garden room - planning permission?

jsabina · 31-08-2016 10:07PM #1

Hi everybody,
sorry if the question is stupid or already asked.. I did a bit of research but unsure.

If I put a small log cabin / garden room, insulated and with a bathroom in my garden, do I need a planning permission?

To give a bit of background, I bought a house in Dublin with a big enough garden, neighbors have extensions.
I am not looking to have an extension but a separate room at the end of the garden.

Nobody will live there, apart from a cat :rolleyes: and it will be used mainly as home office or anyway extra room, but not a permanent living space.

thank you!

Gumbo · 31-08-2016 11:59PM

It's classed as a domestic shed. So shed exemption limits apply.

Max internal area of 25 Sq. M.
Max height of 3m with flat roof or 4 m with pitched roof.
No windows facing the boundaries.
Building regulations do not apply.

Calahonda52 · 01-09-2016 06:08PM

not crossing kc here but the following bothers me a little
home office or anyway extra room, but not a permanent living space

The home office if used for bringing folk into for consultations etc will be problematic, as will any use that give rise to the possibility that it is being used as a habitable space

Gumbo · 01-09-2016 08:14PM

Calahonda52 wrote: »

not crossing kc here but the following bothers me a little
home office or anyway extra room, but not a permanent living space

The home office if used for bringing folk into for consultations etc will be problematic, as will any use that give rise to the possibility that it is being used as a habitable space

From my Planning Enforcement experience, once there's no kitchen and bed in it, then its not habitable. Home office, I would assume, someone doing their own paperwork, drawing, painting etc But yes, if it were to attract heavy traffic from members of the public, you could have an issue.

Pkiernan · 01-09-2016 09:20PM

Can't see how you can get away without planning g if you're adding a bathroom.

jsabina · 01-09-2016 09:22PM

no no there will be no external people, it's just for my sister and me and the cat
We might put a sofa, chair and desk and toilet, but it's a sort of home office.
So I believe I will need to connect to my electricity and plumbing system.
no kitchen or anything else
I am interested in knowing the rule also because if I will sell the house in the future I don't want of course any problem.

jsabina · 01-09-2016 09:23PM

Pkiernan wrote: »

Can't see how you can get away without planning g if you're adding a bathroom.

ah the bathroom would be the problem for planning?
I didn't know that..
If this is the case I might think without it.. it was just thinking of rainy days and working there she wouldn't have to cross the garden to go into the house..

Gumbo · 01-09-2016 09:44PM

Pkiernan wrote: »

Can't see how you can get away without planning g if you're adding a bathroom.

jsabina wrote: »

ah the bathroom would be the problem for planning?
I didn't know that..
If this is the case I might think without it.. it was just thinking of rainy days and working there she wouldn't have to cross the garden to go into the house..

The bathroom will not be a planning issue.

Pkiernan · 01-09-2016 09:47PM

kceire wrote: »

The bathroom will not be a planning issue.

Try telling Fingal CoCo you want to put an extra toilet on to their sewer infrastructure and see what they tell you.

Gumbo · 01-09-2016 09:49PM

Pkiernan wrote: »

Try telling Fingal CoCo you want to put an extra toilet on to their sewer infrastructure and see what they tell you.

Have done it many times before. In an urban setting, you connect to the existing network on your own property.
If the OP is really worried, he could lodge a Section 5 Application.
What LA is it?

Spanish Eyes · 01-09-2016 09:50PM

kceire wrote: »

The bathroom will not be a planning issue.

Why? Could you not elaborate without being secretive about it.

I thought a person was precluded from building a cabin/outbuilding in the back garden (unattached to the house) with a bathroom out the back in Dublin recently. Cannot be habitable (rentable!) but ok for office or playroom kind of thing is what I understood.

Thanks anyway.

Gumbo · 01-09-2016 09:53PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Why?

Why not?

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Could you not elaborate without being secretive about it.

No secrets about it. If someone can show me in the Planning Regulations that a toilet is unauthorized, i'll swallow my pride and admit I'm wrong (we are not always correct).

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I thought a person was precluded from building a cabin/outbuilding in the back garden (unattached to the house) with a bathroom out the back in Dublin recently. Cannot be habitable (rentable!) but ok for office or playroom kind of thing is what I understood.

But Section 41H of the P&D Act should allow this type of works.
In fact I personally know of a few Planning Enforcement cases where the home owner had to remove the kitchen and beds, but the ensuite was fine. By its nature, a bathroom is not considered a habitable room.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Thanks anyway.

No problem.

Walter2016 · 01-09-2016 10:00PM

A little off topic - Why can't they make it easier to allow a habitable garden room that could house a student.

My mother has large garden near ucd - she wouldn't like a student living in the house, but if she could install a garden structure of about 30sqm with single bedroom, shower and lounge, she'd love to house a student in it.

Win win for both.

These structures are relatively cheap, easy to install and would certainly suit some people.

unkel · 01-09-2016 10:04PM

Sorry for hijacking your thread, jsabina, but my needs are very similar, so we might as well share this thread if that's ok with you?

kceire wrote: »

It's classed as a domestic shed. So shed exemption limits apply.

Max internal area of 25 Sq. M.
Max height of 3m with flat roof or 4 m with pitched roof.
No windows facing the boundaries.
Building regulations do not apply.

My future shed will comply with all that. Can the shed be the full width of the property? As in, my semi D house is about 8.5m wide, the garden about 10m wide (side entrance of about 1.5m wide). Can the shed be 10m wide?

Also, I already have a conservatory extension of about 15m2 (internal area). Is the exemption for this extension separate from the one for a domestic shed? So I can have both?

My shed will need a toilet and a sink. It will mainly be a home office and a gym (+ hopefully man cave

). No shower, no kitchen. Are there any other restrictions?

I'm not planning to do this very soon, but do you expect any of the current regulations to change in the next year or two?

Gumbo · 01-09-2016 10:05PM

Walter2016 wrote: »

A little off topic - Why can't they make it easier to allow a habitable garden room that could house a student.

My mother has large garden near ucd - she wouldn't like a student living in the house, but if she could install a garden structure of about 30sqm with single bedroom, shower and lounge, she'd love to house a student in it.

Win win for both.

These structures are relatively cheap, easy to install and would certainly suit some people.

Because it will be abused by a few who will stick the worse type of shed possible to house the most amount of people as possible.

They should relax the granny flat arrangements I think, to allow detached structures at the rear of the property but that's an argument that people should highlight when DCC advertised for submissions to their Development Plan.

Gumbo · 01-09-2016 10:11PM

unkel wrote: »

Sorry for hijacking your thread, jsabina, but my needs are very similar, so we might as well share this thread if that's ok with you?

Good Call

unkel wrote: »

My future shed will comply with all that. Can the shed be the full width of the property? As in, my semi D house is about 8.5m wide, the garden about 10m wide (side entrance of about 1.5m wide). Can the shed be 10m wide?

Yes, once it falls under the exemption area and height and its to the rear of the property. Using the boundary walls is a civil issue between you and your neighbours, but technically the P&D Regulations stipulate the exempted structure has to be within the curtilidge of your site.

unkel wrote: »

Also, I already have a conservatory extension of about 15m2 (internal area). Is the exemption for this extension separate from the one for a domestic shed? So I can have both?

Yes, 2 separate exemptions, and you are entitled to enjoy both exemptions together. so in theory you can have a 40 Sq. M extension and a 25 Sq. M shed providing you meet all the other criteria.

unkel wrote: »

My shed will need a toilet and a sink. It will mainly be a home office and a gym (+ hopefully man cave ). No shower, no kitchen. Are there any other restrictions?

I wouldn't risk fitting it out with a kitchen, as it could be deemed habitable then. I would of course wire for smoke detection, CO Detection and wire for an alarm (security) to be connected back to main house alarm.

unkel wrote: »

I'm not planning to do this very soon, but do you expect any of the current regulations to change in the next year or two?

They haven't changed since before I was born, so no, I wouldn't expect them to get any tighter.

Spanish Eyes · 01-09-2016 10:11PM

Walter2016 wrote: »

A little off topic - Why can't they make it easier to allow a habitable garden room that could house a student.

My mother has large garden near ucd - she wouldn't like a student living in the house, but if she could install a garden structure of about 30sqm with single bedroom, shower and lounge, she'd love to house a student in it.

Win win for both.

These structures are relatively cheap, easy to install and would certainly suit some people.

According to previous poster there should be no problem. No kitchen though, but a bathroom seems to be ok.

I'm sure the student could cope with a tabletop halogen cooker, a sink, and a microwave,

Like yourself, I just don't know why more aren't put in.

I reckon there is a snag there somewhere though. Has to be.

Gumbo · 01-09-2016 10:13PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

According to previous poster there should be no problem. No kitchen though, but a bathroom seems to be ok.

I'm sure the student could cope with a tabletop halogen cooker, a sink, and a microwave,

Like yourself, I just don't know why more aren't put in.

I reckon there is a snag there somewhere though. Has to be.

Nope, you are not reading the posts correctly. Where will the student sleep? Once you allow the sleeping within a shed, it becomes habitable and requires planning permission, and it will be refused if its not connected to the main dwelling.

Walter2016 · 01-09-2016 10:13PM

kceire wrote: »

Because it will be abused by a few who will stick the worse type of shed possible to house the most amount of people as possible.

They should relax the granny flat arrangements I think, to allow detached structures at the rear of the property but that's an argument that people should highlight when DCC advertised for submissions to their Development Plan.

Easily sorted by having agreed structures that are pre-approved. Granny flats I'd agree also should be permitted under current exemption, again once certain protection conditions were followed.

For many it isn't a case of earning a few bob, but security and company especially if they live alone, without the intrusion of someone living in the main house.

Gumbo · 01-09-2016 10:17PM

Walter2016 wrote: »

Easily sorted by having agreed structures that are pre-approved. Granny flats I'd agree also should be permitted under current exemption, again once certain protection conditions were followed.

This is where I would disagree, I don't think the Planning laws should allow this. It will lead to thousands of structures popping up in gardens, spaces that were not designed to take them. Lack of private open space, and an over burden on resources. Then you have no control over them, and what happens when one trys to sell one of these units.

Walter2016 wrote: »

For many it isn't a case of earning a few bob, but security and company especially if they live alone, without the intrusion of someone living in the main house.

This is what our current Granny Flat guidelines allow. They already restrict the use to family members, but it cannot be policed or enforced properly.

BryanF · 02-09-2016 07:17AM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

According to previous poster there should be no problem. No kitchen though, but a bathroom seems to be ok.

I'm sure the student could cope with a tabletop halogen cooker, a sink, and a microwave,

Like yourself, I just don't know why more aren't put in.

I reckon there is a snag there somewhere though. Has to be.

It's against the law. Any garden shed is ancillary to dwellings use - not for renting to students.

fitz · 28-09-2016 02:14PM

kceire wrote: »

It's classed as a domestic shed. So shed exemption limits apply.

Max internal area of 25 Sq. M.
Max height of 3m with flat roof or 4 m with pitched roof.
No windows facing the boundaries.
Building regulations do not apply.

Are you sure on the 25 Sq. M. limit applying to internal space? Is it not overall footprint?

sydthebeat · 28-09-2016 02:17PM

fitz wrote: »

Are you sure on the 25 Sq. M. limit applying to internal space? Is it not overall footprint?

no, its the internal floor area.

Gumbo · 28-09-2016 02:25PM

fitz wrote: »

Are you sure on the 25 Sq. M. limit applying to internal space? Is it not overall footprint?

Yes I'm sure. It's he internal floor area.

Angry bird · 28-09-2016 03:41PM

Yes internal floor area, including any internal walls

fitz · 28-09-2016 09:48PM

Angry bird wrote: »

Yes internal floor area, including any internal walls

Someone at Kildare CC told me it was external walls.
I'm curious because I'm looking into a garden studio design, with a decoupled room-in-a-room dressing for 50-60db of sound transmission loss, so if planning exemption is based on internal size, I wouldn't lose nearly as much floorspace to the additional wall thickness, which would be great.

Gumbo · 28-09-2016 09:50PM

fitz wrote: »

Someone at Kildare CC told me it was external walls.
I'm curious because I'm looking into a garden studio design, with a decoupled room-in-a-room dressing for 50-60db of sound transmission loss, so if planning exemption is based on internal size, I wouldn't lose nearly as much floorspace to the additional wall thickness, which would be great.

It is internally measured from the inside face of the external walls.
You or they probably mis pronounced or misheard the advice, the external walls do come into play, but it is the area within the external walls.

fitz · 28-09-2016 10:37PM

kceire wrote: »

It is internally measured from the inside face of the external walls.
You or they probably mis pronounced or misheard the advice, the external walls do come into play, but it is the area within the external walls.

OK, so if the soundproofing design is an external brick wall --> air gap filled with rock wool --> insulated stud wall with a couple of layers of plasterboard, it will be measured from the inside of the brick wall?

Gumbo · 28-09-2016 10:52PM

fitz wrote: »

OK, so if the soundproofing design is an external brick wall --> air gap filled with rock wool --> insulated stud wall with a couple of layers of plasterboard, it will be measured from the inside of the brick wall?

Inside of the finished wall.
So let's say I build a shed and fit insulation inside. I measure the area of that shed and it is 26 Sq. M. I am over the exemption limits. So now, I add an extra layer of insulation to one wall, thus reducing the floor area to 25 Sq. M. I am now in compliance.

fitz · 28-09-2016 11:22PM

kceire wrote: »

Inside of the finished wall.
So let's say I build a shed and fit insulation inside. I measure the area of that shed and it is 26 Sq. M. I am over the exemption limits. So now, I add an extra layer of insulation to one wall, thus reducing the floor area to 25 Sq. M. I am now in compliance.

So, if they are double leaf walls, like this (http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/green-glue-wall-types-double-stud.jpg), but with the external facing leaf made using brick rather than studs ( in order to add mass and improve sound transmission loss)....

Is the area measured from where the plasterboard stops on the internal leaf?

Or would it be measured from the internal side of the internal stud wall before plasterboard goes on?

Sorry if these are stupid questions, but space will be at a premium, so will want to maximise as much as possible...

Gumbo · 29-09-2016 11:15AM

fitz wrote: »

So, if they are double leaf walls, like this (http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/green-glue-wall-types-double-stud.jpg), but with the external facing leaf made using brick rather than studs ( in order to add mass and improve sound transmission loss)....

Is the area measured from where the plasterboard stops on the internal leaf?

Or would it be measured from the internal side of the internal stud wall before plasterboard goes on?

Sorry if these are stupid questions, but space will be at a premium, so will want to maximise as much as possible...

Yes.

Don't be afraid to ask questions, that's how we all learn and that's what the forum is for.

garden room - planning permission?

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