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Oh Yoko!

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,135 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Zxclnic wrote: »
    Jagger and Richards didn't give a fùck about writing songs, full stop. That's why Andrew Loog Oldham had to stick both of them in a room telling them not to come out until they learned how to write a song, and that's why he (Oldham) pleaded with Lennon and McCartney to write a hit for The Stones as they couldn't write one for themselves at the time....
    ......'I Wanna Be Your Man'!

    They seemed to learn pretty quick :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Zxclnic


    Discodog wrote: »
    They seemed to learn pretty quick :)

    Yes they did, I'm a big fan of The Stones, one of the best live bands ever..
    ...but not a patch on The Beatles when it came to songwriting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,135 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Wibbs wrote: »
    So what? :confused: And this gives you musical knowledge gravitas how?

    Which is what they did. Jagger and Richards would have given up major organs to get within sniffing distance off something like Eleanor Rigby, or I am the Walrus, or Strawberry Fields Forever, or any number of Beatles songs. If you think such songs are about "nothing" my original point stands; Really not much can be said to that TBH.

    Kieth was probably too sober to write that:

    Lennon told Playboy years later that "I can write that crap too,"
    "The first line was written on one acid trip one weekend. The second line was written on the next acid trip the next weekend, and it was filled in after I met Yoko.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,135 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Zxclnic wrote: »
    Yes they did, I'm a big fan of The Stones, one of the best live bands ever..
    ...but not a patch on The Beatles when it came to songwriting.

    I would agree in some respects. They are totally different. One is a pop band turned almost orchestral/musical & the other is a three chord rock band.

    I just believe that the God status of the Beatles is overkill.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,135 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Discodog wrote: »
    Kieth was probably too sober to write that:

    Lennon told Playboy years later that "I can write that crap too,"
    "The first line was written on one acid trip one weekend. The second line was written on the next acid trip the next weekend, and it was filled in after I met Yoko.

    Looks like she did contribute something :pac:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Zxclnic


    Discodog wrote: »
    Kieth was probably too sober to write that:

    Lennon told Playboy years later that "I can write that crap too,"
    "The first line was written on one acid trip one weekend. The second line was written on the next acid trip the next weekend, and it was filled in after I met Yoko.

    It's still a great 'nonsense' song with some seriously memorable imagery.....
    ....Yellow matter custard, dripping from a dead dog's eye...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Zxclnic


    Discodog wrote: »
    I would agree in some respects. They are totally different. One is a pop band turned almost orchestral/musical & the other is a three chord rock band.

    I just believe that the God status of the Beatles is overkill.

    In the end it's all about opinions, though it has to be remembered that the God-like status of The Beatles has a lot to do with their cultural impact at the time as well as their indisputable talents as songwriters and singers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Zxclnic


    Discodog wrote: »
    Looks like she did contribute something :pac:

    All great writers need 'a muse'.:)


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Discodog wrote: »
    I don't think that Jagger & Richards ever gave a ****e about writing such songs especially as the vast number of fans who bought them had no idea what they were about. The Stones are a rock & roll band.
    :D Better not mention their Satanic Majesties ill advised trip into ripping off Sgt Pepper then… The Stones themselves admit they were behind the Beatles and that they were an inspiration. Indeed it is easily argued that the Stones hit their peak after the Beatles had split up and took away the pressure(for their part the scousers didn't see the Stones as any threat, though they were mates who hung out).
    I believe that they are overrated & I always will. But I realise that it is sacrilege to dare say such things.
    Only if it's not backed up. So far your entire argument is based on "I don't like them. So there!". Hell I never personally rated Pink Floyd, but would consider myself a thundering dunce to claim that they are overrated.
    My reference to living in the UK is that people don't realise how much young people were looking for music that reflected their lives.
    Again so what? :confused: You seem to have this odd idea that a) only kids of your generation were looking for such music and b) only British kids were.
    Back on topic I do think that Yoko really damaged John's creativity in that she appeared to govern everything he did. To her credit, not only did Linda encourage Paul, but she, by becoming a member of Wings, allowed the band to tour & have such success especially in the USA.
    Lennon was a spent force by the time the band split, with very little reserve left. And he knew it too, hence was quick to poo poo his Beatles songs, knowing he couldn't get close to that level again. If anything Yoko encouraged him to think a little outside the box(Yoko was a well enough regarded visual artist of the 60's avant garde). Otherwise he'd have just produced 12 bar blues records. That's the joke for me. In many ways Jagger would have loved to have been a Beatle, Lennon would have loved to have been in the Stones. Lennon in the end was pushed by competition to burn bright and fast. Macca had more range and talent and longevity. He never quite reached the heights of his Beatle work, but got much closer. Linda had feck all to do with it, beyond moral support of course.
    Lennon told Playboy years later that "I can write that crap too,"
    Lennon was well known for being an utter shíte talker. One who changed the story depending on his mood and i was almost never accurate with the truth. He loved to promote the idea that all his stuff came "naturally" with no graft, like the proper genius he was. Nothing could be further from the truth. They grafted hard on their songs. Today when a band take a year to record an album they aren't working for a year. More like a month, maybe two if that. Sgt Pepper took six months of long days into nights, every day but Sunday, working hard polishing the material. This was at a time when many bands finished an album in a week.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    The Beatles changed at an unprecedented level, and changed the music world along with them as they changed. They had what, 10 years of being the top band in the world, and by the end of it they were utterly exhausted, and all people wanted to do was turn the handle and see more money squirt out of the grinder.

    Lennon seems to have been an unpleasant man, for all his brilliance; I remember seeing a programme about him and Cynthia and he was vicious and spiteful towards her. And he did the worst thing a man can do: he was a devoted, involved and loving father to his son, then ditched him when he ditched the mother.

    Would he have come back to songwriting? Maybe. But it's hard to have that desperate drive when you're rich, and harder still when you're living with a resident critic who is what you've always looked up to, an international intellectual and accredited member of the arty set.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,135 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Let's not forget the reaction of the Beatles when they heard Pet Sounds :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Discodog wrote: »
    I dated a girl who's dad worked for EMI. They had signed Beatles albums on the walls. He was good friends with George Martin. Any idea that he wasn't pivotal in their success is madness. Not only was he key to making their ideas into records but they were so lucky to find him. It could of been very different if they had signed to another label & got a traditional "closed mind" producer.

    Yep indeed, right place right time.

    The Beatles were incredibly lucky to fall into Martin's lap.

    The music they made will live forever!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 705 ✭✭✭Pete Moss


    Discodog wrote: »
    Let's not forget the reaction of the Beatles when they heard Pet Sounds :D

    They have a name for that reaction - It's called "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heats Club Band" ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,135 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Pete Moss wrote: »
    They have a name for that reaction - It's called "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heats Club Band" ;)

    Produced by Martin

    Pet Sounds produced, composed & arranged by Brian Wilson - now there's real talent.

    Just to fan the flames. Oasis did Beatles better than the Beatles & Coldplay are brilliant :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 705 ✭✭✭Pete Moss


    Discodog wrote: »
    I don't think that Jagger & Richards ever gave a ****e about writing such songs especially as the vast number of fans who bought them had no idea what they were about. The Stones are a rock & roll band.

    I believe that they are overrated & I always will. But I realise that it is sacrilege to dare say such things. I only ever bought one Beatles album & I don't have a single Beatles track in my collection.

    My reference to living in the UK is that people don't realise how much young people were looking for music that reflected their lives.

    Back on topic I do think that Yoko really damaged John's creativity in that she appeared to govern everything he did. To her credit, not only did Linda encourage Paul, but she, by becoming a member of Wings, allowed the band to tour & have such success especially in the USA.

    I've said this before, "overrated" has become a quick and easy way to completely discredit something a person dislikes, be it a film, song, sportsperson, etc., without actually giving a proper justification as to why the person, place or thing, in question is actually "overrated." Once the subject has been classified as "overrated" by its accuser, the accuser then tends to hide behind the classic defence "well, you know, that's just my opinion and I'm entitled to it."

    You're talking about The Beatles being overrated and in the same sentence you admit that you have only one of their albums in your music collection. How do you expect your argument to be taken seriously?

    It reminds me of when Alan Partridge brings up The Beatles in conversation and talks as though he listens to them and has some form of educated opinion on them, then when asked what his favourite Beatles album is and he says "Probably, The Best of The Beatles."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Zxclnic


    Discodog wrote: »
    Produced by Martin

    Pet Sounds produced, composed & arranged by Brian Wilson - now there's real talent.

    Just to fan the flames. Oasis did Beatles better than the Beatles & Coldplay are brilliant :pac:

    No doubting Brian Wilson's genius.
    Paul McCartney's favourite song of all time is 'God Only Knows'.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    It's very hard for anyone today to hear the Beatles, because they've been such a spinal part of the music of growing up. If you could go back and hear what their records sounded like when they first came out, one after another - it was extraordinary, each one was new - first a remaking of the American rock 'n' roll sound with a European hardness to it when they came back from Hamburg, then the mushy teen love songs, so melodic and simple yet deep, and then as the band changed, the increasingly complex, orchestral, widely-influenced and strange songs.
    And their music was transgressive - even Back in the USSR, which sounds so tame now, was daring then, when any hint of communism was enough to get you barred from jobs. (The version below is by Paul McCartney, whose sweet voice doesn't have the edge of Lennon's.)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,489 ✭✭✭Yamanoto


    Discodog wrote: »
    Let's not forget the reaction of the Beatles when they heard Pet Sounds :D

    ...or that of Brian Wilson when he first heard Rubber Soul.

    For guys who were primarily self taught, both he & the Beatles were blessed with a musical literacy & sensibility that was light years ahead of most all their contemporaries, in terms of compositional structure, chord progression and the use rhythm & harmony. You don't have to actually like the Beatles in the least to recognise that, it's plainly apparent just how far out in front they were for just a few short years in the mid to late 60's.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Zxclnic


    Back in the USSR is a great song, with more than a nod to the Beach Boys 'California Girls' though with really smart, 'punny' lyrics, a great driving rhythm, and a fantastic gritty vocal by McCartney - using his 'Elvis voice'.
    Again it's him saying to BW, anything you can do...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭ziggyman17


    Never mind breaking up The Beatles, but if Lennon had never met Yoko Ono then he probably have never moved to New York and being shot dead years later...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,403 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    Have to shake my head at some of the comments on here.

    1.It was all down to George Martin - Ah no, not really. Obviously without him things wouldn't have been the same and he could justifiably be called the "fifth" Beatle, but George went on to produce a lot of people after the Beatles but no-one matched them in terms of critical and commercial success or cultural impact. So I think The Beatles had a lot to do with the success of The Beatles, really.

    2.They are overrated(even if I haven't listened to them that much) - Now if something like hardcore techno or Norwegian Black Metal is your thing and you disagree with the merits of The Beatles on the grounds of musical taste, then I can somewhat understand you.

    Which is to say: I can understand why you are mistaken

    And, also, yes I can partly, just partly, understand why some could find their unassailable position upon the top of the musical pantheon to be a bit predictable and boring. But that doesn't make their music predictable and boring. There is no getting away from it: They were the greatest band of all time. I've listened to lots of bands from the fifties upwards to the present day and they are for me, by far, by a huge distance, the absolute best. Now, I'm not saying that because that's what I've been conditioned to say and, being honest, they are a slightly predictable answer for "best band" of all time. I'm saying that because that's what my head, heart and, most importantly, ears have led me to believe. To say otherwise would be a lie. After all these years; it's still The Beatles.

    The Beatles were so good it's frankly a joke. During the sixties - a time of unparalleled inventiveness and musical high standards in popular music - the amount of absolutely timeless genius songs that they pumped out at an alarming rate, was staggering and continues to blow my mind. If you are a person who can appreciate melody, vocal harmonies, diversity, inventiveness or musicianship in a band, and you've yet to really listen to them - Wow. You are in for a treat. Their music is life enriching and will stay with you forever. And that point about "really listening" to them is important. They are, of course, the complete opposite of an obscure band but their catalouge is pretty huge and the stuff you tend to hear on the radio - utterly brilliant as it might be - only scratches the surface of what they've got to offer. Most people I know have never even heard I am The Walrus for god's sake! And yet they think they know The Beatles...Pfft!...

    Now if you have, extensively, listened to them and they still do nothing for you? I dunno? I suspect you could be some sort of android? Does your soul have working parts? Only joking of course! But, still, at the very least, I wouldn't want to be trapped in a lift with you for an extended time because I'd suspect that after a while you'd try to eat me and wear my head as a hat.

    And as for the people who refuse to give them a fair chance. Those that listen to one tune and then bring their judgement down like a gavel and pronounce them OVERRATED! You guys are the absolute worst. Not just in this. In everything. I'm prepared to give any music a fair shot before I rush to judgement about it. For instance, I'm not a massive Pink Floyd fan, even if I own half a dozen albums by them, I can't totally say what my final opinion on them would be - because there's a lot of other Floyd out there. I must own over twenty albums by Bob Dylan and even to this day I can't say for absolutely sure whether I truly consider myself a fan or not.

    Going off topic a bit here, but I absolutely despise people who tend to harshly dismiss things- cultural things usually - as "crap" instead of having the courage to at least try to understand. The worst. Your opinions are worthless.

    3.The Beatles aren't truly important because their music doesn't reflect the time in which it was made - The Sixties was a tumultuous decade, to say the least. And I'd wager that the The Beatles and their music reflected the maelstrom of it all in a musical microcosm better than anyone else of the era. Maybe, possibly, nothing else captured the zeitgeist of those days better than their music did. They started off lovable and energetic, in the newly prosperous and teenage filled 1960s. Then their music matured and as the cultural wars, as such, became a more prominent feature of life they moved along with them - becoming emblematic of newfound youthful exuberance, then drugged out Utopian dreams of happiness, followed by darkening gloom and increasingly embittered bitterness as the dreams died and the decade waned. Their music was rarely as explicit as many of their contemporaries, but their time is definitely in the music - in it's subtext or just even the tone or feel or individual albums. St. Pepper's tells me something of the hopeful spirit of the summer of 1967, while The White Album speaks to me from the jaded perspective of '68, with the hippie dream dead and everything that once had seemed so simple and universal now confused and disjointed. Popular Culture and Music moved along at a fair lick during the sixties and yet The Beatles always remained popular and moved ahead with the times. They were some bunch of lads.

    Oh yeah: Yoko Ono. She gets a fair bit of flack for supposedly being the root cause of their break up but I don't know if it's a fair charge. I'd say the break up was inevitable. They'd been together as a band for so long by the time it all fell apart. After all the life changing success and fame - not to mention the drugs, drink, money, women, egos - they'd all been through it was inevitable that eventually something had to give. They were teenagers when they started out and were men who had seen and done it all by the time it was done. Men with vastly different expectations of themselves and each other. Something would have given eventually. I can't envision an alternate history where Lennon and McCartney kept working together past 1970 and part of me is half glad that it didn't happen. They hadn't a chance to start to properly stagnate like their peers. Their catalouge is peerless. Whatever about the solo albums... Plus John wrote some really great deeply felt emotional tunes inspired by Yoko, so I'll thank her for that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,135 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Pete Moss wrote: »
    I've said this before, "overrated" has become a quick and easy way to completely discredit something a person dislikes, be it a film, song, sportsperson, etc., without actually giving a proper justification as to why the person, place or thing, in question is actually "overrated." Once the subject has been classified as "overrated" by its accuser, the accuser then tends to hide behind the classic defence "well, you know, that's just my opinion and I'm entitled to it."

    You're talking about The Beatles being overrated and in the same sentence you admit that you have only one of their albums in your music collection. How do you expect your argument to be taken seriously?

    It reminds me of when Alan Partridge brings up The Beatles in conversation and talks as though he listens to them and has some form of educated opinion on them, then when asked what his favourite Beatles album is and he says "Probably, The Best of The Beatles."

    You couldn't live through those times without hearing Beatles tracks. I doubt if there is a released track that I haven't heard many times.

    Yes the word "overrated" is over used & mine is a personal opinion - I thought that's what Boards is about. At the time not everyone revered the Beatles. There is also a snobbery where music is only good if you use complexity & innovation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    Complexity and innovation? I'm not a Beatles fan, but…





  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Zxclnic


    Discodog wrote: »
    You couldn't live through those times without hearing Beatles tracks. I doubt if there is a released track that I haven't heard many times.

    Yes the word "overrated" is over used & mine is a personal opinion - I thought that's what Boards is about. At the time not everyone revered the Beatles. There is also a snobbery where music is only good if you use complexity & innovation.

    Sometimes there is snobbery when it comes to music, or indeed any art form where 'taste' (Hello Rory) is involved, though to be honest with The Beatles it's usually the other way round with people who fancy themselves as musical sophisticates decrying the fab four for their simple songs about such unimportant issues as love, life, death and most things in between.
    The real musical snobs tended to go for the bombastic and pretentious prog rock bands of the 70's with their sword & sorcery lyrics and ludicrous time changes and signatures. The Beatles certainly were complex and innovative songwriters and recording artists because they wanted to explore the limits, and push beyond boundaries, of what could be done in a - by modern standards - primitive 4-track studio setting. Plus as songwriters they were confident and talented enough to suggest, and use, unusual instrumentation and unorthodox (for the time) chord changes in their compositions, as a tunesmith McCartney was recognised as being as good or better then most of the greats who came before him, add to that the fact that both John Lennon and Paul McCartney were really great singers.
    Listen to Lennon's vocal on 'Happiness Is a Warm Gun' from the White Album and from the same album compare 'Helter Skelter' and 'I Will' to appreciate the range and versatility in McCartney's singing.
    Imho, they were streets ahead of their rivals...and believe me I'm no musical snob.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Moo Moo Land


    Chuchote wrote: »
    It's very hard for anyone today to hear the Beatles, because they've been such a spinal part of the music of growing up. If you could go back and hear what their records sounded like when they first came out, one after another - it was extraordinary, each one was new - first a remaking of the American rock 'n' roll sound with a European hardness to it when they came back from Hamburg, then the mushy teen love songs, so melodic and simple yet deep, and then as the band changed, the increasingly complex, orchestral, widely-influenced and strange songs.
    And their music was transgressive - even Back in the USSR, which sounds so tame now, was daring then, when any hint of communism was enough to get you barred from jobs. (The version below is by Paul McCartney, whose sweet voice doesn't have the edge of Lennon's.)


    I love that song.

    The Beatles were class.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 705 ✭✭✭Pete Moss


    Discodog wrote: »
    You couldn't live through those times without hearing Beatles tracks. I doubt if there is a released track that I haven't heard many times.

    Yes the word "overrated" is over used & mine is a personal opinion - I thought that's what Boards is about. At the time not everyone revered the Beatles. There is also a snobbery where music is only good if you use complexity & innovation.


    Unfortunately, I'm living through the times of Kanye West. I hear a Kanye song on the radio in work, hear another of his at a house party and hear another one from Yeezus while I'm driving, this doesn't mean I listen to him. It doesn't mean I've monitored his progression as a songwriter or artist, no more than when you heard some Beatles' songs during "those times."

    My point isn't that the word "overrated" is overused - my point is that it's misused. Simply saying X is overrated when compared to Z holds no water and just because it's a personal opinion - doesn't mean its right.

    In terms of innovation, did The Beatles start anything new? Not in the beginning, they really just rebranded rhythm and blues music for white people (much like which was done previously via Elvis) as rock n' roll. However, in a very short space of time The Beatles (George Martin included) became far more innovative and shaped the musical landscape. Their back catalogue is both incredibly simple e.g. "She Loves You", "I'm Only Sleeping" to incredibly complex "A Day In The Life", "Tomorrow Never Knows". Their songs range from one man and a guitar "Blackbird", "Yesterday" to one man and an orchestra "Eleanor Rigby".


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Pete Moss wrote: »
    In terms of innovation, did The Beatles start anything new? Not in the beginning, they really just rebranded rhythm and blues music for white people (much like which was done previously via Elvis) as rock n' roll.
    Oddly enough and especially for the time they only ever wrote and recorded one blues track. Really odd compared to contemporaries. They brought in weird musical influences. The Indian and other "world music" OK, but medieval church musical progressions were very common in their stuff and god knows where they pulled that from.
    one man and an orchestra "Eleanor Rigby".
    String quartet. :D IIRC I think they only ever used a full orchestra for a Day in the Life. At least partially because it was expensive and EMI might have complained.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 705 ✭✭✭Pete Moss


    Wibbs wrote: »
    String quartet. :D IIRC I think they only ever used a full orchestra for a Day in the Life. At least partially because it was expensive and EMI might have complained.

    You're right on both counts :D I thought they may have used an orchestra on "She's Leaving Home", however it was again only a string section.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    Pete Moss wrote: »
    Unfortunately, I'm living through the times of Kanye West.

    I hear ya.

    But I hear ya from the perspective of having truly hated a song called The Loco Motion for about a year as a kid in Ireland, then moving to America where it was a hit for about another year (or perhaps the other way around). I hated that song with a passion.

    Now when I hear it I start grooving along, man (clicks fingers, puts on shades).



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  • Posts: 1,766 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Winterlong wrote: »
    The Beatles had been a clean cut band. Then the summer of love came along.

    Not sure how clean cut anyone is after an apprenticeship playing strip clubs in early 60s Hamburg (on amphetamines).

    They might look like a boy band in hindsight but when they emerged in the UK they were considered anything but clean cut.


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