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Burka ban

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Comments

  • #3482
    mrkiscool2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭mrkiscool2


    I'm religious and support the ban
    starshine1234 wrote: »
    No, it's not. My suggestion is not totalitarian.

    The Ulster Pride march was banned in Dublin.

    The reason?

    The Irish State couldn't guarantee the safety of the participants.

    Like I said, public safety trumps everything, and public safety can be used as an excuse to ban anything.


    Was the Irish State totalitarian to ban the Ulster Pride march?

    Should the state allow events to go ahead even if violence is certain to occur?
    They banned it because violence HAD HAPPENED! You are just selecting the facts that fit you. Both sides were at fault so the Orange Order had to be punished as they shouldn't have risen to the violence.


  • #3483
    mrkiscool2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭mrkiscool2


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    Just a note. Swimming in non swimwear (not designed for that purpose) that includes heavy fabric, especially loose clothes can be dangerous. It can increase the risk of drowning. This is one reason why people don't wear lots of loose clothes when swimming.
    Leaving aside religion entirely if I saw anyone going above ankle depth in the sea I would consider it irresponsible and alert a lifeguard or garda as they are endangering themselves and potentially others as rescue can be hampered by such clothes too, endangering the rescuer.
    Then just tell them not to swim? How are they supposed to enjoy the beach? And, by your earlier comments, these women aren't covering their face so should be fine. Or are you really just that anti-Islam they can't wear anything but what other people wear?


  • #3484
    starshine1234
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 305 ✭✭starshine1234


    The problem is the forced mixing of incompatable cultures.

    Like the Dalai Lama said, Germany should be for the Germans, not for all of Africa.

    The Dalai Lama was laughing as he said that. The reason for his laughter is that he felt like he was explaining basic facts to schoolchildren. Countries have borders, and those borders should be protected.

    The modern leftist liberal retard nonsense that we should all get along is just that; liberal retard nonsense.


    I would prefer if Islam was banned. In the name of public safety of course.

    Failing that, then all public expression of culture and of religion should be banned. In the name of public safety of course.

    Failing that, we should all live in a militarised hell hole, where we have masked, armed soldiers on our streets. That is where leftist liberal retardness leads us.

    I reject liberal retardness and I want my country back. I don't want Ireland to be like Sweden which is a hell hole, and a rape capital.


  • #3485
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,112 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    Leaving aside religion entirely if I saw anyone going above ankle depth in the sea I would consider it irresponsible and alert a lifeguard or garda as they are endangering themselves and potentially others as rescue can be hampered by such clothes too, endangering the rescuer.
    Why has no state - that I know of - tried to ban swimming in heavy clothes so? This argument really comes across as spurious.


  • #3486
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    mrkiscool2 wrote: »
    They banned it because violence HAD HAPPENED! You are just selecting the facts that fit you. Both sides were at fault so the Orange Order had to be punished as they shouldn't have risen to the violence.
    They didn't "rise to it"; they got back on their buses and they got out of Dodge city as fast as they could. The Gardai were left fighting the protesters.


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  • #3487
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    Why has no state - that I know of - tried to ban swimming in heavy clothes so? This argument really comes across as spurious.

    That's because it is really spurious. Intolerance and bigotry pretending to be something else.

    If people don't like burkas then they shouldn't wear one - then they should get on with living their lives and let others do the same.


  • #3488
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,578 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Nick Park wrote: »
    If people don't like burkas then they shouldn't wear one - then they should get on with living their lives and let others do the same.

    Isn't this often the argument used for why abortions should be allowed? , if you don't like them don't have one. Funny thing is, not everyone accepts it.

    The same applies here I guess, people can claim they are a tool of oppression against women.

    It's hard to claim women wear them by choice when their outlook on them is warped from a very young age in most cases.

    There's also differences and issues with the different types and really these need to be separated, coving hair is not the same as covering entire head/face. I think we can all agree on that atleast?


  • #3489
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,112 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Cabaal wrote: »
    It's hard to claim women wear them by choice when their outlook on them is warped from a very young age in most cases.
    unless you can prove mental illness perhaps, even if you do accept that someone has been 'conditioned' to do something, legally banning them from doing it is an absurd solution; wearing a burka in and of itself is not harmful.


  • #3490
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,578 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    unless you can prove mental illness perhaps, even if you do accept that someone has been 'conditioned' to do something, legally banning them from doing it is an absurd solution; wearing a burka in and of itself is not harmful.

    Not physically but I suppose many see it as mentally harmful as its been inflicted on them likely from a young age,

    Sort of like a more extreme version of the catholic church teaching kids that sex is dirty, it is harm, but simply a different level.


  • #3491
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Isn't this often the argument used for why abortions should be allowed?
    It might be by people who think aborting a child is on a par with choosing what clothes you wear. I'll refrain from following you down that rabbit trail.
    It's hard to claim women wear them by choice when their outlook on them is warped from a very young age in most cases.

    You can make that kind of argument against almost any practice (and somehow it always seems to apply to the viewpoints and practices that differ from your own, doesn't it?). I think the burka is a horrible garment, and I disagree profoundly with the religion views it represents, but the fact remains that large numbers of women freely choose to wear such things - and they should be allowed to do so if they wish.

    People should be free to wear what they want (with the possible exception of slogans or symbols that deliberately seek to stir hatred). If we only apply this principle to stuff we agree with, then we aren't really much different from the Taliban. If you want to wear a God Delusion t-shirt then you should be allowed to do so. If nuns want to wear habits to the beach they should be allowed to do so. The same goes for burkinis or deeply-offensive garments such as a Man Utd shirt.

    A truly secular society (which I believe is where we should be heading) gives no special privileges to religion and subjects it to no special restrictions. Banning the burkini is an assault on the principles of true secularism.


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  • #3492
    Qs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Qs


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    Leaving aside religion entirely if I saw anyone going above ankle depth in the sea I would consider it irresponsible and alert a lifeguard or garda as they are endangering themselves and potentially others as rescue can be hampered by such clothes too, endangering the rescuer.

    I was in the sea up to me knees today with my shorts and t-shirt on while paddling with my kid. Should I have been arrested? Do you thing I was endangering myself and others?


  • #3493
    Qs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Qs


    I'm religious and support the ban
    silverharp wrote: »
    it depends I guess. you wouldn't ban or close down a group of people because they were for example communists because in the normal course of things ideas come and go and the children of communists are more likely to have a different set of opinions by the time they grow up plus in the meantime they get on with being normal citizens. However if a society thought it was seriously at risk of being overthrown ie to change the nature of the state for the worse, the "free society" should not just tie its hands behind its back and go "well that's democracy for you!"
    A free society ought to fight to stay free.

    Indeed. And that is why we should oppose fascism in all its forms. Be it Islamofascism or the fascism of the French banning clothing like the Burkini.


  • #3494
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,389 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Qs wrote: »
    In a free society you should be perfectly entitled to hold extreme opinions and beliefs.

    Of course, beliefs are entirely the property of their owners. But public actions are social, in that they have social consequences. Covering up your entire body including your face has social consequences and inciting fear and distrust are perfectly reasonable reactions to their 'choice'.

    But in reality, the actual freedom of choice of anyone who wears a burka is questionable given the implied consequences for women in this culture who defy the will of their fathers or husbands.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #3495
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,389 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    looksee wrote: »
    That is a noble effort, you would be cooked in that lot! Fair play to them though.
    Daftpunkini for me please, at least it's slightly reflective

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #3496
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,389 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Qs wrote: »
    I was in the sea up to me knees today with my shorts and t-shirt on while paddling with my kid. Should I have been arrested? Do you thing I was endangering myself and others?

    No, you were in fact protecting others from the awesomeness of your abs, women who saw them may have fainted while swimming, your choice to wear a t-shirt was a mercy to them and a sacrifice to maintain public safety.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #3497
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,389 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    unless you can prove mental illness perhaps, even if you do accept that someone has been 'conditioned' to do something, legally banning them from doing it is an absurd solution; wearing a burka in and of itself is not harmful.

    yes it is.

    Imagine you have a young lively daughter aged 11. She is full of confidence and enthusiasm, and wants to live life to the fullest.

    Imagine she hits puberty at 12 and is told that she is never again allowed to be outside her own house without being covered in heavy black robes from head to toe, and she can't even see outside without her vision being distorted by a black veil.

    Now you tell me that the burka is not harmful.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #3498
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,389 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Qs wrote: »
    Indeed. And that is why we should oppose fascism in all its forms. Be it Islamofascism or the fascism of the French banning clothing like the Burkini.

    The french are absolutely not fascists.

    If you want to experience something like fascism, you might want to take a trip to a theocratic state like Iran or Saudi Arabia, or Syria or even Egypt and Turkey the way things have been going recently.

    I'd also consider Russia to be very rapidly approaching Fascism but with a christian slant similar to Mussolini's Italy.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #3499
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Akrasia wrote: »
    yes it is.
    Imagine you have a young lively daughter aged 11. She is full of confidence and enthusiasm, and wants to live life to the fullest.
    Imagine she hits puberty at 12 and is told that she is never again allowed to be outside her own house without being covered in heavy black robes from head to toe, and she can't even see outside without her vision being distorted by a black veil.
    Now you tell me that the burka is not harmful.

    Perhaps it's the telling her she is never again allowed to be outside her own house without being covered in heavy black robes from head to toe, and she can't even see outside without her vision being distorted by a black veil that's harmful, rather than the clothing?

    I'd be much happier about seeing an education program teaching 12 year olds that how they treat their bodies is their choice, and whether they wear a burka or a bikini in the street will be up to them. There is no way a 12 year old will ever not be influenced by their parents or their peers, and there will always be someone who'll feel their choice is disgraceful one way or the other. If we can find a way to teach people that they can demonstrate their self respect by covering up or stripping off as they choose we'll all be better off in the long run.


  • #3500
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,389 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Absolam wrote: »
    Perhaps it's the telling her she is never again allowed to be outside her own house without being covered in heavy black robes from head to toe, and she can't even see outside without her vision being distorted by a black veil that's harmful, rather than the clothing?

    I'd be much happier about seeing an education program teaching 12 year olds that how they treat their bodies is their choice, and whether they wear a burka or a bikini in the street will be up to them. There is no way a 12 year old will ever not be influenced by their parents or their peers, and there will always be someone who'll feel their choice is disgraceful one way or the other. If we can find a way to teach people that they can demonstrate their self respect by covering up or stripping off as they choose we'll all be better off in the long run.
    A compulsory education program?

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #3501
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,815 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Qs wrote: »
    In a free society you should be perfectly entitled to hold extreme opinions and beliefs.

    Like it's ok to gas jews? Or torture atheists on the rack? etc. etc. :rolleyes:
    Many christians held these views, some still do. Nobody is calling for christianity to be banned, maybe they should.

    The Weimar Republic found out the hard way that freedom can only be defended by denying it to those who wish to destroy it.

    Freedom isn't free, it's won at a substantial cost - defeating and suppressing ideologies which are anthetical to freedom, often at the costs of many thousands of lives. Freedom by definition doesn't mean you can do whatever you like, because if you could you could deny me my freedoms or even my right to exist just because I disagree with you but you are in a position of power.

    My right to swing my fists freely ends at the tip of your nose. That's as far as personal freedom extends. It ends where it harms another.

    This applies to christianity as much as it does to islam or judaism or any other. They are all ideologies of hatred at their heart. Those who are in the in-club are 'saved', those outside are condemned in the supposed next life, and condemned by the religious in this life too.

    starshine1234 wrote: »
    The Ulster Pride march was banned in Dublin.

    It wasn't banned, it was curtailed for their own safety after the celtic-top wearing knuckleheads kicked off. I don't like them lot.

    I like even less, and would use some choice words to describe, FAIR et al. Suffice to say Willie is a person who looks for trouble and always finds it.

    starshine1234 wrote: »
    I would prefer if Islam was banned. In the name of public safety of course.

    So you agree with the Serbs? Expel or kill all bosniaks in Bosnia?

    Islam is not an enemy of Europe. Islamism, or to be more precise, Wahaabism is.
    I reject liberal retardness and I want my country back. I don't want Ireland to be like Sweden which is a hell hole, and a rape capital.

    Most of the Irish "I want my country back" brigade want us to return to a 1930s hellhole I'll fight to the death to destroy.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



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  • #3502
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Akrasia wrote: »
    A compulsory education program?
    Education is compulsory in Europe :)
    France, for example, has compulsory education from ages 6 to 16, which from quite early on includes classes on discovering the world and civics; excellent places to point out how French liberté & égalité extends to allowing citizens and residents choose how they dress in public, without being bound by anything other than their own appreciation of themselves. If it actually did extend that far, that is.


  • #3503
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,815 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Delirium wrote: »
    motokini :pac:

    https://twitter.com/wordfreeland/status/768747484327870464

    Bikers are libertarians in a good way - everyone should be allowed do what they want but have a social conscience. I'm a biker - I'm very conscious of how precarious my freedom is and how easily the ignorant can remove it. I'm also very conscious of how groups like religions get away with murder (in some cases literally) because of the privileged position some people are falling over themselves to give to them.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • #3504
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    You'll like this then (though I'd take it's authenticity with more than a soupçon of salt)

    French bikers protest burkini ban


  • #3505
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,906 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Absolam wrote: »
    You'll like this then (though I'd take it's authenticity with more than a soupçon of salt)

    French bikers protest burkini ban

    What is there to doubt about its authenticity? Two people, dressed in motorbike leathers lying on a beach. Are they not lying on a beach? Is it photoshopped? Does it matter? Did they not stay there long enough to be 'authentic'? How long was needed? Was it just a photo-op? Why does it matter? The point is well made.


  • #3506
    starshine1234
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 305 ✭✭starshine1234


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Most of the Irish "I want my country back" brigade want us to return to a 1930s hellhole I'll fight to the death to destroy.

    Do you want a civil war?

    Do you wish for your children to also have to fight to the death?

    You are a hate filled person and your post is full of abuse and hate. Can you not try to argue your points without all the hate?

    You're a typical leftist. You abuse everybody who doesn't agree with your insane ideas and policies. You use semantic arguments which are simply wrong. In summary, you're a horrible bigot, based on your posts of course.


  • #3507
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,112 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Like it's ok to gas jews? Or torture atheists on the rack? etc. etc. :rolleyes:
    Many christians held these views, some still do. Nobody is calling for christianity to be banned, maybe they should.
    yes, you *should* be free to hold these opinions. the brakes on the damage they cause apply when you try to put them into practice, or limit the lif or liberty of those you hold in contempt.
    you can't ban opinion.


  • #3508
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,815 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    starshine1234 wrote: »
    Do you want a civil war?

    Do you wish for your children to also have to fight to the death?

    You are a hate filled person and your post is full of abuse and hate. Can you not try to argue your points without all the hate?

    You're a typical leftist. You abuse everybody who doesn't agree with your insane ideas and policies. You use semantic arguments which are simply wrong. In summary, you're a horrible bigot, based on your posts of course.

    Wow. I haven't abused you. It says everything about the strength of your arguments that you immediately resort to abuse when called out on your nonsense. Pathetic and childish drivel.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • #3509
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,815 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    yes, you *should* be free to hold these opinions. the brakes on the damage they cause apply when you try to put them into practice, or limit the lif or liberty of those you hold in contempt.
    you can't ban opinion.

    No but every society bans the expression of views considered harmful.
    If one keeps one's hateful views to oneself then no-one will ever know.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • #3510
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    mrkiscool2 wrote: »
    Then just tell them not to swim? How are they supposed to enjoy the beach? And, by your earlier comments, these women aren't covering their face so should be fine. Or are you really just that anti-Islam they can't wear anything but what other people wear?

    I believe I was referring to nuns in the picture. Does that make me christianophobic? Or simply pointing out that wearing unsuitable attire in the sea is dangerous to your health and possibly others.

    If the Burkini is designed for sea, similar to a wetsuit or other water resistant light material, I don't object. I stated that before. Wearing a burka in the water however is dangerous as it will get heavy and the loose clothing will entangle you when wet.

    Maybe I care for their lives more than their fashion choices.


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  • #3511
    starshine1234
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 305 ✭✭starshine1234


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Wow. I haven't abused you. It says everything about the strength of your arguments that you immediately resort to abuse when called out on your nonsense. Pathetic and childish drivel.
    But you did.

    You completely mis-represented my position.

    I had said
    starshine1234 wrote:
    I would prefer if Islam was banned. In the name of public safety of course.
    Your hysterical reply.
    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    So you agree with the Serbs? Expel or kill all bosniaks in Bosnia?


    Did I say anything about killing people?
    Did I mention the Serbs or the Bosniaks?

    You tend to use hysterical type replies that address points people haven't made, or you tell people what they mean.

    I never said I wanted to kill people. That was only in your own head.


    Islam is an enemy of Europe. It calls for death to infidels. You are an infidel according to Islam. Therefore, you must convert or die.


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