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Why did Gardai destroy possible burial site of Irelands longest missing child?

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  • #2042
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    No, you're trying to pretend what I say.
    But sure while you're at it, find us one where there was a conviction in Ireland for murder without any physical evidence ?
    Also the primary aim of the campaign and family is finding Mary so she can have a proper burial.

    Doesn't matter.

    The gardai say it's a missing persons case.

    Not a murder.

    http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=6341&Lang=1



    http://internationalmissingchild.org/find-child/poster/IRGSMK1


    They don't seem open to the suggestion that she was murdered.


  • #2043
    Laika123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 267 ✭✭Laika123


    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    No, you're trying to pretend what I say.
    But sure while you're at it, find us one where there was a conviction in Ireland for murder without any physical evidence ?
    Also the primary aim of the campaign and family is finding Mary so she can have a proper burial.

    Sorry I must have mis-understood you, what did you mean?

    Again your method of finding the killer is useless, you haven't explained really how you'd go about it, you've said how you wouldn't, but not how you would.


  • #2044
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,277 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Going Forward wrote: »
    The perfect crime then.
    Unsolvable.

    How easy it was in hindsight.

    And a police force which initially bungled a murder investigation is left to pretend to all and sundry that it's doing it's best.

    This creates credibility issues because to admit such an error in such a sensitive case would be at once both admirable and astonishing.

    Admirable for its unprecedented honesty but astonishing for the public to hear.

    Someone is getting away with murder and no one is accepting or apportioning any blame for it nearly 40 years on.

    It is well known who murdered Garda Donoghue in Louth but there seems to be very little evidence to prove it.
    All the names are local knowledge. Some of them have fled the country yet there seems to be lack of evidence to even have them taken back never mind charged.

    Is this not just as astonishing?


  • #2045
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    tayto lover wrote: »
    It is well known who murdered Garda Donoghue in Louth but there seems to be very little evidence to prove it.
    All the names are local knowledge. Some of them have fled the country yet there seems to be lack of evidence to even have them taken back never mind charged.

    Is this not just as astonishing?

    It is.

    But there was supposed to have been a burial site with hair found in this case which was never investigated and a suspect who was never properly interrogated.

    And a belief that she is missing still.


  • #2046
    Giacomo McGubbin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Giacomo McGubbin


    Laika123 wrote: »
    Sorry I must have mis-understood you, what did you mean?

    Again your method of finding the killer is useless, you haven't explained really how you'd go about it, you've said how you wouldn't, but not how you would.

    Again, you're ignoring the fact first and foremost the family want Mary's whereabouts and remains found. And a confession isn't worth the paper it's written on without any physical evidence.


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  • #2047
    Laika123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 267 ✭✭Laika123


    tayto lover wrote: »
    It is well known who murdered Garda Donoghue in Louth but there seems to be very little evidence to prove it.
    All the names are local knowledge. Some of them have fled the country yet there seems to be lack of evidence to even have them taken back never mind charged.

    Is this not just as astonishing?

    But they'd be a bit of a tougher nut to crack than the suspect, and they'd be taken in 7 days at a time and interrogated, not as a witness but as a suspect.

    But they are professional criminals, stare at a spot, no comment, I don't think the suspect would be so hard.


  • #2048
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,277 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Laika123 wrote: »
    But they'd be a bit of a tougher nut to crack than the suspect, and they'd be taken in 7 days at a time and interrogated, not as a witness but as a suspect.

    But they are professional criminals, stare at a spot, no comment, I don't think the suspect would be so hard.

    They haven't even been taken in ???


  • #2049
    Laika123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 267 ✭✭Laika123


    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    Again, you're ignoring the fact first and foremost the family want Mary's whereabouts and remains found. And a confession isn't worth the paper it's written on without any physical evidence.

    Mary's mother doesn't want anybody looking into the suspect and what really happened and I don't believe she want's the body found either, could ruffle a few feathers and bring things to light that she wants to keep buried.

    And with a confession there's much more chance of finding the body, after a confession theres nothing left to hide, I really suspect you have an ulterior motive here.


  • #2050
    oranbhoy67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

    That actually means getting some hard evidence that will find her, instead of wasting time on politics, fueds, and conspiracies.

    THIS is actually the truth of the matter

    and that is what us - the family - are focusing on whilst Gemma conducts basically a circus now
    Im sorry but that is what it is turning into in my eyes

    but as i said we are focused on a different goal



    also an interesting read here - (from bottom to top as is twitters way)

    https://twitter.com/downdemall


  • #2051
    Laika123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 267 ✭✭Laika123


    tayto lover wrote: »
    They haven't even been taken in ???

    Who fled the country?


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  • #2052
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,277 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Going Forward wrote: »
    It is.

    But there was supposed to have been a burial site with hair found in this case which was never investigated and a suspect who was never properly interrogated.

    And a belief that she is missing still.

    I was led to believe from an earlier post that there was indeed a search of that site.

    I can't understand the Garda reluctance to question that suspect, even at this late stage.


  • #2053
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,277 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Laika123 wrote: »
    Who fled the country?

    There were 6 in the gang it seems and some have left the country shortly after the murder.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/the-border-foxes-why-no-arrests-in-the-killing-of-det-garda-adrian-donohoe-1.1667120


    Anyway i don't want to get away from the main thread.


  • #2054
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    Again, you're ignoring the fact first and foremost the family want Mary's whereabouts and remains found. And a confession isn't worth the paper it's written on without any physical evidence.

    You're going way ahead of yourself, with respect; the gardai are not treating it as a murder case.

    They are of the opinion no death has occurred.

    If they weren't of that opinion there might be a chance of an inquest.


  • #2055
    Laika123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 267 ✭✭Laika123


    oranbhoy67 wrote: »
    THIS is actually the truth of the matter

    and that is what us - the family - are focusing on whilst Gemma conducts basically a circus now
    Im sorry but that is what it is turning into in my eyes

    but as i said we are focused on a different goal



    also an interesting read here - (from bottom to top as is twitters way)

    https://twitter.com/downdemall


    Interesting read, thanks for sharing, as somebody not from the area I had no idea, about Florence and co, I'll read the links attached now.


  • #2056
    Giacomo McGubbin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Giacomo McGubbin


    oranbhoy67 wrote: »
    THIS is actually the truth of the matter

    and that is what us - the family - are focusing on whilst Gemma conducts basically a circus now
    Im sorry but that is what it is turning into in my eyes

    but as i said we are focused on a different goal



    also an interesting read here - (from bottom to top as is twitters way)

    https://twitter.com/downdemall

    Keep going. Keep focusing.
    More than anything I pray your family find little Mary and get to give her a decent burial and have a grave to visit and where she can finally rest in peace.
    Anything else after that, including convictions would be a bonus.
    Best wishes Oranbhoy.


  • #2057
    oranbhoy67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    A suspect is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
    In this case, that's never going to happen now until there is some actual indisputable hard evidence turned up that forces everyone to act, including the political clicks, whether they want to or not. In any case, the killer hasn't cracked for 40 years and he's not going to. Anyone cold blooded and calculated enough to kill a 6 year old girl and hide her body for years isn't going to crack now especially without any hard evidence, especially after 40 years. Even if he is somehow forced to admit some involvement after 40 years, he'll very likely then try to bargain her location and most likely never reveal it.

    At least if there is a forensic lead discovered, it might lead to finding Mary, or at the very least where she was once buried, and given all the politics and mess that's a much more realistic avenue at present and a much easier side to tackle without getting bogged down, diverted and deflected. One of the most likely leads to follow up on and professionally and forensically excavate is being continually ignored.

    I agree with your post except on these two points

    Firstly the main suspect hasnt had any pressure on him relatively speaking these last 40 years , certainly nowhere near the pressure he should be under

    on the second point I bolded - dont Think that because it isn't on certain people twitter etc that nothing is being done to move things on.


  • #2058
    Laika123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 267 ✭✭Laika123


    Ahh FFS it is like a circus up there, the lunatics running the asylum.


  • #2059
    Giacomo McGubbin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Giacomo McGubbin


    oranbhoy67 wrote: »
    I agree with your post except on these two points

    Firstly the main suspect hasnt had any pressure on him relatively speaking these last 40 years , certainly nowhere near the pressure he should be under

    on the second point I bolded - dont Think that because it isn't on certain people twitter etc that nothing is being done to move things on.

    I'm surprised there hasn't been some local gossip pressure for years. I'm pretty sure there has been some, but granted that's never as good as genuine police pressure. I would agree it's an avenue worth pursing and you are best placed to judge that not me. it's really good to see you focusing down to pursing these two tracks. Hopefully this focus will yield some progress and has the best chance of success. Because of the politics, I'm sure I don't need to tell you how many bangwagoners would like to use this case for all sorts of agenda's and score settling, but I think your wise to that now. God bless.


  • #2060
    oranbhoy67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    Keep going. Keep focusing.
    More than anything I pray your family find little Mary and get to give her a decent burial and have a grave to visit and where she can finally rest in peace.
    Anything else after that, including convictions would be a bonus.
    Best wishes Oranbhoy.

    thank you

    yes as I said in earlier posts I do believe there was at times political corruption in that general area, Its not an area I know well myself and the more I find out about it the more shocked I am.

    but right now there is nothing to link that to the case of mary except for our suspect and the politician being of the same party but yeah as you say that is for another day.

    Though there are too many individuals wanting to grasp at that particular possible aspect of the case, I was wrapped up in it myself as earlier posts will show .

    The gards find her body or get a confession, either of those and anyone involved in any corruption in relation to the case I'm sure will be exposed , there is good gardai and rotten ones as in any profession . shouting and screaming about corruption is only going to scare the decent ones off.

    But the Gardai as a force owe us here, they messed up the investigation, its time they started making amends whilst they still can


  • #2061
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I found this while browsing.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/cold-case-gardai-1593085-Aug2014/
    What does it take for a case to be reviewed?

    ?width=491&version=1596191 Source: Shutterstock
    The unit also reviews cases where there has been an allegation or dispersion in the public domain about how an investigation was carried out.
    Requests for reviews of investigations come from a variety of different groups – it is not limited to families and friends of victims. Often, an advocacy group will request a review, as well as legal representatives, politicians and local investigators.

    That first one is a bit unsettling. Do they mean that "Investigations which are likely to remain unsolved" don't get reviewed thoroughly?
    Or how do they decide that the case is likely to remain unsolved?

    On the other hand, this looks hopeful:
    As with modern investigations, witnesses are also key and Daly said it often happens that a person’s attitude has changed or they are now willing to give information to gardaí that they hid during the initial investigation.

    Hmmm....


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  • #2062
    Laika123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 267 ✭✭Laika123


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I found this while browsing.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/cold-case-gardai-1593085-Aug2014/



    That first one is a bit unsettling. Do they mean that "Investigations which are likely to remain unsolved" don't get reviewed thoroughly?
    Or how do they decide that the case is likely to remain unsolved?

    On the other hand, this looks hopeful:



    Hmmm....

    I think the first bit simply means a case that isn't going to be solved as is, like the Mary Boyle case as is, meaning this case should be in first place last 35 years or so.



    Out of curiosity I noticed the Raonaid Murray case comes back into the news this time each year, my friend died around the same week, 17 years ago, just wondering if a similar appeal goes out or has gone out around 18th March any year?


    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/we-remain-committed-to-catching-the-killer-garda-renew-raonaid-murray-17-murder-appeal-35018496.html


  • #2063
    Esel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,007 ✭✭✭✭Esel
    Not Your Ornery Onager


    Laika123 wrote: »
    No need for all that, I think your looking too deep into it, just arrest the suspect, as a suspect and interrogate him for 7 days like they do all other murder suspects.

    Two points on this and a later post of yours:

    1. Not 7 days, except if the offence is considered to be under the Offences Against The State Act (this is often abused) or certain drug trafficking offences. Otherwise, I think it's 48 hours max.

    2. The interruption of the interview did not happen as a result of a call. The more senior officer in the room did it - an Inspector, if I remember correctly.

    Not your ornery onager



  • #2064
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    Esel wrote: »
    Two points on this and a later post of yours:

    1. Not 7 days, except if the offence is considered to be under the Offences Against The State Act (this is often abused) or certain drug trafficking offences. Otherwise, I think it's 48 hours max.

    2. The interruption of the interview did not happen as a result of a call. The more senior officer in the room did it - an Inspector, if I remember correctly.

    But why he did it is the question.

    Aidan Murray originally said the "gist of the call" was that certain people were not to be made suspects.

    It was later explained that his mention of a phone call was taken out of context, and that the interview was stopped as a result of the interviewee's mental health being a concern to the senior officer present, who, AFAIK, but I am open to correction, had no medical qualifications in the area of mental health.

    Was the person being interviewed one of those people?

    That doesn't really matter if we are to put any rumours of a phone call to one side I guess.

    But if A Murray was saying he had his man and the interview was stopped mid flow, why did he bring it up in the first place??


  • #2065
    oranbhoy67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    Aiden Murray was stopped mid-interrogation with a kick under the table by his superior gard just as he thought the suspect was ready to confess

    when he asked afterwards why this happened he was told " that man would have been hanging from a tree tomorrow if you had kept interrogating him like that"


  • #2066
    Macca07
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭Macca07


    Laika123 wrote: »
    Out of curiosity I noticed the Raonaid Murray case comes back into the news this time each year, my friend died around the same week, 17 years ago, just wondering if a similar appeal goes out or has gone out around 18th March any year?


    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/we-remain-committed-to-catching-the-killer-garda-renew-raonaid-murray-17-murder-appeal-35018496.html

    I believe Gemma O'Doherty is currently writing a piece on the murder of Raonaid Murray, and also believes Gardai corruption is in play here too.

    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/02/19/raonaid/

    To answer your query, I don't think any appeal has happened for Mary Boyle in many years, but can't confirm that.


  • #2067
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Macca07 wrote: »
    I believe Gemma O'Doherty is currently writing a piece on the murder of Raonaid Murray, and also believes Gardai corruption is in play here too.

    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/02/19/raonaid/

    To answer your query, I don't think any appeal has happened for Mary Boyle in many years, but can't confirm that.

    Well that makes my mind up!
    Gemma clearly has an agenda here.


  • #2068
    Macca07
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭Macca07


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Well that makes my mind up!
    Gemma clearly has an agenda here.

    Of course she does, to bring to light the corruption going on in this country. I don't have any problem with this. This country is short of some decent journalists.

    If she helps find out what happened to a 6yo girl in Donegal back in 77, or the murderer of a 17yo girl in Dublin in 99, even better.


  • #2069
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Macca07 wrote: »
    Of course she does, to bring to light the corruption going on in this country. I don't have any problem with this. This country is short of some decent journalists.

    If she helps find out what happened to a 6yo girl in Donegal back in 77, or the murderer of a 17yo girl in Dublin in 99, even better.

    Or making up Garda corruption where none exists!
    We know she has a problem with AGS, now will any unsolved case be down to ' Garda corruption' !!


  • #2070
    Macca07
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭Macca07


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Or making up Garda corruption where none exists!
    We know she has a problem with AGS, now will any unsolved case be down to ' Garda corruption' !!

    That's you're opinion, I don't agree with it, but it's yours.
    I believe this country has been ripe with corruption for years, and it has taken years for some of this to come to light.

    In regards to the Gardai, I think we all knew there was some corruption in most stations around the country (letting off friends with speeding tickets, drink driving offenses, etc.), but to think that they've been protecting child murderers is horrendous.


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  • #2071
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Or making up Garda corruption where none exists!
    We know she has a problem with AGS, now will any unsolved case be down to ' Garda corruption' !!

    If the ineptitude as shown in the Mary Boyle case and the Fr Molloy case is anything to go by, we all have a problem.


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