Should schools be made accountable for bullying?

Airyfairy12 · 06-09-2016 04:58AM #1

A young guy in my town committed suicide this week because of bullying in school. His death was entirely preventable, such a waste of a young life. Bullying in school causes depression, anxiety and a host of other mental illnesses yet many teachers and school staff ignore the problem. If schools were held accountable for bullying then maybe they'd take it more seriously.

Arghus · 06-09-2016 05:07AM

What exactly do you mean when you say "accountable"?

Airyfairy12 · 06-09-2016 05:21AM

Arghus wrote: »

What exactly do you mean when you say "accountable"?

I mean should action be taken against a school that has repeated incidences of bullying within the school

Peregrinus · 06-09-2016 06:11AM

What kind of action? Taken by whom? With what outcome?

bearhugs · 06-09-2016 06:14AM

The problem is that nowadays bullying extends so far beyond the school. Its rarely just within the school. It's impossible for teachers to police social media, texting and the like.

Airyfairy12 · 06-09-2016 06:14AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

What kind of action? Taken by whom? With what outcome?

Fine them maybe? anything! Maybe it would encourage them to crack down on bullying

Airyfairy12 · 06-09-2016 06:15AM

bearhugs wrote: »

The problem is that nowadays bullying extends so far beyond the school. Its rarely just within the school. It's impossible for teachers to police social media, texting and the like.

Im not talking about social media, im talking about in school bullying

bearhugs · 06-09-2016 06:24AM

I know you are, I'm just saying that they go hand in hand. Bulling doesn't stop the minute a child walks out the school door in this day and age. Teachers can do their best to curb bullying that they are aware of on the school grounds, but they can't fully police it.

I agree with you that school staff should go above and beyond to stop bullying. I don't think it's as clear cut as you seem to think is all.

Airyfairy12 · 06-09-2016 06:24AM

Adults can be fired from their jobs or brought to court for harassment for workplace bullying. Employers are required by law to comply with anti bullying policies which are considered part of health and safety regulations. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/health_and_safety/health_safety_work.html

Why is it not the same for schools and teachers who are responsible for the students?

hairyslug · 06-09-2016 06:25AM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Im not talking about social media, im talking about in school bullying

But it does expand out of school, the majority of the time, it will though have originated in the school.

They do need to take more responsibility with it, I have seen it in my own daughters school how a blind eye shown even after parents are reassured that it will be looked at.

How to punish the school, I don't know but yes, the school should be held accountable to what happens, emotionally or physically on their grounds.

Airyfairy12 · 06-09-2016 06:27AM

bearhugs wrote: »

I know you are, I'm just saying that they go hand in hand. Bulling doesn't stop the minute a child walks out the school door in this day and age. Teachers can do their best to curb bullying that they are aware of on the school grounds, but they can't fully police it.

I agree with you that school staff should go above and beyond to stop bullying. I don't think it's as clear cut as you seem to think is all.

I dont think its clear cut but I know from my own days in school being bullied and teachers and school staff doing nothing about it. It still happens and kids are self harming and committing suicide because of it. Schools dont take action and the bullying persists.

Speedwell · 06-09-2016 06:29AM

Schools take responsibility for training the little half-broken colts in their care into young strong horses who can pull in teams. Practically every other aspect of life comes within their ambit. They address a child's mental, physical, emotional, and social health, and frequently spiritual matters as well. They stop food throwing in the cafeteria and talking in class when the teacher is talking; they teach safety while walking along the roadside, avoidance of illegal drugs, and a million other things in and out of the school building. Bullying seems like a very curious omission.

Peregrinus · 06-09-2016 06:30AM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Why is it not the same for schools and teachers who are responsible for the students?

It is the same for schools, basically. Schools have a duty of care towards students, and part of that involves providing a safe environment for students.

The thing is, simply showing that bullying is happening in the school doesn't show that the school has failed in its duty. Schools are not expected to provide an absolute guarantee that no bullying will ever happen - how could they possibly guarantee that? - but to take reasonable steps to avoid the problem, and to address it when it arises. So if one pupil bullies another, the questions to be asked are things like - What did the school do to prevent a culture of bullying arising, or to equip bullied students to defend themselves? Are students equipped to recognise bullying when it occurs, and are they given strategies for dealing with it? Was this incidence of bullying reported to the school, and if so how did the school respond or address it?

Speedwell · 06-09-2016 06:34AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

It is the same for schools. Schools have a duty of care towards students, and part of that involves providing a safe environment for students.

The thing is, simply showing that bullying is happening in the school doesn't show that the school has failed in its duty. Schools are not expected to provide an absolute guarantee that no bullying will ever happen - how could they possibly guarantee that? - but to take reasonable steps to avoid the problem, and to address it when it arises. So if one pupil bullies another, the questions to be asked are things like - What did the school do to prevent a culture of bullying arising, or to equip bullied students to defend themselves? Are students equipped to recognise bullying when it occurs, and are they given strategies for dealing with it? Was this incidence of bullying reported to the school, and if so how did the school respond or address it?

I agree with everything you said, except that I'd add that they need to be much more proactive when the kids are actually at school, and they need to be equipped to be effective and fast responders when a child complains of bullying away from school. Bullying is abuse and the school is the arm of society that most nearly touches the child. So the school's response to bullying exemplifies the attitude of society toward the abused.

The_Kew_Tour · 06-09-2016 06:35AM

Yes if they did nothing about it if they knew about it.

schools have plenty of days off now these days with strikes even though teachers are well paid, but they seem to think they are a law above everyone else

Airyfairy12 · 06-09-2016 06:38AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

It is the same for schools, basically. Schools have a duty of care towards students, and part of that involves providing a safe environment for students.

The thing is, simply showing that bullying is happening in the school doesn't show that the school has failed in its duty. Schools are not expected to provide an absolute guarantee that no bullying will ever happen - how could they possibly guarantee that? - but to take reasonable steps to avoid the problem, and to address it when it arises. So if one pupil bullies another, the questions to be asked are things like - What did the school do to prevent a culture of bullying arising, or to equip bullied students to defend themselves? Are students equipped to recognise bullying when it occurs, and are they given strategies for dealing with it? Was this incidence of bullying reported to the school, and if so how did the school respond or address it?

Exactly but schools don't do this, they turn a blind eye or give the bully a slap on the wrist and ignore the problem. Some schools have very strict bullying policies, bullies are called out, forced to stop or otherwise face serious consequences. Allot of schools dont have the same policies in place so theres a culture of bullying within the school. Holding schools accountable for repeated bullying that happens within the school might encourage them to take bullying more seriously, then maybe there'd be less young suicides and self harm.

Peregrinus · 06-09-2016 06:41AM

Yes. Schools need to be training kids about bullying before bullying happens. Kids need to understand that bullying will not be tolerated; they shouldn't find that out only afterthey have been engaged in bullying behaviours. And kids need to be equipped to recognise bullying when it happens to them, and they need to be confident that if they take the problem to the school, it will be taken seriously and not minimised or dismissed. Again, they need to understand this before they find themselves the victims of bullying.

Just like any other aspect of health and safety, half of the work lies in avoiding the problem arising in the first place, and the other half in responding effectively to it when, despite your efforts, it does. It's important in schools because immaturity, confusion, etc (a) makes kids more prone to engage in bullying behaviours, and (b) leaves them less well-equipped to be resilient when it happens to them. So schools should assume (a) that it will happen, and (b) that it may very seriously affect those to whom it does happen. Therefore, addressing it proactively should be a priority for them.

But, having said all that, I don't think you can simply "hold schools accountable for repeat bullying", if that means assume that, if there is repeat bullying, it is their fault. It may not be. Bullying is not like defective equipment or unsafe procedures, something entirely within the control of the school. Children are independent agents; they do make choices which authority figure encourage or tell them not to make. And the factors I have just pointed to - immaturity, insecurity, confusion, etc - are normal incidents of growing, and not something schools can magic away with a flick of the wand. And the biggest influence on the choices children make is not the school; it's the family. So, no matter how seriously the school takes the responsibility to tackle bullying and how effectively they work at it, they cannot guarantee to insulate every child for ever from being bullied.

spurious · 06-09-2016 06:44AM

Will somebody please think of the parents? Children do not lick it off the stones.

Speedwell · 06-09-2016 06:48AM

Because the biggest influence on children is the family, schools need to hold themselves responsible for enforcing social behavior when the child's family behaves badly.

Airyfairy12 · 06-09-2016 06:55AM

spurious wrote: »

Will somebody please think of the parents? Children do not lick it off the stones.

Of course and not all children have decent parents that will come in and have words with the school principal, class teacher or bullies parents. Sometimes kids are really left alone to deal with it. The parents are always to blame for bully kids, the school has to be responsible in teaching them appropriate behaviour while in school, for their own sake and the sake of those they encounter. Kids are literally dying over this.

kneemos · 06-09-2016 08:18AM

Pretty sure schools have guidelines and is something they would be very aware of.

Speedwell · 06-09-2016 08:21AM

kneemos wrote: »

Pretty sure schools have guidelines and is something they would be very aware of.

Sure, one hopes so. But, having instituted those guidelines and made themselves responsible for teaching and enforcing them, do they also have accountability when their students and/or teachers (because teachers can be bullies too, of course) don't follow them? That is, can they be held liable?

kneemos · 06-09-2016 08:25AM

Speedwell wrote: »

Sure, one hopes so. But, having instituted those guidelines and made themselves responsible for teaching and enforcing them, do they also have accountability when their students and/or teachers (because teachers can be bullies too, of course) don't follow them? That is, can they be held liable?

Can't be held liable for someone else's actions.They can do their best to implement the school policy on bullying but be everywhere all the time.

Can you blame the Guards if someone gets murdered?

Dravokivich · 06-09-2016 08:26AM

Arghus wrote: »

What exactly do you mean when you say "accountable"?

This is something I've been pondering a while.

I know of a kid who was bullied quite a lot in a school. it had been reported to the school and not much action taken. The bullying intensified to the point the kid refused to go and parents had to look for another for him to go into. He subsequently has to repeat first year.

It's quite easy to feel that the bullied kid in that instance had been let down by the school.

Speedwell · 06-09-2016 08:28AM

kneemos wrote: »

Can't be held liable for someone else's actions.They can do their best to implement the school policy on bullying but be everywhere all the time.

Can you blame the Guards if someone gets murdered?

That's a fascinating question. Do the Gardai have a "duty of care" if a known murderer kills someone because they failed to take precautions? What part of the criminal justice system is tasked with teaching people strategies for avoiding committing crimes and for effective defense? I'm not sure the analogy doesn't crumble a bit when examined more closely.

andekwarhola · 06-09-2016 08:41AM

Very hard to implement unless you can catch them in the act?

Know somebody whose kid was being bullied badly in primary school. Kid was in bits over it. Principal called in both sets of parents ' to discuss it' and the parents of the bully just completely stonewalled him/them and denied that it would ever happen. Obviously the little fcuker didn't lick it off a stone.

Samaris · 06-09-2016 08:44AM

Some forms of bullying are absolutely clamped down on, mostly the obvious signs of physical abuse of someone (or when the kid snaps and punches out his tormentor and gets suspended for violence). I can't talk for all-boys schools, but I will say that in all-girls schools, bullying tends to be a lot more subtle than that and often a lot more vicious as teenagers are ridiculously pack animals and will join in. Nothing overt, just snideness, looks, cruel comments, maybe nicking things from a student so they get into trouble for not being ready in class. Nothing that can be easily reported, especially when it feels like everyone is doing it.

Teachers mostly probably think they want to get involved and stop all bullying - and generally, I think they do, it's a huge part of their job, socialising smaller growing demonic creatures. But when actually talking to a bit of a wet blanket of a kid who they might feel brings a lot of her trouble on herself, they may revert to the human status of "I don't want to be hated over this" and either avoid dealing with the bullies or, incredibly, even join in. You don't see it quite as much anymore, but in films from..oh, mid-nineties and before perhaps, the Wise Adult's advice to the kid being bullied is "you have to learn to defend yourself, they're cowards". Actually thump someone because they're tormenting you invisibly will get you punished though. But the outlook is still there under the surface that essentially, the kid's on their own unless a teacher or another student goes above and beyond. And it's accepted that even if they do, it probably won't solve everything and might make it worse.

I don't agree with this, but that's the sort of outlook I've seen around bullying in schools.

andekwarhola · 06-09-2016 08:52AM

Samaris wrote: »

Actually thump someone because they're tormenting you invisibly will get you punished though..

Personally, while I wouldn't actively glorify it, I'd be secretly happy enough to let my kid take a suspension or whatever if he cracked somebody who was bullying him and I'd try and support him.

06-09-2016 09:10AM

In my experience schools take bullying claims very seriously. I know when I had cause (very minor) to approach my son's school they could not have taken the issue more seriously and went out of their way to sort it out.

I would look at it from the other angle btw. If you have an environment that continually tells teachers how useless they are, how overpaid they are, and how lazy they are - then they are going to ask themselves why they should bother doing anything other than what they are contractually obliged to do. I don't blame them

We could also pay them more. 30k a year (when they finally do get a job) is not enough to accept legal liability for bullying by someone else on your watch, or at least not for me it isn't, some might be desperate enough.

Peregrinus · 06-09-2016 09:22AM

Speedwell wrote: »

That's a fascinating question. Do the Gardai have a "duty of care" if a known murderer kills someone because they failed to take precautions? What part of the criminal justice system is tasked with teaching people strategies for avoiding committing crimes and for effective defense? I'm not sure the analogy doesn't crumble a bit when examined more closely.

I don't think the analogy stands up at all. Schools have a much higher degree of control over pupils than the guards do over members of the public, and a much higher degree of control over the school premises than the guards have over the country at large. Plus, creating an environment in which pupils will be safe, will grow and will flourish absolutely is a central part of what a school does. There's no analogous function for the guards. And they have an absolutely explicit duty of care towards students whereas the guards do not.

If you are looking for an analogy, probably a closer one - though it's still not great - is school:workplace. If you suffer homophobic or sexist or whatever bullying in the workplace and your employer, being made aware of the problem, does not take it seriously or attempt to address the issue, might you have a remedy against the employer? Yes, absolutely, you might. If things get so bad that you feel you have to leave, and a Tribunal is persuaded that that was a reasonable response to the situation you found yourself in, and that the situation was compounded or exacerbated by the employer's denial or refusal or failure to address the problem, then you're likely to succeed in an unfair dismissal action on the basis that you were constructively dismissed by your employer's failure to provide a safe working environment.

The parallel with the school isn't exact because the school also has obligations towards the bullying pupil, whose personal responsibility may be diminished by his immaturity or his own psychological issues. Schools can't simply expel you if they conclude that you're a problem that they'd rather not have to deal with. Whereas in a workplace, if you hit a colleague, that's it, you're gone, the same day. So schools do have more latitude than employers to address what is a very difficult problem. But, absolutely, they do have to address it, and vigorously. And if they don't, yes, they may incur liability.

hawkelady · 06-09-2016 09:23AM

kneemos wrote: »

Speedwell wrote: »

Sure, one hopes so. But, having instituted those guidelines and made themselves responsible for teaching and enforcing them, do they also have accountability when their students and/or teachers (because teachers can be bullies too, of course) don't follow them? That is, can they be held liable?[/

Can you blame the Guards if someone gets murdered?

If the murder happens in a Garda station then yes , they would have questions to answer...... Don't you think ?

Should schools be made accountable for bullying?

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