Why did Gardai destroy possible burial site of Irelands longest missing child?

oranbhoy67 · 02-09-2016 11:14PM

bubblypop wrote: »

If it was that important surely you would just call into the station

I live in Letterkenny I don't drive, its not up to me to determine if it is "that" important , I think it potentially could be , the gards might think different , if they were really trying to crack the case they would be chasing every and any lead they can get no matter how small, not continually ignoring requests to call and discuss potential evidence

Going Forward · 03-09-2016 10:37AM

tayto lover wrote: »

I'm sure none of them were involved in the initial inquiry so why would any new Garda want to cover up anything now? If there ever was a cover-up??

For self preservation.

To a actually do something now would be almost impossible for a lone wolf garda.

Because of the "brotherhood" and "collegiality" of the force.

Two men long retired from the force in the documentary at their very best could only bring themselves to talk in coded riddles about the investigation, and when it was assumed they were somehow being critical of the force began furiously back pedalling and praising the integrity of their former colleagues.

Questioning their predecessors ham fisted investigation of any historic case is certainly not something a serving garda reliant in the course of their duty on the trust and support of other members is going to do IMO.

Forget about any cover up, the initial investigation was third rate.

It has to stay that way now because any formal suggestion that it was sub standard suggests that wrong decisions were made at the time, and that the right decisions should now be made.

Going Forward · 03-09-2016 10:40AM

tayto lover wrote: »

The point is that if you find out when he's working you just be there waiting near the door.

No one should have to hang around a garda station and stalk a garda to get some service!

Seth Brundle · 03-09-2016 10:50AM

scumbelina wrote: »

The police in the area are still allegedly under the cosh of some powerful individuals and god knows what else. Just look at Gemma O'D's tweets today.

To be honest, she comes across as an anti-establishment crank!

tayto lover · 03-09-2016 11:49AM

Going Forward wrote: »

No one should have to hang around a garda station and stalk a garda to get some service!

I know that BUT sometimes that's what you have to do especially if you have no proof that he got your message in the first place.

strandroad · 03-09-2016 11:54AM

tayto lover wrote: »

I know that BUT sometimes that's what you have to do especially if you have no proof that he got your message in the first place.

I think that the point is that the Gardai claim to give so much attention to the case while in fact they don't perform their basic duties around it.

tayto lover · 03-09-2016 12:18PM

mhge wrote: »

I think that the point is that the Gardai claim to give so much attention to the case while in fact they don't perform their basic duties around it.

I live in North Louth (Coley Peninsula). We have had murders, disappearances, burglaries, shootings, foot and mouth etc etc for years around here. There is a common belief among the community that the Garda have been under-strength for 40 years in this area and that if you want one in a hurry you would have to go to Dundalk and lasso one. It's different than Dublin City. You'd be lucky to have a Garda car covering the area at times.

The problem is not with the man on the ground it's with the Govt who don't provide enough of them and who don't give them the equipment they need to do their job. Also it seems to us that many of them are very young and still learning and haven't enough experienced lads to learn from. In the present climate it also seems that they have trouble getting through their workload because of new cases coming all the time. We have chatted to them about this when the opportunity arose from time to time.

That's basically why i suggested it was better going and meeting them at the station than waiting for someone who might not have received your message in the first place. The situation is not ideal but it's what we have and we're stuck with it until the recruiting starts again.

tayto lover · 03-09-2016 12:29PM

Going Forward wrote: »

For self preservation.

To a actually do something now would be almost impossible for a lone wolf garda.

Because of the "brotherhood" and "collegiality" of the force.

Two men long retired from the force in the documentary at their very best could only bring themselves to talk in coded riddles about the investigation, and when it was assumed they were somehow being critical of the force began furiously back pedalling and praising the integrity of their former colleagues.

Questioning their predecessors ham fisted investigation of any historic case is certainly not something a serving garda reliant in the course of their duty on the trust and support of other members is going to do IMO.

Forget about any cover up, the initial investigation was third rate.

It has to stay that way now because any formal suggestion that it was sub standard suggests that wrong decisions were made at the time, and that the right decisions should now be made.

I agree with a lot of that post. The retired Garda were part of the original botched investigation. However i can't imagine a new Garda being afraid to find out the real truth. It would be a feather in his cap in my opinion. I don't buy into the control or fear factor.

scumbelina · 03-09-2016 12:42PM

kbannon wrote: »

To be honest, she comes across as an anti-establishment crank!

Maybe because she's the only journo actually questioning the establishment in this country and not writing articles about who Bressie is dating. Not saying she's perfect but some one needs to cover the corruption in this country.

Seth Brundle · 03-09-2016 12:47PM

scumbelina wrote: »

Maybe because she's the only journo actually questioning the establishment in this country and not writing articles about who Bressie is dating. Not saying she's perfect but some one needs to cover the corruption in this country.

That's fine but where is the proof then? It's great that she's championing the cause but has she actually achieved anything apart from a video on YouTube?

strandroad · 03-09-2016 12:48PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I agree with a lot of that post. The retired Garda were part of the original botched investigation. However i can't imagine a new Garda being afraid to find out the real truth. It would be a feather in his cap in my opinion. I don't buy into the control or fear factor.

Well this is what they are up against:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=542028455983131&id=100005279440434

tayto lover · 03-09-2016 12:53PM

mhge wrote: »

Well this is what they are up against:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=542028455983131&id=100005279440434

Interesting.
Have you a date for that decision and under what circumstances was that ruling made in Ballyshannon Court please? I haven't seen that before.

strandroad · 03-09-2016 01:03PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Interesting.
Have you a date for that decision and under what circumstances was that ruling made in Ballyshannon Court please? I haven't seen that before.

It was on Friday, Irish Times and GOD were there but I haven't seen any reporting, it just came up in an unrelated search on social media for me.

tayto lover · 03-09-2016 01:07PM

mhge wrote: »

It was on Friday, Irish Times and GOD were there but I haven't seen any reporting, it just came up in an unrelated search on social media for me.

Surely someone in the media should have the guts to highlight this and the relationship between the parties. Great opportunity to bring this to the fore.
How or in what circumstances did he make this decision?

strandroad · 03-09-2016 01:08PM

kbannon wrote: »

That's fine but where is the proof then? It's great that she's championing the cause but has she actually achieved anything apart from a video on YouTube?

I wonder if this is in her video cache too?
https://twitter.com/gemmaod1/status/771664903035695104?s=09

strandroad · 03-09-2016 01:16PM

I'm going through GOD tweets that might answer your questions...

tayto lover wrote: »

How or in what circumstances did he make this decision?

https://twitter.com/gemmaod1/status/771683462738739200

https://twitter.com/gemmaod1/status/771684197274685441

https://twitter.com/gemmaod1/status/771692840027959296

https://twitter.com/gemmaod1/status/771760789447405568

tayto lover wrote: »

Surely someone in the media should have the guts to highlight this and the relationship between the parties. Great opportunity to bring this to the fore.

https://twitter.com/gemmaod1/status/771686157205770240

Going Forward · 03-09-2016 01:32PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Surely someone in the media should have the guts to highlight this and the relationship between the parties. Great opportunity to bring this to the fore.

Surely.

ArmaniJeanss · 03-09-2016 02:20PM

Someone stands up in court and starts raving about matters unrelated to the case at hand then its kind of obvious they are going to get arrested.
And him asking Go'D to say something makes no sense, that's not how it works in court procedurally. You don't get to suddenly call other people to the stand so its correct that the judge told her to sit down.
Finally it seems perfectly OK if the judge told reporters that they could report on the case but not on any other unrelated allegations that were made.

She kind of comes across as a crank in those tweets.

strandroad · 03-09-2016 02:30PM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

She kind of comes across as a crank in those tweets.

This one too?
https://twitter.com/gemmaod1/status/772008458656813056

ArmaniJeanss · 03-09-2016 02:49PM

mhge wrote: »

This one too?
https://twitter.com/gemmaod1/status/772008458656813056

I'm not sure what her point is.
The judge is perfectly right to tell the media not to report it if the allegation about XXXX is unrelated to the current case ; whether the judge knows XXXX is not relevant, heck if XXXX was the judges brother then it would still be a perfectly normal and sensible direction by the judge.

Where it would be wrong is if the judge was in charge of a case where XXXX is the defendant, because then there would be huge conflict because of their prior relationship. But I don't think that's whats being claimed here?

strandroad · 03-09-2016 03:05PM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Where it would be wrong is if the judge was in charge of a case where XXXX is the defendant, because then there would be huge conflict because of their prior relationship. But I don't think that's whats being claimed here?

The case revolves around an alleged assault by XXXX - the man protesting is the allegedly assaulted female councillor's son who came to her defence:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=284697518575921&id=100011070254271

It's not clear what the court case is about exactly and who is on the stand - but should XXXX's business partner preside over it in the first place?

Going Forward · 03-09-2016 03:11PM

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/film-maker-told-to-leave-court-419189.html

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/journalist-is-ordered-by-judge-to-leave-the-court-35017890.html

"We are getting legal advice from Gemma O Doherty"

Judge Kilrane adjourned to September 30 and requested gardaí to attempt to find the letter. He said the case will be heard by another judge.....

Laika123 · 03-09-2016 09:58PM

Sorry this post is a bit off topic, but a quick google and putting 2+2 together equals a big clique and former councillor Florence Doherty/McNulty seemed to be stepping on a few of the cliques toes.

Carrying on from where Judge Kevin Kilrane was the judge in the case of former councillor Florence Doherty/McNulty who had accused his old pal Sean McEniff of assaulting her, which in turn saw her accused of assaulting a garda and in turn had her son locked up for contempt of court and Gemma O'D told to leave court.

Please bear with me, I'm just as confused as anybody.

Ok so I'm assuming the judge should have admitted his conflict of interest / cronyism with McEniff and had the case heard by another judge, like if a member of a jury is picked and the accused is an old pal, he'd be relieved of jury service.

Anyway continuing to untangle this mess I've got my head into, I noticed it's not the first time judge Kilrane has had a conflict of interest that he decided not to disclose:

"Retrial ordered in case where judge had been accused man's lawyer.

However, quashing the orders convicting the man, Mr Justice Birmingham said a reasonable observer might have decided it would have been "very difficult for Judge Kilrane to put out of his mind his prior knowledge" of the man."
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/retrial-ordered-in-case-where-judge-had-been-accused-mans-lawyer-26785954.html

Then a garda case dismissed for upholding the law against a superior officer.

Case 'motivated by malice' dismissed by Judge Kilrane
Judge Kilrane not only dismissed the case against the Superintendent, he also called for an investigation to be carried out into the matter describing the actions of Gda Killian, who is presently on sick leave, as "driven out of malice"

Gda Killian said that she had issued a fixed penalty notice for the offence, which had not been paid and a summons was issued to Superintendent English.
http://www.leitrimobserver.ie/news/home/209809/case--motivated-by-malice-.html

Ok where do I go next,

Right former councillor Florence Doherty/McNulty has a bit of history with the clique.

Mayor of Bundoran branded "an asshole" by fellow town councillor
Apparently there was a general consensus that the Draft Policies in question should just be approved without any kind of discussion or question, but Ms Doherty felt that the issue needed to be talked about a bit more.

“I think this is very important. There seems to be very little here outlining the procedure for follow up of issues raised at meetings. I think this document should also make it clear that members should make clear their hidden agendas, their cronies and their vested interests, to protect whistle blowers,” said Ms Doherty.

In response to her the Mayor said that there was no need for discussion as a proposal to adopt the policies had already been put forward and seconded.

“Thank God this country doesn’t need whistle blowers,” he said.

“Of course it does, you asshole,” retorted Ms Doherty.
http://www.joe.ie/uncategorized/mayor-of-bundoran-branded-an-asshole-by-fellow-town-councillor/33415

Councillor who missed vote tries to block land rezoning
she missed the vital council meeting in the Co Donegal resort last week because she was held up collecting her new-born grandson from Sligo General Hospital, She said she missed the meeting because there was a three-hour delay by the hospital in discharging her grandson.
The land is owned by prominent hotelier Brian McEniff.
Ms Doherty's absence sparked local speculation. She would have been expected to oppose rezoning.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/councillor-who-missed-vote-tries-to-block-land-rezoning-1.1011892

So she missed an important meeting because Sligo general Hospital delayed the discharge of her newly born grandson by 3 hours, I wonder could McEniff had made a little call to the hospital??

McEniff threatens to resign from HSE
Donegal County Councillor Sean McEniff has threatened to resign from the board of the Health Services Executive as campaigners for the retention and expansion of cancer services in Sligo General Hospital

http://www.derryjournal.com/news/mceniff-threatens-to-resign-from-hse-1-2118199

There just seems to be a little over the top "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" in the North West.

Going Forward · 03-09-2016 10:19PM

Laika123 wrote: »

Sorry this post is a bit off topic, but a quick google and putting 2+2 together equals a big clique and former councillor Florence Doherty/McNulty seemed to be stepping on a few of the cliques toes.

Carrying on from where Judge Kevin Kilrane was the judge in the case of former councillor Florence Doherty/McNulty who had accused his old pal Sean McEniff of assaulting her, which in turn saw her accused of assaulting a garda and in turn had her son locked up for contempt of court and Gemma O'D told to leave court.

Please bear with me, I'm just as confused as anybody.

Ok so I'm assuming the judge should have admitted his conflict of interest / cronyism with McEniff and had the case heard by another judge, like if a member of a jury is picked and the accused is an old pal, he'd be relieved of jury service.

Anyway continuing to untangle this mess I've got my head into, I noticed it's not the first time judge Kilrane has had a conflict of interest that he decided not to disclose:

"Retrial ordered in case where judge had been accused man's lawyer.

However, quashing the orders convicting the man, Mr Justice Birmingham said a reasonable observer might have decided it would have been "very difficult for Judge Kilrane to put out of his mind his prior knowledge" of the man."
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/retrial-ordered-in-case-where-judge-had-been-accused-mans-lawyer-26785954.html

Then a garda case dismissed for upholding the law against a superior officer.

Case 'motivated by malice' dismissed by Judge Kilrane
Judge Kilrane not only dismissed the case against the Superintendent, he also called for an investigation to be carried out into the matter describing the actions of Gda Killian, who is presently on sick leave, as "driven out of malice"

Gda Killian said that she had issued a fixed penalty notice for the offence, which had not been paid and a summons was issued to Superintendent English.
http://www.leitrimobserver.ie/news/home/209809/case--motivated-by-malice-.html

Ok where do I go next,

Right former councillor Florence Doherty/McNulty has a bit of history with the clique.

All relevant to the mess that seems to be public governance in that area.

Patricia McCafferty also throws a few spanners in the works.....

https://twitter.com/gemmaod1/status/762648734249418752

mikeymouse · 03-09-2016 10:46PM

"requested gardaí to attempt to find the letter"
They'll do that alright.

ShowMeTheCash · 03-09-2016 11:17PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Surely someone in the media should have the guts to highlight this and the relationship between the parties. Great opportunity to bring this to the fore.
How or in what circumstances did he make this decision?

I think perhaps the Ireland you think you live in and the Ireland you actually live in differ somewhat!

What happens in Ireland is no different to what happens in other countries like the UK.

When the establishment feel threatened or end up in the firing line they do what most establishments do turn inward and go about covering up, intimidation and whatever else it takes to try and come out the other side unscathed.

Look at the Hillsborough disaster in the UK or Bloody Sunday in county Derry.....

The main problem we have in Ireland is on top of the establishment i.e. Politicians, gardai and people of wealth we also have a monolpolised press who are also part of the "establishment"

So what happens this stuff never get's reported like it should, if it in anyways goes against the establishment!
And when we do get people willing to stick their neck out like GOD they are branded anti-establishment cranks or conspiracy nuts or a bit like what happens in this thread people spend all day arguing over the motivations of GOD and completely dismiss what is going on.

We need more diversity in the press, people willing to ensure people of power do not continuously abuse that power and simply get away with it!

Thing to remember people like GOD put themselves in harms way buy trying to question the establishment people might think she is a crank but she has highlighted actual gardai corruption and is challenging powerful people, I can totally understand if she feels threatened and why she might tweet almost every interaction!

Going Forward · 04-09-2016 12:25AM

Why is Judge Kilrane also known as Judge Kilraine?

http://m.derryjournal.com/news/judge-kilraine-starts-today-in-donegal-1-2127210

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/retrial-ordered-in-case-where-judge-had-been-accused-mans-lawyer-26785954.html

http://www.barrylaw.ie/annelies-ilena-press-release/

They are one and the same person, with a varying surname????

ArmaniJeanss · 04-09-2016 01:31AM

Laika123 wrote: »

Sorry this post is a bit off topic, but a quick google and putting 2+2 together equals a big clique and former councillor Florence Doherty/McNulty seemed to be stepping on a few of the cliques toes.

Carrying on from where Judge Kevin Kilrane was the judge in the case of former councillor Florence Doherty/McNulty who had accused his old pal Sean McEniff of assaulting her, which in turn saw her accused of assaulting a garda and in turn had her son locked up for contempt of court and Gemma O'D told to leave court.

Please bear with me, I'm just as confused as anybody.

Ok so I'm assuming the judge should have admitted his conflict of interest / cronyism with McEniff and had the case heard by another judge, like if a member of a jury is picked and the accused is an old pal, he'd be relieved of jury service.
.

The McNultys are on trial for breach of the peace and assault of a garda.
On the basic facts of this there would seem no need for this judge to recuse himself, there is no conflict.
Yesterday one of the defendants raised a McEniff issue and also a late discovery issue. The judge has a) delayed the trial to give the discovery issue more time and b) recused himself as there is now a potential conflict.
I'm struggling to see what the judge has done wrong here, he appears to have played it with a straight bat.

As for other instances where his courts verdict was overturned on appeal etc,
this is not very remarkable and happens to all judges.

Laika123 wrote: »

Councillor who missed vote tries to block land rezoning
she missed the vital council meeting in the Co Donegal resort last week because she was held up collecting her new-born grandson from Sligo General Hospital, She said she missed the meeting because there was a three-hour delay by the hospital in discharging her grandson.
The land is owned by prominent hotelier Brian McEniff.
Ms Doherty's absence sparked local speculation. She would have been expected to oppose rezoning.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/councillor-who-missed-vote-tries-to-block-land-rezoning-1.1011892

So she missed an important meeting because Sligo general Hospital delayed the discharge of her newly born grandson by 3 hours, I wonder could McEniff had made a little call to the hospital??

You know what, I read that article Saturday afternoon and took a totally different interpretation of it than you did, and read into it that the IT was implying something else altogether.

Going Forward · 04-09-2016 03:57AM

kbannon wrote: »

That's fine but where is the proof then? It's great that she's championing the cause but has she actually achieved anything apart from a video on YouTube?

She has succeeded in getting the Mary Boyle case some publicity and ensuring the Gardai will shoot themselves in the foot if they are ever to admit any fault with the original investigation.

Fault which has been already admitted by an investigating officer and both in the documentary claiming a politician attempted to make an intervention in the investigation.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/suspected-mary-boyle-crime-scene-trampled-upon-at-time-1.2762184

A classic Catch 22 situation.

So from the point of view of official Ireland, best wait for it to all die down and no more will ever need to be said about it.

That's what G O'D has achieved.

Not bad going IMHO.

04-09-2016 10:56AM

Going Forward wrote: »

She has succeeded in getting the Mary Boyle case some publicity and ensuring the Gardai will shoot themselves in the foot if they are ever to admit any fault with the original investigation.

Fault which has been already admitted by an investigating officer and both in the documentary claiming a politician attempted to make an intervention in the investigation.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/suspected-mary-boyle-crime-scene-trampled-upon-at-time-1.2762184

A classic Catch 22 situation.

So from the point of view of official Ireland, best wait for it to all die down and no more will ever need to be said about it.

That's what G O'D has achieved.

Not bad going IMHO.

And therein lies the problem, does it not?

In a modern democratic Country, where fault has been admitted, surely there should be redress - not cover-up, stick your fingers in yours ears, shout la,la,la, - anti-establishment, and wait for it to go away?

I don't like what little I've seen of G O'Ds attitude, but, if the situation hasn't been resolved in 40 years, I find it hard to believe there was any real desire to resolve it for at least 30 of those years..... especially if Gardaí wont even make themselves available to listen to potential evidence..

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

Why did Gardai destroy possible burial site of Irelands longest missing child?

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