmas?
    Nuke them all. It's the only way to be sure.


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    #36
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Infants from a non-Christian background can learn the reason for saying grace, perhaps share what customs they have. The intolerant thing would be to have it banned for no other reason than a parant's hang up over religion.

    Well if you suggest that the school be run with a spirit of diversity, multiculturalism and tolerance:

    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Otherwise, in the spirit of diversity, multiculturalism and tolerance, I would suggest leaving it be. A preschool is no place for a battleground.

    then why is it that only the Christian god gets thanked for meals. Surely in the interests of diversity, multiculturalism and tolerance the children should also thank Allah, and Yahwheh and Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesh, Brahma, Kartikeya, Parvati, Lakshmi, Saraswati, Durga, Kali, Mariamman, Harihara, Ardhanarishvara, Buddha etc. etc. Then to thank Yahwheh properly you'd have to teach the kids a bit of Hebrew and similarly a bit of Arabic for Allah etc. etc. Which is all fine, but the kids might start getting hungry halfway through the Hindu Pantheon.

    Or you could just not have religion in a preschool at all. It would certainly save a bit of time not to mention the fact that kids wouldn't be presented with a metaphysical concept that they're not yet ready to assimilate.


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Would you also ask them to ban Easter and Christmas?

    Well, you could do, or you could just celebrate Easter and Christmas alongside Diwali, Holi, Eid, Hanukkah, Yom Kippur, Passover, Samhain, Imbolc, Vaisakhi, Raksha Bhandan etc. etc.

    Then you have to decide whether it's ok to celebrate Phalia Prakash Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji during the middle of Paryushan Maha Parva or whether that would be offensive to Sikhs or Jains or both. Or maybe the Muslim kids would get offended if there wasn't any time to celebrate the birthday of Ali ibn Abi Talib because they were getting ready to celebrate Passover. Then again the kids mightn't have time to go out and play or learn anything else if they have to spend all their time preparing for all these different religious festivals. You know, in the spirit of diversity, multiculturalism and tolerance and all.

    Or maybe it's just that you only want the kids to celebrate your religion's feast days. That's not very tolerant now is it?


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    #37
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Infants from a non-Christian background can learn the reason for saying grace, perhaps share what customs they have. The intolerant thing would be to have it banned for no other reason than a parant's hang up over religion. Would you also ask them to ban Easter and Christmas?

    hmm strange,
    I'm not sure whats wrong here but its evident you have some massive issues grasping a very simple thing, that being that the pre-school are not following the curriculum which requires that they have an inclusive, multiculturalism and diverse environment. Making all the children pray to a christian god means is not doing this. Can I ask did you even bother to read my last post explaining the issue, it perhaps did you have trouble understanding it?

    If the pre-school wishes to have a session that explains the christian holiday thats fine, it however is not fine for it to integrate religious praying of ANY faith into its everyday routine as the pre-school has done in this instance. In doing so the pre-school is non-compliant with the curriculum and Tusla would mark them as such.

    Despite this you seem to think its perfectly acceptable for a pre-school to be non-compliant with Tusla requirements, this is disappointing and also slightly worrying.

    By all means the pre-school can have a day where Easter is explained but lets be honest here kids have no interest in "baby jesus" when it comes to easter and instead its far more likely to be about easter bunnys.

    However, the pre-school should not just concentrate on christian only holidays. For example it should include other cultures celebrations throughout the year where all children learn about for example Chinese new years, what other cultures do in December (learning about the Yule Goat of Scandinavian and Northern Europe origin for example). Of course the pre-school year can't include every other holiday that happens but it should choose a few to cover throughout the year and pre-schools will often do this by going by the types of children in the sessions, for example explaining Indian holidays if there are Indian children, Polish holidays if there are Polish children and so on.

    Your belief that it is ok for the pre-school to integrate only christian religious praying into his every day routine is deeply flawed. It is not ok as it ignores the curriculum the pre-school is supposed to be following. Its no more ok then if the pre-school decided to have muslim prayers 5 times a day,

    Of course if we apply your deeply flawed viewpoint onto the Muslim prayers example I guess all those Christians could do with learning about Allah and how Allah is the one true god and how praying and thanking him is very important to their lives
    :rolleyes:

    frostyjacks, stop showing yourself up in relation to this issue. Its evident you don't understand the issue you are trying to argue for.


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    #38
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    You're not even making a mountain out of a molehill. There is no molehill. Unless the curriculum explicitly states that grace should not be said before meals, then there is no issue. Nobody is being forced to say it. It's not illegal. It's teaching children to be thankful for having a nice meal to eat. It's disturbing that adults could get their knickers in a twist over this.


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    #39
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    You're not even making a mountain out of a molehill. There is no molehill. Unless the curriculum explicitly states that grace should not be said before meals, then there is no issue. Nobody is being forced to say it. It's not illegal. It's teaching children to be thankful for having a nice meal to eat. It's disturbing that adults could get their knickers in a twist over this.

    Its not teaching children to be thankful,
    Its specifically indoctrinating children to be thankful to be a specific religions deity for their meal. There is I think you'll find a big difference, its sad you are blind to this.

    Teaching children to be thankful would be teaching them to say "thank you" to the person that serves them the food. Funny enough you don't need to involve a religion to do that and its something that parents are well capable of teaching their child as well...just like what religion (or none) the child should believe in.


    We all know that you wouldn't be making such a silly argument here if the pre-school was asking kids to be thankful to Allah or Elron Hubbard at mealtime. You're only posting this silly, weak counter argument because its the christian/catholic faith.


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    #40
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,965 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Cue "But it's a catholic country" in 5... 4... 3... :rolleyes:

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #41
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    None of the kids do the sign of the cross in my son's Montessori.

    This thread seems to be the usual religious hangups.
    I'm not RC and have no problems my son doing RE.,.for now .it's all about relationships at senior infants.
    I'll pull him in first class as he won't be making his communion and the school will make arrangements for him and the other non RC kids in another room...very accommodating for a religious a school.


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    #42
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Erin Whining Quotation wrote: »
    None of the kids do the sign of the cross in my son's Montessori.

    This thread seems to be the usual religious hangups.
    I'm not RC and have no problems my son doing RE.,.for now .it's all about relationships at senior infants.
    I'll pull him in first class as he won't be making his communion and the school will make arrangements for him and the other non RC kids in another room...very accommodating for a religious a school.

    Sending children to another room because of religion is bizarre. I can't understand why so many people think segregated education is a good idea.


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    #43
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Cue "But it's a catholic country" in 5... 4... 3... :rolleyes:

    See also: It's a Catholic school; no one else has an issue; and sure didn't we all do it and it never did us any harm.


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    #44
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    lazygal wrote: »
    Sending children to another room because of religion is bizarre. I can't understand why so many people think segregated education is a good idea.

    They will be doing communion in first class. As RE will be focused on this we choose to pull our child rather than have him sitting on his own reading or drawing.
    Ideally I'd love to see it separate but we're happy to work with the system. We teach our kids our beliefs at home.


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    #45
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Erin Whining Quotation wrote: »
    They will be doing communion in first class. As RE will be focused on this we choose to pull our child rather than have him sitting on his own reading or drawing.
    Ideally I'd love to see it separate but we're happy to work with the system. We teach our kids our beliefs at home.

    What a waste of resources. I can't believe parents put up with this.


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    #46
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,965 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Erin Whining Quotation wrote: »
    We teach our kids our beliefs at home.

    That's what everyone who has a belief should be doing.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #47
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    That's what everyone who has a belief should be doing.

    I agree but the sad truth is that most of these parents who want their kid raised RC wouldn't have a clue what to do when they go inside a church. Most of them from what I've seen think it's a place to catch up for a chat with their pals or make that urgent phone call.


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    #48
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    You keep saying it's not in compliance with Tulsa, without actually backing it up. Virtually every preschool in the country observes and celebrates the Christian festivals. Would you have them all reported for non-compliance? Essentially, it all boils down to the same thing. You want to stop people of all faiths from practicing their religion. Targeting infants is a new low. Have you no shame?


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    #49
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    You keep saying it's not in compliance with Tulsa, without actually backing it up. Virtually every preschool in the country observes and celebrates the Christian festivals. Would you have them all reported for non-compliance?

    sigh,
    Celebrating Christmas wouldn't cause them to be non-compliant, after all they would celebrate it as a Santa event and not the "birth of baby jesus", easter would also all be about the bunnys.

    Just deciding to make kids pray before each meal to a specific god would make them non-compliant, the creche can't just decide to indoctrinate the entire pre-school year without the parents consent in addition the pre-school in this situation is required by regulation to respect the OP's wishes that their child not be involved in such a practice.

    I see you've finally dropped the utter crap that was "its teaching them to be just thankful"
    :rolleyes:
    Essentially, it all boils down to the same thing. You want to stop people of all faiths from practicing their religion. Targeting infants is a new low. Have you no shame?

    All I can say again here is sigh, if I was into posting images as replys I'd likely choose faceplam here.

    Nobody is stopping anyone practicing a faith, they are very free to do so in their own time. But in a pre-school environment it MUST be inclusive, the pre-school should not push or include religious prayers for one specific religion above another.

    In all honesty you appear to have a number of issues grasping this very fact so I'm honestly not going to waste my time with you anymore. You are either unable to grasp simple difference or you are just intentionally trying to waste people's time with your silly, pointless and ill-informed posts


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    #50
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Very, very few pre schools only celebrate Christian things. Most now have projects on everything from Eid to Chinese New Year to Midsummer and everything in between. I suspect Frostyjacks has little or no experience of pre school children or education.


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    #51
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    You keep saying it's not in compliance with Tulsa, without actually backing it up. Virtually every preschool in the country observes and celebrates the Christian festivals. Would you have them all reported for non-compliance? Essentially, it all boils down to the same thing. You want to stop people of all faiths from practicing their religion. Targeting infants is a new low. Have you no shame?
    Let's not get too dramatic.

    Just to remind you, this is what the school said was their policy:
    All children /staff are welcome here regardless of colour, race or religious beliefs. All aspects of cultural diversity should be encouraged and provision should be made within the curriculum to promote these cultures especially if there is a child within the group from a different cultural/religious background.
    TBH, this was't much of an issue until you came in taking umbrage that the issue was even being discussed. Then talk of banning Christmas etc. just put everyone on the defensive.

    It would be interesting to hear how a conversation with the people running the school might go. It may well be they have no idea anyone actually has a cultural difference they care about, and they're willing to adapt.

    Of course the problem is child indoctrination in any form just gets people's goat up here. For the religious it's never indoctrination if it's your religion.


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    #52
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,965 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Virtually every preschool in the country observes and celebrates the Christian festivals.

    They celebrate the two cultural festivals which are most popular in our society. The Christians claim these for themselves, but they are actually of far older pagan origin :p and for the vast majority of people today, have little or no religious significance

    I wouldn't imagine too many pre-schools are into Pentecost or Corpus Christi, but if you know different please do share.

    Would you have them all reported for non-compliance?

    Another run around for the tired old lie, the old "TEHY WANT TO BAN CHRISTMAS!!11!!1!" ? Really??

    Targeting infants is a new low.

    Oh, I fully agree, that's why no proselytising should be allowed in preschools.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #53
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    The funny thing is, if you found out they were teaching infants about gay sex or transgenderism, you would be positively squealing in delight. But something wholesome, something right and proper as giving thanks for a meal when half the world are starving is so offensive, that not only your children but all the children of the nation must be banned from saying it, is hilarious. Just take them out preschool if it's that big of a deal.


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    #54
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I'm just going to assume you don't have children in pre-school (or ever had).

    In pre-school the kids learn not to hit other kids while learning shapes .This is an adult conversation about a school policy. No rights have been trampled on.


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    #55
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Jesus didn't make any food and by making kids pray and do the sign of the cross the pre school may be ignoring the curriculum that they are supposed to follow. .
    I know I've joined in after everyone lost the run of themselves, but there's no reason to think that allowing children to say blessings and make the sign of the cross in any ways shows that the school might be ignoring a curriculum that they're not under any obligation to follow anyway, is there? I don't think a 'mention' from a four year old that they can't (and I note it's not 'aren't allowed to') eat their lunch before doing things is the most concrete foundation for analysing the schools approach to diversity.
    Cabaal wrote: »
    I had a chat to somebody very much in the know about this, the two main curriculum used in pre schools are aistear and siolta neither of which have one set religion and instead encourage divisity and multiculturalism. The pre school curriculum is much more advanced and inclusive then the primary curriculum in this regard. So taking the curriculum into account the pre school is bang out of order if the are using aistear or siolta, I'd suggest the op queries with the preschool what the curriculum being used is. Because this plays an important part in what options they have.
    Well... no. Neither curriculum prohibits displays of faith, and both approaches are used in Catholic pre schools (like the Dominican Montessori in Dun Laoghaire). So 'bang our of order' may well be an extravagant overstatement, or simply a reflection of your own personal view of what it means to encourage diversity and multiculturalism, which others might well take as encouraging uniformity and monoculturalism.
    Cabaal wrote: »
    It's worth pointing out that if they use either of the above curriculum then if a Tusla inspection took place then the preschool would be found non compliant in relation in areas of multiculturalism, diversity, inclusivity and equality.
    It might be if you could find Tusla inspection criteria which prohibit displays of faith in preschools, but I'm willing to bet you can't... On the other hand, the Tusla reports on that Dominican Montessori I mentioned are here and here, and find no issues with their multiculturalism, diversity, inclusivity or equality, despite their statement that they are based on a Catholic philosophy and the Dominican ethos, and welcome and respect the diversity of culture, race and religion among their pupils.

    It may well be a Catholic school is capable of having an inclusive multicultural environment, being compliant with Tuslas inspections, and following the recommended curricula, whist allowing (even encouraging!) pupils to express their faith, Catholic or otherwise, at lunchtimes. Maybe?

    I still think lauradryeye should have a chat with the teacher and find out some facts; it will help her decide an appropriate course of action which may simply amount to her child being a part of a group that don't participate in those activities. Or even, given the paucity of information in the OP, being moved away from sitting beside the only child in the class who feels they can't eat their lunch until they said their blessings and done the sign of the cross.


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    #56
    learn_more
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    lauradryeye wrote: »
    Hi all,

    My 4 year old daughter just joined our local preschool and she mentioned that they can't eat their lunch until they said their blessings and done the sign of the cross.

    Just mentioned that in passing? What were you discussing with her at the time? The American Election ?
    I'm not sure if they also do prayers as she doesn't tell me much!

    You just said, that she said, that she can't eat before 'blessings'. She appears to be well aware of the order of business, not bad for a 4yo.
    We are atheists, we never talked to her about religion as it never came up really so she doesn't have a clue what this is all about..

    What normally comes up in conversation with your 4yo? The budget deficit ?
    I am so annoyed over this, like I had no idea that "indoctrination" would start so young. I think what is bothering me the most is the fact that they never told us about it.

    They were hardly going to indoctrinate you daughter, and let you know about their plot in advance.


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    #57
    iguana
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,909 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    learn_more wrote: »
    Just mentioned that in passing? What were you discussing with her at the time? The American Election ?
    You just said, that she said, that she can't eat before 'blessings'. She appears to be well aware of the order of business, not bad for a 4yo.
    What normally comes up in conversation with your 4yo? The budget deficit ?
    They were hardly going to indoctrinate you daughter, and let you know about their plot in advance.

    What a weird post. Do you know any four year olds. My nearly four year old tells me very little about what he does in playschool when I ask him. But sometimes when we are in the middle of doing something else he will mention something about his school day. Completely normal. The OP's daughter probably doesn't give much detail when asked what she did at school but later at dinner she could have told everyone to not eat until the blessing and then made the sign of the cross.

    As for what people normally talk about with their four year olds. My son likes to talk about toys, superheroes, Star Wars, harvesting fruit and veg, whether or not he'll be getting an ice-cream because he's very, very hot, can we go to Smyths because they might be having a big sale, trajectory, velocity and to remind me not to press the brake when I should press the accelerator because if I do my driving will be bad. We have yet to discuss god/religion at all and when he recently overheard someone mention 'baby Jesus' he got excited that a babychinno would be forthcoming.


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    #58
    learn_more
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    Do you know any four year olds.

    Can't say I have any in my circle of friends, no.
    My nearly four year old tells me very little about what he does in playschool when I ask him. But sometimes when we are in the middle of doing something else he will mention something about his school day. Completely normal.

    Such as? The religious indoctrination that's going on perhaps ? Quite precocious little 4yo you have there.
    The OP's daughter probably doesn't give much detail when asked what she did at school but later at dinner she could have told everyone to not eat until the blessing and then made the sign of the cross.

    Well tell you what, if that's true, then the indoctrination is going exceptionally well. I don't ever recall instructing my parents when I was 4, as to what to do before or after meals, based on what I experienced at school.
    As for what people normally talk about with their four year olds. My son likes to talk about toys, superheroes, Star Wars, harvesting fruit and veg, whether or not he'll be getting an ice-cream

    Star Wars ? That was last year when he was 3yo. Does your 3yo watch a lot of TV? Not a good idea when one is 3yo. I'd suggest one episode of Prime Time per week, no more than that.
    ....because he's very, very hot, can we go to Smyths because they might be having a big sale

    Your 4yo understand the concept of 'sales'. Well it's always wise to spends ones money wisely I suppose. Best to drill that into them early. Never mind they don't even understand the concept of money at that age.
    .. trajectory, velocity and to remind me not to press the brake when I should press the accelerator because if I do my driving will be bad.

    Sounds to me you should let your 4yo do the driving.
    We have yet to discuss god/religion at all and when he recently overheard someone mention 'baby Jesus' he got excited that a babychinno would be forthcoming.

    Well, when you wrap up your conversations with him about Star Wars, sales, driving skills, fruit harvesting, then maybe you'll get around to it.


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    #59
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,080 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    learn_more wrote: »
    Can't say I have any in my circle of friends, no........... get around to it.

    Is this post supposed to be witty, or edgy, or a genuine reaction?


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    #60
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,236 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    learn_more wrote: »
    Can't say I have any in my circle of friends, no.



    Such as? The religious indoctrination that's going on perhaps ? Quite precocious little 4yo you have there.



    Well tell you what, if that's true, then the indoctrination is going exceptionally well. I don't ever recall instructing my parents when I was 4, as to what to do before or after meals, based on what I experienced at school.



    Star Wars ? That was last year when he was 3yo. Does your 3yo watch a lot of TV? Not a good idea when one is 3yo. I'd suggest one episode of Prime Time per week, no more than that.



    Your 4yo understand the concept of 'sales'. Well it's always wise to spends ones money wisely I suppose. Best to drill that into them early. Never mind they don't even understand the concept of money at that age.



    Sounds to me you should let your 4yo do the driving.



    Well, when you wrap up your conversations with him about Star Wars, sales, driving skills, fruit harvesting, then maybe you'll get around to it.

    This post, and his previous post are utterly bizarre. I think you should learn more about children before you talk about them in such a dismissive way.

    You've scoffing at a parent who engages with his or her own child? I'm actually speechless that someone can be so arrogant and so completely wrong.


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    #61
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Akrasia wrote: »
    This post, and his previous post are utterly bizarre. I think you should learn more about children before you talk about them in such a dismissive way.

    You've scoffing at a parent who engages with his or her own child? I'm actually speechless that someone can be so arrogant and so completely wrong.

    I don't have kids myself, but I'm even bemused that somebody could be so utterly clueless in relation to 4 year olds as learn_more appears to be. Its sort of sad


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