Handicap manipulation?

spoke2cun · 04-09-2016 09:05AM #1

Is there anything a club can do to a players handicap regarding reducing it? This player doesn't get cut the normal way ie .1,.2,.3 off for every shot under the css etc. He doesn't seem to get a 'general play' cut either. This player can go around in level par but is playing off 12! It's annoying a lot of people.

Macker1 · 04-09-2016 09:11AM

Surely if the person is scoring that well in comps the cuts to hcap are happening. Is the person submitting good scores in comps?

Hibrasil · 04-09-2016 09:43AM

Is he returning cards after competitions....some players "bin" cards if score not good enough to win competition....or confine their wins to team events or fourball competitions. The alternative (unspeakable) is that club is protecting his handicap for interclub matchplay competitions....I know that is unmentionable...but to misquote a man in front of a tribunal years ago said...does it happen?....does it f*! (you can guess the rest)!

Hoof Hearted2 · 04-09-2016 04:32PM

spoke2cun wrote: »

Is there anything a club can do to a players handicap regarding reducing it? This player doesn't get cut the normal way ie .1,.2,.3 off for every shot under the css etc. He doesn't seem to get a 'general play' cut either. This player can go around in level par but is playing off 12! It's annoying a lot of people.

If he's off 12 he is category 2 player and gets cut by .2 for every shot he betters CSS by, if as you say this is not happening in the normal way, then you should ask why and provide evidence other than idle speculation or a "gut feeling".

spoke2cun · 05-09-2016 10:02AM

Macker1 wrote: »

Surely if the person is scoring that well in comps the cuts to hcap are happening. Is the person submitting good scores in comps?

Rarely submits a good score. If he thinks 36 or 37 points will win he might have that. You rarely get cut at our course when your around that mark. But he's prone to 'missing' the odd short putt, if you know what I mean.

mike12 · 05-09-2016 10:18AM

spoke2cun wrote: »

Rarely submits a good score. If he thinks 36 or 37 points will win he might have that. You rarely get cut at our course when your around that mark. But he's prone to 'missing' the odd short putt, if you know what I mean.

Yips??

So when is he shooting the good scores?
What has he won this year?
If your club allow no returns or you don't have to sign into a comp before it starts then they are at fault, fix that first and you close a big loop hole.

Senna · 05-09-2016 11:33AM

mike12 wrote: »

Yips??

So when is he shooting the good scores?
What has he won this year?
If your club allow no returns or you don't have to sign into a comp before it starts then they are at fault, fix that first and you close a big loop hole.

I'm guessing he's just another pro bandit, knows he could go out and win nearly every weekly comp but wants to keep his handicap up for team/club games.
Very little a club can do about these players.
They will usually miss a few putt, take two out of a bunker, call a penalty on themselves for a double tap etc, so they have 28-32 points every week.
Club can only cut someone when they have a good score, if they don't return a good score, they cant be cut.

If the handicap committee are aware and are not facilitating the player, they can cut for being on winning teams, but sometimes the home club don't know a player has won something in an away team comp.

Other problem is handicap cuts can be challenged and so you cant just cut someone who you know is capable of better than their handicap without a reason for the cut (based on returned scores).

spoke2cun · 05-09-2016 06:26PM

He shoots great scores when he knows he can't get cut. 9 hole comps, betterball etc.

Senna · 05-09-2016 07:41PM

spoke2cun wrote: »

He shoots great scores when he knows he can't get cut. 9 hole comps, betterball etc.

Think 9 holes comps can now be used for handicap purposes now.

They are scum, cheating against fellow golfers. Try not to give them to much thought, I believe golf is a game against yourself and the course, your handicap is an achievement and a goal. These bandits believe its a game against everyone else and the handicap is their method of cheating. If they were that good they would be able to win and have a true handicap, truth is, they just look good because their handicap is so wrong.

spoke2cun · 06-09-2016 07:45AM

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

If he's off 12 he is category 2 player and gets cut by .2 for every shot he betters CSS by, if as you say this is not happening in the normal way, then you should ask why and provide evidence other than idle speculation or a "gut feeling".

It's not idle speculation or gut feeling. The reason he is not being cut in the 'normal' way is that he hardly ever betters the CSS. As I said he can go round in par or at least in the mid 70s on a good day, and in the low 80s on a bad day. He's a player who wants to keep shots to play with. I believe every golfer's prize or target should be to lower your HC. But it seems that some would prefer vouchers as prizes. Sad.

Seve OB · 06-09-2016 07:52AM

Honestly sounds like a case of sour grapes to me. I agree with the 'idle speculation' comment.
We know nothing of this guy. I do know many golfers (me included :rolleyes:) who have the capability to play better....much better than their handicap would suggest but putting it all together is always easier said than done. Probably the best golf I've ever played is when I've been on teams, four balls etc. Much less pressure on you then and it can make a big difference.

Hoof Hearted2 · 06-09-2016 07:56AM

spoke2cun wrote: »

It's not idle speculation or gut feeling. The reason he is not being cut in the 'normal' way is that he hardly ever betters the CSS. As I said he can go round in par or at least in the mid 70s on a good day, and in the low 80s on a bad day. He's a player who wants to keep shots to play with. I believe every golfer's prize or target should be to lower your HC. But it seems that some would prefer vouchers as prizes. Sad.

Provide evidence or else what you are saying amounts to nothing more than idle speculation.

spoke2cun · 06-09-2016 09:54AM

Seve OB 'We know nothing of this guy' that's 100% correct. You do know nothing of this guy. But we here at the club know everything about him. And as far as sour grapes are concerned, you are miles off the mark. I just think that he's not playing honestly to his full HC potential. It's getting to the stage where some won't play with him. I'd rather never win a competition again than play the game like that.

Senna hits the nail on the head. 'They are scum, cheating against fellow golfers. Try not to give them to much thought, I believe golf is a game against yourself and the course, your handicap is an achievement and a goal. These bandits believe its a game against everyone else and the handicap is their method of cheating. If they were that good they would be able to win and have a true handicap, truth is, they just look good because their handicap is so wrong'

And I also agree that getting cut for a 9 hole competition will be a good thing.

Russman · 06-09-2016 11:06AM

spoke2cun wrote: »

It's not idle speculation or gut feeling. The reason he is not being cut in the 'normal' way is that he hardly ever betters the CSS. As I said he can go round in par or at least in the mid 70s on a good day, and in the low 80s on a bad day. He's a player who wants to keep shots to play with. I believe every golfer's prize or target should be to lower your HC. But it seems that some would prefer vouchers as prizes. Sad.

A 12 handicapper who can shoot level par on a good day ?? Has he ever done this or is this from people who saw him hit a few good shots once upon a time ?
I agree with your sentiment that lowering your handicap should be your goal, but if this guy doesn't win stuff, or break CSS, how can anyone say he's better than 12 ? Unless there's more to the story, obviously.

Nine hole comps are pretty meaningless IMHO, your handicap is based on 18 holes, end of. Its getting almost to the point where anyone who has a good front nine and blows up on the back has questions asked of them. Do only dropped shots early in the round count now ? The best pros in the world can't play good golf to order yet people suggest a mid handicap amateur is capable of this......I dunno. Justin Rose shot 45 for nine holes the other day, bad golf happens when under pressure.

mike12 · 06-09-2016 11:18AM

What is this guy winning? When is he shooting the good scores?
If he can play off 5 then he should be cleaning up the prizes but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Has he won the matchplays 3 years in a row, wins everytime he plays in a team event?
Has 4 major prizes?
What is he keeping his handicap for?
Sour grapes is what it sounds like as you haven't given any details.

Senna · 06-09-2016 11:31AM

Lot of naïve golfers around here.
These people exist, their team event record speaks for itself, they maybe in a tiny minority, but providing excuses on a forum isn't going to change the OP view, since he's the person who actually knows the guy.

Dtoffee · 06-09-2016 11:35AM

spoke2cun wrote: »

Seve OB 'We know nothing of this guy' that's 100% correct. You do know nothing of this guy. But we here at the club know everything about him. And as far as sour grapes are concerned, you are miles off the mark. I just think that he's not playing honestly to his full HC potential. It's getting to the stage where some won't play with him. I'd rather never win a competition again than play the game like that.

Senna hits the nail on the head. 'They are scum, cheating against fellow golfers. Try not to give them to much thought, I believe golf is a game against yourself and the course, your handicap is an achievement and a goal. These bandits believe its a game against everyone else and the handicap is their method of cheating. If they were that good they would be able to win and have a true handicap, truth is, they just look good because their handicap is so wrong'

And I also agree that getting cut for a 9 hole competition will be a good thing.

It should be easy enough to check out how many prizes this guy has collected in your club during the past year. I did such research on an individual many years ago and found he was on the 17 prizes mark (ok some were 3rd etc, but there were quite a few winter wins). He started the year on 15.9 and finished it on 16.1 :eek: when I questioned it with the Handicap secretary, I was told they were watching him and waiting till the winter season ended ..... he went 1.5 and had the shots back within a month through playing 3/4 times per week (home and away). A year later and nothing changed as my man was well stocked for xmas dinner, so I left the club.

I am convinced the only way to deal with guys like this is to have a league table of wins in all competitions (inc 9H/teams/4ball etc etc) posted up for everyone to see ..... its amazing how these guys dont like being under the spotlight :rolleyes: and its also true that most members would be surprised at how many prizes can be collected by one member throughout a golf year.

Russman · 06-09-2016 11:40AM

Senna wrote: »

Lot of naïve golfers around here.
These people exist, their team event record speaks for itself, they maybe in a tiny minority, but providing excuses on a forum isn't going to change the OP view, since he's the person who actually knows the guy.

Yeah, but Senna, that could just as easily be turned on its head to say lots of cynical or jealous golfers round here. I'm playing a long time and I can honestly say I know one golfer who I think is carrying 4 or 5 shots, and even at that, he wins feck all.

IMHO there's way too much hearsay in golf clubs about golfer X and his ability, most of it unfounded IMHO. I've seen it so many times, an 18 handicapper strings a few pars together and all of a sudden in the bar later he's condemned as a bandit, conveniently forgetting the 5 double bogeys he's also had in his round of 32pts.

If the guy is winning plenty of better ball comps, team events and 9 holes, then the end of year review should take care of it, he's a prime candidate for a review if the h/c sec is doing his job.

Senna · 06-09-2016 12:08PM

From my experience, winning team events away from home seem to rarely get back to the home club.
As I said, its really a tiny minority and in fairness, no one is talking about an 18hcp stringing a few good scores together.

A local club had to change their yearly winter open comp as the 2 guys I have in my mind won it every year. In that particular one, they never broke the css, just 36 points week in week out, golfers with a true handicap just cant do that for 10 weeks in a row.

Russman · 06-09-2016 12:19PM

Senna wrote: »

From my experience, winning team events away from home seem to rarely get back to the home club.
As I said, its really a tiny minority and in fairness, no one is talking about an 18hcp stringing a few good scores together.

A local club had to change their yearly winter open comp as the 2 guys I have in my mind won it every year. In that particular one, they never broke the css, just 36 points week in week out, golfers with a true handicap just cant do that for 10 weeks in a row.

True enough.
You're right though, its a tiny minority. I'd wonder does making the rules more and more strict or onerous actually have any effect or does there come a point where in constantly trying to catch the very few, the big majority are imposed upon or somehow made to feel, ah f--k it its not worth the hassle.
That being said, we've a big fund raiser team event coming up soon and I could probably name the winning team today !!:eek::eek:

The Rape of Lucretia · 06-09-2016 12:22PM

Senna wrote: »

they never broke the css, just 36 points week in week out, golfers with a true handicap just cant do that for 10 weeks in a row.

This is a hallmark of some bandits. Not understanding the handicap system, they betray their manipulation of their handicap. As Senna says, it is simply impossible to keep your score within a few shots week in week out. Claims of being 'steady' are nonsense - they are cheating. But it is not visible to the average member - he does indeed believe they are just consistent - and not shooting 45 points, therefore, not bandits.

And they are a different animal to the client who gets cut a shot or two with a win, but then goes on a streak of NRs and 28 pointers - with the aim of getting the shot back as quickly as possible. And then repeating the big score again on the day when the prize is right.

The most target rich area to find both categories of golfers is on handicapped interclub comps - especially successful ones, or ones where the team changes little from year to year.

All clubs have these guys. I would guess about 5% of golfers engage in manipulation (including some the other way - the vanity minders of handicaps they cannot really play to - no prizes, but like to be able to say they are single digits or whatever).

While ignorance is no excuse in the law, some golfers are so ignorant they do not even know they are banditing - many golfers do have the misapprehension that averaging around CSS or 36 points ish is fine. And if that is what they average, then that is proof that they are not bandits. In fact, it is the proof that they are bandits.

Senna · 06-09-2016 12:32PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

While ignorance is no excuse in the law, some golfers are so ignorant they do not even know they are banditing - many golfers do have the misapprehension that averaging around CSS or 36 points ish is fine. And if that is what they average, then that is proof that they are not bandits. In fact, it is the proof that they are bandits.

I think these guys need to use the handbrake to keep to the 36 sometimes too, so its very cool and calculated. They know they are bandits, they might try and justify what they are doing, but they know they are doing it.

mike12 · 06-09-2016 12:39PM

I'm not saying there aren't bandits but this fellow could play to X, if he isn't winning loads then what's the point?

Russman · 06-09-2016 12:49PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

While ignorance is no excuse in the law, some golfers are so ignorant they do not even know they are banditing - many golfers do have the misapprehension that averaging around CSS or 36 points ish is fine. And if that is what they average, then that is proof that they are not bandits. In fact, it is the proof that they are bandits.

I think this ^^^^ is a huge issue. For whatever reason its never (at least that I'm aware of) been properly communicated from the powers that be that golfers "shouldn't" be able to consistently shoot their handicap. Lots of golfers, most of whom are definitely not intentional bandits, are indeed of the view that to be a proper 10, 12, 16 or whatever handicap, you should almost always be in or around 36pts.

AGC · 06-09-2016 12:54PM

mike12 wrote: »

I'm not saying there aren't bandits but this fellow could play to X, if he isn't winning loads then what's the point?

This.

If the guy is off 12 and regularly shoots 68 net in medal's and Captain's and is hammering out .1's the rest of the year then it is an issue.

If he is holding onto 12 to win the odd fourball he is a clown and not worth getting worked up over.

Russman · 06-09-2016 12:54PM

Senna wrote: »

I think these guys need to use the handbrake to keep to the 36 sometimes too, so its very cool and calculated. They know they are bandits, they might try and justify what they are doing, but they know they are doing it.

I don't think they all know they are doing it. Lots of older golfers have grown up with the simple notion that a 10 handicap should pretty much always be close to 10 over par, give or take. Its a fairly logical conclusion to come to.
Handicap has never been IMO properly explained by the governing bodies as a players potential (if that's in fact what it is, I think myself its still a little grey, albeit I haven't looked up the definition in a while)

spoke2cun · 06-09-2016 02:16PM

Dtoffee wrote: »

It should be easy enough to check out how many prizes this guy has collected in your club during the past year. I did such research on an individual many years ago and found he was on the 17 prizes mark (ok some were 3rd etc, but there were quite a few winter wins). He started the year on 15.9 and finished it on 16.1 :eek: when I questioned it with the Handicap secretary, I was told they were watching him and waiting till the winter season ended ..... he went 1.5 and had the shots back within a month through playing 3/4 times per week (home and away). A year later and nothing changed as my man was well stocked for xmas dinner, so I left the club.

I am convinced the only way to deal with guys like this is to have a league table of wins in all competitions (inc 9H/teams/4ball etc etc) posted up for everyone to see ..... its amazing how these guys dont like being under the spotlight :rolleyes: and its also true that most members would be surprised at how many prizes can be collected by one member throughout a golf year.

Sounds very familiar and I agree with your suggestions/solutions.

If the player in question thinks that 35/36 pts will get him into the top 10 for the Captain's/President's day 9 hole play-off, he'll score 36 or 37 just to be sure of making it and not getting much of a cut, if any. He'll then shoot 23 or 24 pts to win the play-off because he knows he won't get cut. So much for general play handicap adjustment!

mike12 · 06-09-2016 02:16PM

AGC wrote: »

This.

If the guy is off 12 and regularly shoots 68 net in medal's and Captain's and is hammering out .1's the rest of the year then it is an issue.

If he is holding onto 12 to win the odd fourball he is a clown and not worth getting worked up over.

But that's impossible, he can only go up one shot so he can do it once and depending on the CSS the he should get caught for a ESR.

Half the problem is clubs don't manage the return of cards, hear loads of stories where guys only hand in a card where they are in the buffer or looking for a cut.
The css will never be right unless all cards are returned and the cuts will usually be bigger.

mike12 · 06-09-2016 02:19PM

spoke2cun wrote: »

Sounds very familiar and I agree with your suggestions/solutions.

If the player in question thinks that 35/36 pts will get him into the top 10 for the Captain's/President's day 9 hole play-off, he'll score 36 or 37 just to be sure of making it and not getting much of a cut, if any. He'll then shoot 23 or 24 pts to win the play-off because he knows he won't get cut. So much for general play handicap adjustment!

That's not the case he can be cut for the 9 holes so should have gotten a cut of 1.2 or so.

AGC · 06-09-2016 02:34PM

mike12 wrote: »

But that's impossible, he can only go up one shot so he can do it once and depending on the CSS the he should get caught for a ESR.

Not if he is doing it only a few times a year with .1's in between - Which this guy doesn't even seem to be doing.

In fairness if people saw some of my front 9 back 9 combinations this year they would be asking questions!!

Seve OB · 06-09-2016 02:35PM

http://www.congu.com/faqs/old_site/9%20Hole%20Scores.pdf

so to shoot 24 is effectively a score of 42, because they just add a neutral 18 points for the unplayed 9. so based on css of 36 that's a cut of 1.2 for our "bandit"

In actual fact, I would think it might be easier then to get cut in a 9 hole comp as many of us can play very well for 9 holes, but have a poor 9 then to balance it out.

Handicap manipulation?

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