Burka ban

recedite · 30-08-2016 02:12PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Sarkozy making the legality of "burkini bans" an election issue.
Some media are reporting it as "a lurch to the right" in the run-up to a presidential election, but Sarkozy has been consistently outspoken against the Burqa for many years.

starshine1234 · 30-08-2016 02:49PM

looksee wrote: »

Even the fact that you suggest my post is denigration, rather than arguing the point, is indicative of what I am saying.

Your original post had no content other than to describe my ideas, all of them, as conspiracy theories.
What point did you make that can be argued against?
The extremely broad point that everything I believe is a conspiracy theory?

looksee wrote:

You say that your opinions are based on science, logic and facts; could you then expand on them a bit please? I will agree with you on climate change, though I think it should be dealt with rather than just saying 'the end is nigh'.

I never said the 'end is nigh'. I'd suggest that that's emotive use of language designed to belittle my point. Climate change has the potential to destroy our civilisations. If our coastal cities flood there could well be war. I didn't say the human race would be rendered extinct. If I did perhaps your point might have merit.

'looksee wrote:

Islam as interpreted by the vast majority of Muslims is not really a problem; the problem is with the extremists.

I suspect you're not a Muslim. But here you are speaking for them. It's a fact, proven by surveys, that many mainstream muslims believe in things like death for apostacy, and death for many other things. Those by definition are extreme viewpoints and they are held by a majority of muslims in many countries. Islam by its very nature is extremist. As was Catholicism of course. And Nazism.

looksee · 30-08-2016 05:41PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

starshine1234 wrote: »

Your original post had no content other than to describe my ideas, all of them, as conspiracy theories.
What point did you make that can be argued against?
The extremely broad point that everything I believe is a conspiracy theory?

You were the one who threw a whole lot of things into the discussion that had nothing to do with burqa bans, most of which are more usually linked to conspiracy theories than science. I did however go on to say that I actually agreed with some of your points, up to a point, but you said you were arguing from logic, fact and science, without actually demonstrating any of these.

I never said the 'end is nigh'. I'd suggest that that's emotive use of language designed to belittle my point. Climate change has the potential to destroy our civilisations. If our coastal cities flood there could well be war. I didn't say the human race would be rendered extinct. If I did perhaps your point might have merit.

I figured you would pick up on that phrase, but really talking about destruction of civilisations by climate change (which has nothing to do with Islam) is a bit dramatic.

I suspect you're not a Muslim. But here you are speaking for them. It's a fact, proven by surveys, that many mainstream muslims believe in things like death for apostacy, and death for many other things. Those by definition are extreme viewpoints and they are held by a majority of muslims in many countries. Islam by its very nature is extremist. As was Catholicism of course. And Nazism.

No, I am not Muslim, it would not take much research to establish that, I am an atheist, that does not mean I cannot argue for people's rights to believe what they wish, even if I think it is stupid. Where is your scientific evidence that 'a majority of Muslims' hold these extreme viewpoints? Catholicism - and indeed Christianity in general are not extremist. Some Catholics are extremist, some Christians of other kinds are extremist. Not all. And what does Naziism have to do with anything?

starshine1234 · 30-08-2016 07:25PM

looksee wrote: »

Where is your scientific evidence that 'a majority of Muslims' hold these extreme viewpoints?

Come on, I told you in my post.

Surveys.

Surveys have been posted on threads showing huge support among muslims for extreme ideas, like death for apostates, and high approval rating for sharia law. Sharia law is extreme.

If you intend to ask me to produce all of these surveys I'd suggest you're asking me to prove fairly obvious things, like that the sky is blue.

looksee · 30-08-2016 07:38PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Just link me to one of them?

robindch · 30-08-2016 10:13PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

starshine1234 wrote: »

If you intend to ask me to produce all of these surveys I'd suggest you're asking me to prove fairly obvious things, like that the sky is blue.

The sky isn't blue - though it can look like it is, if you're a human with fairly normal eyes, without glasses, looking upwards from ground-level, during the daytime, when there are no clouds.

Starshine, here in A+A, when you make some substantive claim and somebody calls you out on it, it's customary to link to some reliable data set which validates the claim. If you don't or can't validate the claim, then it's deemed to have lapsed and other posters are free to proceed as if the claim was never made.

I trust this helps.

starshine1234 · 30-08-2016 10:34PM

I don't claim to be particularily good at assembling proofs.

starshine1234 · 30-08-2016 10:40PM

recedite · 30-08-2016 10:43PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

The surveys are numerous and well known.
For example Pew.

In 17 of the 23 countries where the question was asked, at least half of Muslims say sharia is the revealed word of God....
in six of the 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis, at least half of those who favor making Islamic law the official law also support executing apostates.

starshine1234 · 30-08-2016 10:47PM

I agree.

I feel it is well known that muslims take their faith seriously. Their faith is extreme. Therefore, many muslims have extreme viewpoints.

Of course, everything is relative.

What seems extreme in one case may not in another.

I am struck that in China the state forces its citizens to have abortions, whereas in Ireland the state prevents people from having abortions.

I am only mentioning that last point to illustrate that different cultures can have very different approaches to the same issue. It is not correct to say that one approach in better. It would seem to be subjective, rather than objective.

recedite · 30-08-2016 10:55PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Snap!! Not quick enough; Pew already mentioned.

OK how about this You tube video. "Ordinary British Muslims" (not extremists) are asked if they agree with women being kept in their place, stoning of adulterers (including women who have been raped?), and death to apostates.
Answer at 3.50 in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV710c1dgpU

smacl · 31-08-2016 08:41AM

I'm religious and support the ban

recedite wrote: »

Snap!! Not quick enough; Pew already mentioned.

OK how about this You tube video. "Ordinary British Muslims" (not extremists) are asked if they agree with women being kept in their place, stoning of adulterers (including women who have been raped?), and death to apostates.
Answer at 3.50 in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV710c1dgpU

"Ordinary British Muslims" is something of a a problem here, as the meeting was organised by Fahad Qureshi founder of the Salafist Islam.Net, and from what I gather a large proportion of audiences to his events are already followers of Islam Net. While Qureshi has a reasonably sized following and declares himself a moderate, he's pushing a Salafist agenda which is clearly fundamentalist. As such I don't think its reasonable to suggest his followers are typical of the majority of ordinary British Muslims.

Probably fair to say the attitude is representative of British Muslims with strong Salafist sympathies though. It is very difficult to figure out what this proportion is as the bulk of the commentary is either strongly pro-Islam or strongly anti-Islam. Interesting survey here showing attitudes of British Muslims which also includes a control sample of the same size as the main data. By comparison to the video for example, 5% of British Muslims would go with stoning adulterers (as would 2% of the control group), while 79% would condemn it (95% of control group). Reading the survey would suggest to me that British Muslims are more homophobic than the population at large but only a small percentage of them, as indicated by sympathy to violent terrorist acts, are radical.

looksee · 31-08-2016 09:27AM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Starshine seems to be under the impression that the PEW reports support his argument. They do not, there is far too much information missing or ignored to give them any credibility at all.

starshine1234 · 31-08-2016 09:41AM

The PEW reports do support my argument.

Either they support it, or they provide no support one way or the other, or they refute my argument. There are no other alternatives.

They don't refute my argument.
They aren't neutral in respect of my argument.

Therefore, as a perfectly logical and unassailable conclusion, they must support my argument.

It's like Sherlock Holmes correctly pointed out, if you have ruled out all the alternatives then whatever remains must be the truth.

Logic is great.

Delirium · 31-08-2016 09:55AM

I'm religious and support the ban

starshine1234 wrote: »

You're missing data, i.e. what % of Muslims support sharia law being the law of the land in each of those countries. We don't know if the 89% in Pakistan is 89% of 1% or 100% (or anything between) of the Muslim population.

So unless we can see that additional data, then I'd have to agree with looksee and say atm the data (due to it being incomplete) doesn't support your assertion 'majority of Muslims hold extreme views'.

starshine1234 · 31-08-2016 10:02AM

LOL.

I posted two graphs.

The first one provides the info you're looking for.

It seems to be that people are sticking their fingers in their ears.

Full on appeasement mode.

If I said that Nazism was a totalitarian type regime which dislikes certain minorites I suspect nobody would ask me to prove my claim.

I consider it no more controversial to say the same thing about Islam. I consider that people can only refuse to see this due to deliberately and wilfully ignoring obvious facts and by ignoring the real world.

Head in the sand type stuff.

Delirium · 31-08-2016 10:20AM

I'm religious and support the ban

starshine1234 wrote: »

LOL.

I posted two graphs.

The first one provides the info you're looking for.

It seems to be that people are sticking their fingers in their ears.

Full on appeasement mode.

If I said that Nazism was a totalitarian type regime which dislikes certain minorites I suspect nobody would ask me to prove my claim.

I consider it no more controversial to say the same thing about Islam. I consider that people can only refuse to see this due to deliberately and wilfully ignoring obvious facts and by ignoring the real world.

Head in the sand type stuff.

no need to get snippy, I missed the first graph.

shall have a look at it now.

magicbastarder · 31-08-2016 10:27AM

I'm religious and support the ban

interestingly, when i clicked on the thread, it brought me straight to the second graph also, and i also did not see the first one.

smacl · 31-08-2016 10:30AM

I'm religious and support the ban

recedite wrote: »

The surveys are numerous and well known.
For example Pew.

No doubt that Islam is often pretty severe and by times downright barbaric. Following the Amnesty site shows some horrific cases on a regular basis. I think though if we're talking about Islam in Europe we need to look at its behaviour in that context. So for example, also from the same Pew research we get;

Pew wrote:

in two regions, far fewer Muslims say Islamic law should be endorsed by their governments: Southern and Eastern Europe (18%) and Central Asia (12%).

Pew also not that given growth rates, Muslims will reach 10% of the population of Europe by 2050, so even then the prospect of Sharia law is non-existent. I think some of the anti-Islamic arguments in this thread lack a bit of perspective in this regard.

Delirium · 31-08-2016 10:36AM

I'm religious and support the ban

Found a link to an analysis of the surveys on the Pew website.

Can you provide a link to where you got the stoning survey infographic as I can't find it so far and there's a lot to wade through.

starshine1234 · 31-08-2016 10:45AM

I have only visited the website below once, when the demand was made of me that I must prove my relatively innocuous assertion that Islam is a totalitarian type religion. I consider that claim to be no more contentious than saying that Nazism was totalitarian, for example.

I feel it was on this page. I just chose two pictures more or less at random.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

Delirium · 31-08-2016 10:55AM

I'm religious and support the ban

starshine1234 wrote: »

I have only visited the website below once, when the demand was made of me that I must prove my relatively innocuous assertion that Islam is a totalitarian type religion. I consider that claim to be no more contentious than saying that Nazism was totalitarian, for example.

I feel it was on this page. I just chose two pictures more or less at random.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

But on the page it says, next to the image:

In 10 of 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis, at least half of Muslims who favor making sharia the law of the land also favor stoning unfaithful spouses.

Which the image confirms.

So in 50% of the countries the majority don't support stoning and 50% the majority does.

How can you then say that the majority of Muslims hold to extreme views when the data is split down the middle?

starshine1234 · 31-08-2016 11:02AM

Because you have cherry picked a single piece of data.

Do you intend to be fair?

Delirium · 31-08-2016 11:05AM

I'm religious and support the ban

starshine1234 wrote: »

Because you have cherry picked a single piece of data.

Do you intend to be fair?

How am I being unfair if I'm using data you provided???

starshine1234 · 31-08-2016 11:07AM

because you are cherry picking.

Delirium · 31-08-2016 11:08AM

I'm religious and support the ban

starshine1234 wrote: »

because you are cherry picking.

how so?

starshine1234 · 31-08-2016 11:12AM

from google

Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.

Delirium · 31-08-2016 11:16AM

I'm religious and support the ban

starshine1234 wrote: »

from google

Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.

But I referred to both those pro- and anti-stoning, how am I cherry picking the survey data you posted?

starshine1234 · 31-08-2016 11:49AM

This was the claim
It's a fact, proven by surveys, that many mainstream muslims believe in things like death for apostacy, and death for many other things. Those by definition are extreme viewpoints and they are held by a majority of muslims in many countries.

I feel that point is proven by the graphs.

There are several countries, (which qualifies as 'many'), where over 50% of Muslims believe in extreme ideas. Over 50% qualifies as 'a majority'.

recedite · 31-08-2016 03:16PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

smacl wrote: »

I think though if we're talking about Islam in Europe we need to look at its behaviour in that context. So for example, also from the same Pew research we get;

in two regions, far fewer Muslims say Islamic law should be endorsed by their governments: Southern and Eastern Europe (18%) and Central Asia (12%).

That refers to a traditional form of Islam in countries such as Albania, the Caucasus and some former soviet republics, a form which is perhaps more used to co-existing with other peoples. The Islam practiced in the UK is predominantly Pakistani and Bangladeshi in origin, while in France it is of North African origin. With both heavily influenced in recent years by Saudi inspired Salafist preachers. I don't think the Pew research has anything to say on these sub-groups that exist in Western Europe, but the You Tube video I posted gives a fair idea of the mindset of one such group in the UK, which is probably fairly typical.

Burka ban

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