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Burka ban

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Comments

  • #3542
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,815 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    starshine1234 wrote: »
    The questions you asked were rhetorical questions.

    They actually weren't. I am genuinely at a loss as to how you could possibly implement the policies you're calling for short of such measures. You are avoiding engaging with the implications and consequences of these ridiculous policies.

    On reflection I should've worded it differently, just to avoid the actual issue of what you're saying from being sidetracked.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • #3543
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Mod:
    starshine1234 wrote: »
    You are a hate filled person and your post is full of abuse and hate. Can you not try to argue your points without all the hate?
    Pff - take a look at the beam in your eye before whinging about the speck in your brothers.

    Please upgrade my warning above - if you choose to deliver any more contra-charter rants and/or personal comments, you will be banned from the forum.


  • #3544
    starshine1234
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 305 ✭✭starshine1234


    I won't bother making further posts.

    We are in an existential war for our survival against militant Islam.

    The lunatics have taken over the asylum.

    Good luck. You'll need it.


    edited to add:
    I may actually provide some further posts on this thread, but I'm not likely to post on the issue of the burka. I may comment if people act in a triumphant way to the fact that I've been forced off the thread.


  • #3545
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    starshine1234 wrote: »
    We in the west are weak and are ripe to be destroyed. That is the intention of Islam. To convert people or to kill them.
    .

    Have you ever spent any time with any muslim people?


  • #3546
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,112 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    starshine1234 wrote: »
    We in the west are weak and are ripe to be destroyed.
    you should move to dublin so, we're made of harder stuff than galway people.


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  • #3547
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    starshine1234 wrote: »
    I may comment if people act in a triumphant way to the fact that I've been forced off the thread.
    That's not the way A+A works, as you may not yet have had time to find out. Anybody who's uncouth enough to do that is likely to find themselves carded or worse.

    But, by all means, continue to contribute in a sociable but firm way as seems to befit your opinions. However, drop the fist-waving and your apparent expectation that everybody else fist-waves too.


  • #3548
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,815 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    starshine1234 wrote: »
    I won't bother making further posts.

    We are in an existential war for our survival against militant Islam.

    The lunatics have taken over the asylum.

    Good luck. You'll need it.


    edited to add:
    I may actually provide some further posts on this thread, but I'm not likely to post on the issue of the burka. I may comment if people act in a triumphant way to the fact that I've been forced off the thread.

    Cop out.

    So are you going to explain how you will "ban islam from Europe" or is that to remain an enigma like Donald's magical Mexican wall?

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • #3549
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    looksee wrote: »
    What is there to doubt about its authenticity? Two people, dressed in motorbike leathers lying on a beach. Are they not lying on a beach? Is it photoshopped? Does it matter? Did they not stay there long enough to be 'authentic'? How long was needed? Was it just a photo-op? Why does it matter? The point is well made.
    Well, mostly that there's no reason to think they're protesting about anything, and that the image has been reproduced on the net in a number of contexts before the burkini ban became an issue. That it's funny, apt, and suits our point of view doesn't mean we should blindly accept that it is what it says it is :)


  • #3550
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,906 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Absolam wrote: »
    Well, mostly that there's no reason to think they're protesting about anything, and that the image has been reproduced on the net in a number of contexts before the burkini ban became an issue. That it's funny, apt, and suits our point of view doesn't mean we should blindly accept that it is what it says it is :)

    Where did I say they were protesting about anything. They, or someone else who saw the photo and grasped the implications, are making a point, and the point is well made.


  • #3551
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    To noodle around a bit…

    I was dismayed - horrified - by the photo of the French police making a woman take off the burkini. For a start, this was a middle-aged woman, who had her fat old arms covered. If it was a young girl and she was clearly showing off… well… actually, then, even then, it doesn't need the cops to be called. Frenchwomen (including those who've migrated to France) have such an innate sense of style that this horrid swimsuit will only have a short life fuelled by sensation before being consigned to history and eccentrics.

    I often dress not unlike that on the beach, if I'm not going into the water - leggings and a long-sleeved top, and if it's windy, a scarf. I'm the whitest person in Europe and the doctor's forever burning nasty little growths off me, caused, he says, by unwary sunbathing in my youth when it was considered good for you. Are the cops going to come and make me strip off?

    Covering the face is an interesting one. Of course, there are places where showing your face has to be mandatory - in school, so the teachers know that you understand the lesson, in court so your witness can be seen and understood and trusted, for instance.

    My own small experience with this: I was waiting in A&E for some reason some years ago, and there was a large Muslim family. The younger women were, at that stage, dressed in a rather modest version of Irish dress. The older ones were, as normal for their culture and stage in life, dressed in tents. The grandma was in one of those shortie robes that show your bottom at the back. She was clearly morto.

    After waiting a while - quite a while - I went up to the nurse dealing with patients and muttered to her that this lady was really embarrassed, and had probably never shown her legs to anyone in her life, and it risked adding extra stress to a very ill patient and her family. The nurse was a bit dismissive, so I said "Look, I'll leave it with you; I just thought I ought to tell you. Poor woman's dying of embarrassment."

    A few minutes later, a couple of nurses came up to the family and discreetly moved their grandma and a couple of them into a cubicle for privacy, with the rest nearby. She looked so relieved.

    We're all living in each other's shadows. it takes a while for cultures to settle in together and mix and meld and mingle; I wouldn't mind one of those lovely scarves the Muslim ladies wear, and notice some young Irish radical fashionistas wearing beautifully wound-around headcloths lately. Wouldn't want it to be compulsory, but I wouldn't want it to be compulsory not to wear, either.


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  • #3552
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    looksee wrote: »
    Where did I say they were protesting about anything. They, or someone else who saw the photo and grasped the implications, are making a point, and the point is well made.
    Hmm. I said it, if you recall? I posted a picture called "French bikers protest burkini ban" and said I'd take it's authenticity with more than a soupçon of salt. You asked what there was to doubt about it's authenticity; I would suggest that, despite the title, it is not, in fact, an authentic picture of French bikers protesting the burkini ban.


  • #3553
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,906 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Absolam wrote: »
    Hmm. I said it, if you recall? I posted a picture called "French bikers protest burkini ban" and said I'd take it's authenticity with more than a soupçon of salt. You asked what there was to doubt about it's authenticity; I would suggest that, despite the title, it is not, in fact, an authentic picture of French bikers protesting the burkini ban.

    And I was saying that it did not matter whether it was 'authentic' (whatever that means); the person who reproduced the image was making a point and the point was well made, regardless of why the the bikers were doing what they were doing.

    Now I am not going any further down this rabbit hole of irrelevance.


  • #3554
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    I saw a comment that the photo was from 2012, so the only point is that the people in the photo werent protesting the new rules

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #3555
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Chuchote wrote: »
    We're all living in each other's shadows. it takes a while for cultures to settle in together and mix and meld and mingle; I wouldn't mind one of those lovely scarves the Muslim ladies wear, and notice some young Irish radical fashionistas wearing beautifully wound-around headcloths lately. Wouldn't want it to be compulsory, but I wouldn't want it to be compulsory not to wear, either.

    To be fair, I don't think anyone has an issue with head scarves, it is still a common enough garment of choice by many women. What is apparent with younger women and older girls is that in a more integrated multicultural society Muslim girls often have clothing restrictions imposed on them by their families that their peers (and brothers) are not subject to, which can be a source of anguish. One of my younger daughters friends is going through this at the moment, where her relatively relaxed choice of clothes at primary level will become more curtailed at secondary level. While the hajib is one thing, wearing a burqa or naqib in a western community where you stand out like a sore thumb and will be the object of derision, scorn, or worse is questionable as a free choice but pretty deplorable if mandated by family.

    As per my previous posts, a little pragmatism and compassion on behalf of the imams could go a long way. Rather than leave these women as the battle ground for an argument that is certainly not all theirs, the Muslim clergy should simply advocate against the burqa as a garment for everyday wear. Easy to argue they shouldn't have to, but by not making any efforts to compromise, they're clearly fighting their battle from a long way behind the front line.


  • #3556
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,906 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    I had an interesting experience a few days ago. I was dressed in approximately 1850s poorer people's costume, along with another woman and two children. We were going to meet up with another group, some of whom would be dressed similarly. I am well used to dressing in historical costume and wandering round in public, so it was not at all an unusual experience for me.

    What was unusual was the reaction of other people. No one was in any way impolite, but you could see the wariness and confusion as they met us on a random bit of country road. Nothing we were wearing looked remotely like any other ethnic dress, but the overall impression was of long skirts and large shawls. Normally we get an open and friendly reaction to whatever we are wearing and members of the public will stop and ask what we are at and about the costumes, the response this time was a little disconcerting.

    Dealing with suspicion or direct hostility for doing what seems right and natural - wearing the clothes you have always worn (leaving the burqa out of the equation for the moment) must be very difficult on a daily basis.

    I could also point out that in most cases most men do not inflict this on themselves, they wear western clothing so have much less idea what it is like to always be 'different'.


  • #3557
    starshine1234
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 305 ✭✭starshine1234


    I had said.
    The West is in an existential fight for its survival against militant Islam.

    magicbastarder wrote: »
    you should move to dublin so, we're made of harder stuff than galway people.

    Thanks for mocking me.

    You're an obnoxious bully.

    You may have forced me off the thread but you haven't killed my ideas. Forcing people into silence is childish and ultimately futile. I've presented good arguments on this thread which have been ignored and instead I've been bullied and mocked.


    If you think you're not a bully please explain why mocking people and belittling people is acceptable.


  • #3558
    starshine1234
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 305 ✭✭starshine1234


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Cop out.

    So are you going to explain how you will "ban islam from Europe" or is that to remain an enigma like Donald's magical Mexican wall?


    What do you mean, cop out?

    I've been forced from the thread.

    My opinions are not welcome.

    You weren't interested in what I had to say until now, and you're only interested now because you're aware I'm not willing to respond.


  • #3559
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,906 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    starshine1234 wrote: »
    I had said.
    The West is in an existential fight for its survival against militant Islam.




    Thanks for mocking me.

    You're an obnoxious bully.

    You may have forced me off the thread but you haven't killed my ideas. Forcing people into silence is childish and ultimately futile. I've presented good arguments on this thread which have been ignored and instead I've been bullied and mocked.


    If you think you're not a bully please explain why mocking people and belittling people is acceptable.

    Oh, for heaven's sake. You were not being mocked, it was a humourous comment.

    You have not been forced off the thread, in fact you are still very much here.

    No-one has silenced you, you are still making the same arguments. It is true that no one agrees with you - even people who have doubts about immigration and Islam can see how hysterical your arguments are. This is a discussion board, people are entitled to disagree with you.

    If you calmed down a bit and made some rational and thought out points, other people might be able to have a discussion with you. As it is there is really very little point.


  • #3560
    starshine1234
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 305 ✭✭starshine1234


    I'd suggest that this thread isn't about discussion. Has any progress been made?, and if not, is it possible to make any progress on an issue like this when discussed on a internet forum?

    The thread seems to be about preaching to the choir. Boards is like a mutual admiration society.

    Dissenting opinions are not welcome. It seems people would prefer not to know about other opinions.

    Of course, you will say it's about how the opinions are presented. I disagree. People with dissenting opinions have their posts crawled through and people complain about every little thing.

    The standard of argument is often very poor. People raise silly objections to points which aren't relevant. They then expect a response. People deliberately raise straw men and use silly constructions like 'so you think..' and then they put in something outrageous.

    People ask 'what does banning mean?'.
    How can that be a genuine question? It's also not possible to answer a question like that if people don't accept that Islam is a totalitarian type policitial system. People on this thread refuse to accept that Islam is a totalitarian, authoritarian, political ideologoy. People insist that Islam is a religion of peace despite all evidence to the contrary, and despite a complete absence of support for that idea among Muslims.

    In other words, non-Muslims continually speak for Islam and make false claims about Islam. No-one makes excuses for the Catholic Church but for Islam they bend over backwards to make excuses.

    Europe is at serious risk of major social strife and ignoring that possibility is reckless in the extreme.


  • #3561
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    looksee wrote: »
    And I was saying that it did not matter whether it was 'authentic' (whatever that means); the person who reproduced the image was making a point and the point was well made, regardless of why the the bikers were doing what they were doing. Now I am not going any further down this rabbit hole of irrelevance.
    Actually, you asked what there was to doubt about it's authenticity. You are right; it was pretty irrelevant, but I thought it would be courteous to answer.


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  • #3562
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Qs wrote: »
    There are neo-nazis throughout Europe, sometimes they go by different names now and sometimes they do not. The extreme fascistic right wing ideology is present though and it has representation. We don't ban people having distasteful opinions, or at least we shouldn't.
    It might be interesting to take this analogy further.
    What if a group of people were regularly congregating on a Mediterranean beach in full Nazi regalia; swimming barbequing etc..
    After some complaints from the public, the local mayor asks them to remove the particular clothing or else stop using the beach.

    The correlation here is that both Nazis and Islamists were representative of an intolerant, aggressively invasive ideology whose ultimate aim was to either subsume or destroy other societies.

    Both Nazis and Islamists would be free to bathe on the beach wearing beachwear which was less overtly an advertisement for their ideology.


  • #3563
    starshine1234
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 305 ✭✭starshine1234


    I've already made the comparision between Nazism and Islam.

    The people here refuse to address the point. They ignore the similarities. Head in the sand type stuff.

    Certainly not an open discussion when important salient points are ignored and dismissed.


  • #3564
    A_Sober_Paddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,221 ✭✭✭A_Sober_Paddy


    I think the situation in France is purely driven by fear...

    Their country has been raped by terrorists, locals in fear, scared and feel like it's not getting any better...

    French government have a job to ensure their safety, and make their citizens feel secure...


  • #3565
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,112 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    starshine1234 wrote: »
    Thanks for mocking me.

    You're an obnoxious bully.

    You may have forced me off the thread
    uh...


  • #3566
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Mod:
    starshine1234 wrote: »
    I've been forced from the thread. My opinions are not welcome.
    I've already explained that your opinions are welcome here in A+A, so long as you can deliver them without fist-waving at everybody. Also, given that you are still posting in this thread, I'm a little confused about exactly how you can reasonably believe that you've "been forced from the thread".
    starshine1234 wrote: »
    You're an obnoxious bully. [...] If you think you're not a bully please explain why mocking people and belittling people is acceptable.
    However, it seems that you can't - and I would politely suggest that your trenchant belief that people are out to get you might be informing some of your opinions beyond A+A as well. FWIW, here in A+A, posters are free to comments on ideas howsoever they wish; posters are not allowed to comment as they wish upon other posters.

    For your own good, you're now on a 24 hour break from the forum. But please return again after tomorrow if you can do so with some sense of decorum. Please read the forum charter before posting again - thanks.


  • #3567
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    recedite wrote: »
    It might be interesting to take this analogy further.
    What if a group of people were regularly congregating on a Mediterranean beach in full Nazi regalia; swimming barbequing etc..
    After some complaints from the public, the local mayor asks them to remove the particular clothing or else stop using the beach.

    The correlation here is that both Nazis and Islamists were representative of an intolerant, aggressively invasive ideology whose ultimate aim was to either subsume or destroy other societies.

    Both Nazis and Islamists would be free to bathe on the beach wearing beachwear which was less overtly an advertisement for their ideology.

    You are making a fairly basic error by confusing Islamists with Muslims in general. You might have a point if people in black balaclavas were gathering on French beaches under Islamic State flags.


  • #3568
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Nick Park wrote: »
    You are making a fairly basic error by confusing Islamists with Muslims in general.
    I don't think so; look at film footage from Iran or Pakistan in the 1960's and 70's; its all fairly standard western or indigenous styles of clothing on display. The more restrictive Islamic dress codes have only spread into most Muslim countries in the last few decades, with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. Muslims who follow fundamentalist teachings in Europe and then choose to nail their colours to the mast are inviting conflict, given the number of terrorist attacks perpetrated by fundamentalist jihadis.


  • #3569
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm religious and support the ban
    recedite wrote: »
    Muslims who follow fundamentalist teachings in Europe and then choose to nail their colours to the mast are inviting conflict, given the number of terrorist attacks perpetrated by fundamentalist jihadis.

    But what proportion of the total population in Muslims in Europe are we talking about here, I don't know but I'd guess it is small. As such it is no more reasonable to paint all Muslims as fundamentalists than to paint all Irish people as IRA sympathisers. While it might suit a certain hard right wing agenda to do so, it is patently untrue.


  • #3570
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    I'm not painting all Muslims as fundamentalists. I'm suggesting that Burka wearing Muslims probably are, just as Irishmen who insist on wearing a tricolour draped around themselves in their daily life are are probably somewhere on the IRA supporting spectrum.

    Kurdish women are typically Muslim, but they don't worry too much about burqas/burkinis. They're too busy fighting real battles against Islamic State.


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  • #3571
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm religious and support the ban
    recedite wrote: »
    I'm not painting all Muslims as fundamentalists. I'm suggesting that Burka wearing Muslims probably are, just as Irishmen who insist on wearing a tricolour draped around themselves in their daily life are are probably somewhere on the IRA supporting spectrum.

    Kurdish women are typically Muslim, but they don't worry too much about burqas/burkinis. They're too busy fighting real battles against Islamic State.

    Could well be the case, though if you buy the argument that there is a large element of coercion involved in the women wearing the burqa in many cases, then it is equally possible that they're not the extremists. I'm for the ban, for reasons I've already outlined, and am surprised that the majority of more moderate Muslims aren't doing more to distance themselves from the extremists and hence isolate them. The intransigence on all sides is worrying.


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