Phoenix Park tunnel: 4 trains per hour from 2016

Sam Russell · 12-09-2016 07:18PM

IE 222 wrote: »

Regarding the level crossing landsdown and maybe Sydney parade might fit cars only pass under the railway. But some people will loose access to driveways and one or 2 of the side roads would have to loose there access as well.

Merrion gates there is space there but it would very steep not sure if the railway could be lowered much with sea level there. The road would need some realignment to and loose some routings. It would also be a eye sore.

There is no space at Sydney Parade to do anything as it is a bus route (47) and the buildings are all very close to the line. A tunnel is not possible and a bridge is not possible either. [Maybe they could try a teleport solution.]

Merrion Gates could be done with a tunnel - there is land opposite at Carritas and St May's Nursing home that might allow a road re-alignment. A bridge would be difficult as height would be a problem and interfere with many buildings on the northern side of the gates. There is an old station there that might be a protected structure that might prove a problem.

Even if Merrion Gates was solved, then the other four gates would still be a problem. Lansdowne Rd - nothing can be done with the stadium towering over the line. Serpentine Road - again nothing here, Sandymount Station - again no space and Sydney Parade - again no space.

With a ten minute Dart and other diesels passing through, the gates could be closed well over 50% of the time. There will be complaints.

[At Sydney Parade the gates close 2 minutes before a south bound train and 3 minutes before a north bound train plus its dwell time. Trains currently are scheduled to minimise the closure times at Merrion Gates which does not help the gates at Sydney Parade.]

IE 222 · 12-09-2016 07:25PM

end of the road wrote: »

would all be for the greater good though. it would benefit more people then those effected i should think.

Agreed. They might have to buy them out, not just for the inconvenience but for the extra space.

A few simple bits of planning could help as well with using the loop at Pearse and grand canal and terminate a dart at dun laoghaire would solve south bound intercity trains this could actually be done when 10 minutes darts come in. People can't complain about loosing a service they don't already have then.

Northbound maybe a way can be found to add onto the nature reserve for a loop a booterstown or treble between Blackrock and Merrion. Some sort of section on stilts would maybe have a minor impact to the reserve.

Grandeeod · 12-09-2016 07:56PM

ClovenHoof wrote: »

People have short memories. The Dublin Rail Plan is almost half a century old now and no tunnel of any manner has been built. The people who lobbied for the PPT tunnel to be opened, knew that the Interconnector was never going to happen (in a country that is run by idiots) and quite logically and correctly, wanted current assets sweated to the max to improve commuter options with realistic goals.

The PPT opening is still a miracle, as the people who wanted it were caught between CIE managers devoted to property development, and British Trainspotters on the 'mainland' dictating rail transport policy .... [SNIP -- DELETED BY MOD] ...However the PPT is about to become a commuter rail line and improve the quality of commuting for many thousands forever. It's success will only boost the case for further investment in rail. Baby steps.

You got a fantastic asset to rail transport in Ireland about to be unleashed with the PPT. It is here so deal with it. The campaigners won because the were right all along and that is that.

There is so much truth in that post and a few reopenings of old wounds that some will refuse to recognise or even consider. But we are here now at a point that didn't seem possible a few years ago.

Banjoxed · 12-09-2016 08:24PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

There is so much truth in that post and a few reopenings of old wounds that some will refuse to recognise or even consider. But we are here now at a point that didn't seem possible a few years ago.

Nearly forty years ago CIE had a stand at the Spring Show at the RDS, handing out pasteboard leaflets titled "Towards Rapid Transit". It was a perfectly workable plan but as soon as it looked like coming to fruition, commentators like Hugh Munro and Sean Barrett came out of the woodwork attacking it. Buses were good enough, etc, ad nauseum. Whatever power those guys had, it created institutional paralysis at an official level for years, and the desire to redesign and relaunch variations of bits of it.

One decent bit of the original Rapid Transit scheme that can now not come to fruition was the proposed busway from the city centre to Tallaght, with a fully off road section from Mount Argus onwards. It could have been the basis for anything from a busway to a rail corridor in an area of Dublin that now has high car dependency and mainly low density housing as a result. That was squashed under George Redmond and the land sold off for development. The curse of official Ireland is short term thinking hand in glove with quick profit taking. No wonder An Taisce and anyone who wants higher densities with commensurate high quality public transport get excoriated - it slows up the cute hoors making bucks from lashed up development.

monument · 12-09-2016 08:46PM

ClovenHoof wrote: »

People have short memories. The Dublin Rail Plan is almost half a century old now and no tunnel of any manner has been built. The people who lobbied for the PPT tunnel to be opened, knew that the Interconnector was never going to happen (in a country that is run by idiots) and quite logically and correctly, wanted current assets sweated to the max to improve commuter options with realistic goals.

The PPT opening is still a miracle, as the people who wanted it were caught between CIE managers devoted to property development, and British Trainspotters on the 'mainland' dictating rail transport policy .... [SNIP -- DELETED BY MOD] ...However the PPT is about to become a commuter rail line and improve the quality of commuting for many thousands forever. It's success will only boost the case for further investment in rail. Baby steps.

You got a fantastic asset to rail transport in Ireland about to be unleashed with the PPT. It is here so deal with it. The campaigners won because the were right all along and that is that.

Five day ban for the uncivil attack (deleted from the above) on a group of people which is uncalled for and not allowed here.

You should be able to make your point without being uncivil. But there's also the problem of an on-going obsession of focusing on attacking groups of people rather than attacking their arguments. This isn't a place to air your historic or other grievances.

-- moderator

Grandeeod · 12-09-2016 08:53PM

Banjoxed wrote: »

Nearly forty years ago CIE had a stand at the Spring Show at the RDS, handing out pasteboard leaflets titled "Towards Rapid Transit". It was a perfectly workable plan but as soon as it looked like coming to fruition, commentators like Hugh Munro and Sean Barrett came out of the woodwork attacking it. Buses were good enough, etc, ad nauseum. Whatever power those guys had, it created institutional paralysis at an official level for years, and the desire to redesign and relaunch variations of bits of it.

One decent bit of the original Rapid Transit scheme that can now not come to fruition was the proposed busway from the city centre to Tallaght, with a fully off road section from Mount Argus onwards. It could have been the basis for anything from a busway to a rail corridor in an area of Dublin that now has high car dependency and mainly low density housing as a result. That was squashed under George Redmond and the land sold off for development. The curse of official Ireland is short term thinking hand in glove with quick profit taking. No wonder An Taisce and anyone who wants higher densities with commensurate high quality public transport get excoriated - it slows up the cute hoors making bucks from lashed up development.

You are obviously of a similar age to me if you can remember things that accurately and of course you are correct. Not many old foggies on these boards nowadays, so its very hard to explain how things have transpired or even convince the younger generation that this crap runs in cycles and never really changes.

goingnowhere · 12-09-2016 09:29PM

In theory you could get 4 tracks Connolly to beyond Clontarf Road without a huge amount of hassle as its 4 track to the Clontarf road already

Just need to get rid of Fairview depot, there was of course plans for a huge DART depot near Maynooth for the DART underground, so could be waiting a while

But you just move the conflict point to somewhere else, its all at grade

Banjoxed · 12-09-2016 10:04PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

You are obviously of a similar age to me if you can remember things that accurately and of course you are correct. Not many old foggies on these boards nowadays, so its very hard to explain how things have transpired or even convince the younger generation that this crap runs in cycles and never really changes.

Indeed. I have long ceased to be surprised at perfectly good projects being delayed beyond belief to a never never time. I am glad though that the PPT is happening.

monument · 12-09-2016 10:46PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is no space at Sydney Parade to do anything as it is a bus route (47) and the buildings are all very close to the line. A tunnel is not possible and a bridge is not possible either. [Maybe they could try a teleport solution.]

Merrion Gates could be done with a tunnel - there is land opposite at Carritas and St May's Nursing home that might allow a road re-alignment. A bridge would be difficult as height would be a problem and interfere with many buildings on the northern side of the gates. There is an old station there that might be a protected structure that might prove a problem.

Even if Merrion Gates was solved, then the other four gates would still be a problem. Lansdowne Rd - nothing can be done with the stadium towering over the line. Serpentine Road - again nothing here, Sandymount Station - again no space and Sydney Parade - again no space.

With a ten minute Dart and other diesels passing through, the gates could be closed well over 50% of the time. There will be complaints.

[At Sydney Parade the gates close 2 minutes before a south bound train and 3 minutes before a north bound train plus its dwell time. Trains currently are scheduled to minimise the closure times at Merrion Gates which does not help the gates at Sydney Parade.]

I don't see the space issue as being as bad as you do at Sydney Parade, I think it might be difficult but an underpass (even if single lane) should be doable without any destruction of buildings -- next option would be bulldoze the signal cabin and extend the station platform down the other side of the station and/or CPO house southwest of the crossing. There would be some changes in access arrangements to/from houses but I think it could be all doable. But also bus routes can change.

Looking at the wider picture: Motoring access may not be achievable or desirable in terms of cost/benefit at ever crossing in the area.

spacetweek · 12-09-2016 10:54PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

There is so much truth in that post and a few reopenings of old wounds that some will refuse to recognise or even consider. But we are here now at a point that didn't seem possible a few years ago.

Indeed I hope that PPT is a game changer, I hope that it's very popular and makes Heuston-bound commuters realise that they should have been dropped off in the centre of town all along instead of being dumped at Heuston where they try to crush their way onto a Luas. This would increase the pressure for DU.

spacetweek · 12-09-2016 10:56PM

monument wrote: »

I don't see the space issue as being as bad as you do at Sydney Parade, I think it might be difficult but an underpass (even if single lane) should be doable without any destruction of buildings -- next option would be bulldoze the signal cabin and extend the station platform down the other side of the station and/or CPO house southwest of the crossing. There would be some changes in access arrangements to/from houses but I think it could be all doable. But also bus routes can change.

Looking at the wider picture: Motoring access may not be achievable or desirable in terms of cost/benefit at ever crossing in the area.

If that's true, could we not consider just closing some of those roads outright?

Surely we can deal with the crossings in D4 with a combination of: railway overpass, road underpass, road closure, as appropriate.

Of course the gold plated solution would be to replace that whole section with a tunnel from GC Dock to Booterstown but sure you can only dream.

IE 222 · 12-09-2016 11:06PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is no space at Sydney Parade to do anything as it is a bus route (47) and the buildings are all very close to the line. A tunnel is not possible and a bridge is not possible either. [Maybe they could try a teleport solution.]

Merrion Gates could be done with a tunnel - there is land opposite at Carritas and St May's Nursing home that might allow a road re-alignment. A bridge would be difficult as height would be a problem and interfere with many buildings on the northern side of the gates. There is an old station there that might be a protected structure that might prove a problem.

Even if Merrion Gates was solved, then the other four gates would still be a problem. Lansdowne Rd - nothing can be done with the stadium towering over the line. Serpentine Road - again nothing here, Sandymount Station - again no space and Sydney Parade - again no space.

With a ten minute Dart and other diesels passing through, the gates could be closed well over 50% of the time. There will be complaints.

[At Sydney Parade the gates close 2 minutes before a south bound train and 3 minutes before a north bound train plus its dwell time. Trains currently are scheduled to minimise the closure times at Merrion Gates which does not help the gates at Sydney Parade.]

Wouldn't be letting a bus route put a stop to any plans. Sydney would be tight and low. And effect one or two driveways and the road running along the station would loose it's access.

LandsDowne would have the space for a low tunnel / rail over bridge. Curve it slightly and it shouldn't effect any driveways.

Merrion has a chance for a bridge with road realignment and no removing left turn onto strand road.

Serpentine and Sandymount are to limited to change. But will leave only 2 crossings beside each other to deal with and programme to suit movements. Also allow your 47 to be rerouted and any other large traffic to cross.

Del.Monte · 12-09-2016 11:10PM

spacetweek wrote: »

Indeed I hope that PPT is a game changer, I hope that it's very popular and makes Heuston-bound commuters realise that they should have been dropped off in the centre of town all along instead of being dumped at Heuston where they try to crush their way onto a Luas. This would increase the pressure for DU.

Being crushed into a Luas tram compares well with what CIE saw fit to offer right up until the advent of the No.90 bus route - even then they had the cheek to charge extra for the bus.

Prior to that double-deck buses were the order of the day with all the hassle that that entailed for people with luggage. Frequently buses dawdled down the quays ro give the conductor time to collect fairs. :rolleyes:

IE 222 · 12-09-2016 11:14PM

spacetweek wrote: »

If that's true, could we not consider just closing some of those roads outright?

Surely we can deal with the crossings in D4 with a combination of: railway overpass, road underpass, road closure, as appropriate.

Of course the gold plated solution would be to replace that whole section with a tunnel from GC Dock to Booterstown but sure you can only dream.

Sydney and serpentine could survive with a clue de sac either side of the gates. There is enough alternative routes

spacetweek · 13-09-2016 08:36AM

Yep and pedestrian bridge of course. So only cars would be losing access not people.

MGWR · 13-09-2016 04:47PM

spacetweek wrote: »

If that's true, could we not consider just closing some of those roads outright?

Surely we can deal with the crossings in D4 with a combination of: railway overpass, road underpass, road closure, as appropriate.

Of course the gold plated solution would be to replace that whole section with a tunnel from GC Dock to Booterstown but sure you can only dream.

A tunnel that long would mean no more diesel service south of Greystones. I've always wondered why there was no elevation of the railway through to Booterstown, frankly.

sporty56 · 13-09-2016 05:58PM

It's a bit bizarre going on about tunnels and flyovers to solve problems at DART level crossings when real issue is extraordinarily long barrier down time.

Irish Rail technical staff would do us all a great service to visit similar level crossings in UK, France, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Norway, Japan, Buenos Aires Argentina and San Francisco USA and enquire of those rail companies how their busy commuter lines manage to operate smoothly using barrier down times at least half shorter than that common on DART line and at the same time not slaughter pedestrians, cyclists and motorists.

thomond2006 · 13-09-2016 08:04PM

Those DART level crossings are particular nightmares on Aviva Stadium match days. They can be down for 10 minutes with no train passing for the majority of that time. It's bizarre.

dowlingm · 13-09-2016 08:43PM

As far as Merrion Gates goes, it would be easier to disconnect the road junction and run it seaward of the line and then over it to a 4 way junction at Trimleston Road. Might be some tricky environmental concerns but it eliminates a notorious LC. The thing to keep in mind of course as far as matters south of GCD is the well heeled adjoining residents who have the means to tie IE in legal knots even if the law is against them.

Has anything been proposed for the former Cabra Yard on the PPT line?

Grandeeod · 13-09-2016 08:48PM

PPT line discussion turns into a debate about how we can serve the already better served south Dublin DART line that's had spectacular service (in Irish terms) since 1984. :rolleyes:

Grandeeod · 13-09-2016 08:49PM

[QUOTE=dowlingm;101034758
Has anything been proposed for the former Cabra Yard on the PPT line?[/QUOTE]

Apartments was the last I heard.

dowlingm · 13-09-2016 08:52PM

According to IRN, there will be track lowering in the PPT to reverse the singling of the track for 9'6" containers clearance. I guess I was a bit pessimistic on what that would take, but on the other hand it may not be enough for OHLE as well!
http://www.irrs.ie/Journal188/188Infrastructure.htm

The double track tunnel is currently limited to one train per direction as the track was slewed into the centre to permit 9’ 6” high containers and work to restore double track working will take place. This will include track lowering as the tunnel is in fact three joined tunnel structures. The middle section near the Dublin Zoo was not below ground level but a roof section was constructed to make it a tunnel.

spacetweek · 13-09-2016 09:53PM

The middle section near the Dublin Zoo was not below ground level but a roof section was constructed to make it a tunnel.

!!!
There used to be a railway in a cutting through the Phoenix Park near the zoo??

spacetweek · 13-09-2016 09:55PM

MGWR wrote: »

A tunnel that long would mean no more diesel service south of Greystones. I've always wondered why there was no elevation of the railway through to Booterstown, frankly.

I doubt trains will still be using diesel in a couple of decades,

Del.Monte · 13-09-2016 10:23PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Those DART level crossings are particular nightmares on Aviva Stadium match days. They can be down for 10 minutes with no train passing for the majority of that time. It's bizarre.

Where's the Aviva?

Del.Monte · 13-09-2016 10:26PM

dowlingm wrote: »

As far as Merrion Gates goes, it would be easier to disconnect the road junction and run it seaward of the line and then over it to a 4 way junction at Trimleston Road. Might be some tricky environmental concerns but it eliminates a notorious LC. The thing to keep in mind of course as far as matters south of GCD is the well heeled adjoining residents who have the means to tie IE in legal knots even if the law is against them.

Has anything been proposed for the former Cabra Yard on the PPT line?

Booterstown Marsh could be filled in for all the purpose it serves as a bird sanctuary - a monument of how not to look after a nature reserve.

IE 222 · 13-09-2016 10:55PM

dowlingm wrote: »

As far as Merrion Gates goes, it would be easier to disconnect the road junction and run it seaward of the line and then over it to a 4 way junction at Trimleston Road. Might be some tricky environmental concerns but it eliminates a notorious LC. The thing to keep in mind of course as far as matters south of GCD is the well heeled adjoining residents who have the means to tie IE in legal knots even if the law is against them.

Has anything been proposed for the former Cabra Yard on the PPT line?

That would work as well. Be very costly but it's badly needed for everybody's benefit. Probably cause some serious head aches in terms of sea defences and getting solid foundations.

Sam Russell · 13-09-2016 11:03PM

monument wrote: »

I don't see the space issue as being as bad as you do at Sydney Parade, I think it might be difficult but an underpass (even if single lane) should be doable without any destruction of buildings -- next option would be bulldoze the signal cabin and extend the station platform down the other side of the station and/or CPO house southwest of the crossing. There would be some changes in access arrangements to/from houses but I think it could be all doable. But also bus routes can change.

Looking at the wider picture: Motoring access may not be achievable or desirable in terms of cost/benefit at ever crossing in the area.

The signal box at Sydney Parade is a protected structure. It serves no useful purpose now.

The road crossing is particularly narrow anyway with hardly enough room for a bus to pass. The house on the NW point is quite new (called Station House) and would have to be sacrificed. I cannot see how anything acceptable could be achieved there, even with massive works.

I think the locals would rebel (and some locals are well found politically).

IE 222 · 13-09-2016 11:28PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

The signal box at Sydney Parade is a protected structure. It serves no useful purpose now.

The road crossing is particularly narrow anyway with hardly enough room for a bus to pass. The house on the NW point is quite new (called Station House) and would have to be sacrificed. I cannot see how anything acceptable could be achieved there, even with massive works.

I think the locals would rebel (and some locals are well found politically).

Wouldn't have to take the house. A section of the garden would do. It's a big enough garden as well. It's the house on the south West of the LC would be worse effected. They will loose their driveway at least.

Best bet is to give that option or block road access across the rail line.

Sam Russell · 14-09-2016 02:20PM

IE 222 wrote: »

Wouldn't have to take the house. A section of the garden would do. It's a big enough garden as well. It's the house on the south West of the LC would be worse effected. They will loose their driveway at least.

Best bet is to give that option or block road access across the rail line.

You either have to drop the rail by 6 metres or drop the road by 6 metres. Neither is good.

Alternatively you raise one or other. Again not good.

Close the crossing? Not good either - might as well continue as is with over 50% closure.

Phoenix Park tunnel: 4 trains per hour from 2016

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