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What's with women and HR (bloody ridiculous)

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    #32
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    You are ignoring a tonne of reasons for these disparities. Men being expected to work longer hours for example. In addition government policy actively preventing men taking roles as carers for children.
    If you look at remuneration v output you will find that your figures are based largely on assumptions that bear little relevance to the realities of the modern workplace.


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    #33
    livedadream
    Registered Users Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭livedadream


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Have you Irish figures? Alot of eastern europe has very traditional expectations of men and women. Women's Aid (I think it was) claimed (based on studies) that pre children women earn 17% more than men in Ireland.
    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Any figures for under age of 35?

    I doubt they are anywhere near as skewed as that


    jesus does it matter, the gender pay gap is real, its not some sudo man hating feminist speil. its a real thing.

    does it matter if its EU wide of Ireland specific?
    does it matter if it effects younger or older women?

    do some research, ask the women who work with you, your female friends, ask your Hr reps to do a review and see what comes about of it, look at the morgan mckinley salary survey and compare it to your wage and then the women around you.


    if it was the other way around there would be holy war over it.


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    #34
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Frank101 wrote: »
    ..........What also annoyed me, was that 5 weeks later, when I asked if there was any decision, I was told that they were still deciding (instead of just informing me I hadn't got it). The envelope came about a week later, so late that it interrupted the holiday plans I had...........

    A PFO letter interrupted holiday plans?


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    #35
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,307 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    http://www.nwci.ie/?/discover/what_we_do/womens_economic_independence/women_and_employment/gender_pay_gap/
    Figures from the OECD show that in Ireland the Gender Pay Gap for women with no children is -17% but this increases significantly to 14% for women with at least one child – a jump of 31 percentage points. The gender pay gap exists across the sectors.

    Women with no children earn more than men. The gap exists where a decision is made to start a family, usually at age 30 or over.


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    #36
    livedadream
    Registered Users Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭livedadream


    mzungu wrote: »
    http://www.nwci.ie/?/discover/what_we_do/womens_economic_independence/women_and_employment/gender_pay_gap/

    Women with no children earn more than men. The gap exists where a decision is made to start a family, usually at age 30 or over.


    no it doesnt women without children do not earn more than men.

    i agree that the gonvernment does not encourage equal shar eof childcare but the fact of the matter is women are penalised for reproducing and men are not.


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    #37
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    livedadream wrote: »
    jesus does it matter, the gender pay gap is real, its not some sudo man hating feminist speil. its a real thing.

    does it matter if its EU wide of Ireland specific?
    does it matter if it effects younger or older women?

    do some research, ask the women who work with you, your female friends, ask your Hr reps to do a review and see what comes about of it, look at the morgan mckinley salary survey and compare it to your wage and then the women around you.


    if it was the other way around there would be holy war over it.

    Emm....it deos matter on the age imo


    The whole CEOs thing and of senior management levels come from a time
    when there was more inequality...

    ..but I'd be fcuked if there's any wans my age what are treated unequal on basis of gender....that tjinking went out 20 odd years ago....and hence why the levels skewed at senior management and ceos??


    Itll all come to proper equality naturally as the older generations (good bit over 35s??) retire/die off


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    #38
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,307 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    livedadream wrote: »
    no it doesnt women without children do not earn more than men.

    your link agrees with me mate. if your going to link to stuff at least read it no where on that does it say women without children earn more than men.

    Read it again :p


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    #39
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    livedadream wrote: »
    jesus does it matter, the gender pay gap is real, its not some sudo man hating feminist speil. its a real thing.

    Of course it bloody matters. If I am expected to work harder and longer and sacrifice my relationship with my own children then damn right I expect to be paid more than someone who doesn't have to do these things.
    And of course an Irish study is more relevant.


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    #40
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,307 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    livedadream wrote: »
    no it doesnt women without children do not earn more than men.

    your link agrees with me mate. if your going to link to stuff at least read it no where on that does it say women without children earn more than men.

    the link you posted says:

    Figures from the OECD show that in Ireland the Gender Pay Gap for women with no children is -17% but this increases significantly to 14% for women with at least one child – a jump of 31 percentage points.

    A women with no children earns -17% more than a man. Yes.


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    #41
    livedadream
    Registered Users Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭livedadream


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Of course it bloody matters. If I am expected to work harder and longer and sacrifice my relationship with my owb childreb then dam right I expect to be paid more than someone who doesn't have to do things.
    And of course an Irish study is more relevant.


    okay im out, i earn more than the men i work with because im better at my job then them.

    is that discrimination no. its fact.

    im not going to sit here and argue with people who think the gender pay gap is either made up, or that its fair.

    there are studies and action to prevent it for a reason.

    enjoy your gentlemens club lads is seriously lacking any actual gentlemen.


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    #42
    livedadream
    Registered Users Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭livedadream


    mzungu wrote: »
    A women with no children earns -17% more than a man. Yes.


    ive edited the post before you linked too it.

    chillax


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    #43
    livedadream
    Registered Users Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭livedadream


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Of course it bloody matters. If I am expected to work harder and longer and sacrifice my relationship with my owb children then damn right I expect to be paid more than someone who doesn't have to do these things.
    And of course an Irish study is more relevant.

    then make the some choice women make and dont have kids. your choice mate.


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    #44
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,108 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    If you look at remuneration v output you will find that your figures are based largely on assumptions that bear little relevance to the realities of the modern workplace.
    Exactly. The "pay gap" is a pillar of modern feminism that really doesn't bear much scrutiny. Indeed when Irish government statistics are looked at by no less an august body than the National Women's council of Ireland's report

    The salient part is;

    The latest figures from the EU Commission show that the Gender Pay Gap in Ireland is 13.9% - in other words women in Ireland are paid almost 14% less than men. The Gender Pay Gap exists even though women do better at school and university than men.
    In the Irish context, what is perhaps most disturbing is the high cost of motherhood. Figures from the OECD show that in Ireland the Gender Pay Gap for women with no children is -17% but this increases significantly to 14% for women with at least one child – a jump of 31 percentage points. The gender pay gap exists across the sectors.
    For the bottom 10% of earners, the Gender Pay Gap in Ireland is 4% but this rises to 24.6% for the top 10% of income earners, suggesting the continued presence of a glass ceiling and indirect discrimination.

    Emphasis mine, because of their slithery and dishonest tactics to promote the Holy Gospel of Victimhood. Women with no kids get paid nearly 20% more than equivalent men. Funny how they don't directly mention that, and hide it as a minus. This is designed to confuse as it clearly has with livedadream. Makes sense too and as they note more women than men graduate second and third level and that gap is increasing. No bra burning over that mind you.

    As I said before when this has come up: The addition of children complicates things. Women who chose to have a child earlier in adulthood are more likely to forgo third level so job opportunities are going to be less. They're still seen and act as the primary carers so time constraints will impact a career at any stage, but especially at the start of a career.

    What I would like to see are the stats for say 30 to 35 year old women without children compared to men of of the same age range. I'll bet the farm the so called "paygap" and "glass ceiling" doesn't exist and indeed it seems goes the other way.

    As for the "paygap" at the top? Similar things going on. More women are going to dial back when they start a family, many in my experience all too willingly, so that will impact their final earning potential. Secondly men, or more men than women are risk takers, rasher and adrenaline junkies(scientifically provable) and that mindset is more likely to be entrepreneurial, more likely to start their own business, or drive harder within a career for longer. They're also more likely to be obsessive and singular. A better stat to look at would be to compare like with like, IE compare men entrepreneurs with women entrepreneurs. Again I'll bet the farm their earnings are about equal.

    As usual we have the case of comparing "average women" with an "elite". However if one was to compare the "average man" with the same elite they would find themselves lower than the "average woman". At least 17% lower it seems.

    And as Letree points out if women were so much cheaper and would work the same hours at the same level of expertise/qualifications why would companies hire men at all? It would make poor business sense to do so. Never mind that they're on average less likely to strike and/or complain. Of course there's little clamour from third wave feminists when it comes to the dirty jobs men do. The dangerous jobs that often pay well, but death and injury are real concerns. Over ninety five percent of workplace deaths are men.

    Take another example from corporate America. Asian Americans are paid on average more than European Americans. Are the feminists suggesting that this means corporate America is anti White America? Get off the stage.

    Oh and not so long ago the feminist dogma included an "education gap" and some still cling to that wreckage even when it's beyond clear that women are more likely to finish second and third level and are more likely to have a degree.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #45
    Frank101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 185 ✭✭Frank101


    livedadream wrote: »
    sorry, have you actually just tired to claim that the gender pay gap doesnt exist?

    are you on drugs?

    the European Commission
    PWC
    JP Morgan

    have all done studies proving it exisits.

    hold on are you one of those people that believe we didnt land on the moon? that elvis and 2pac are working in McDonalds in Texas and that the grassy knoll shooter was CIA?

    simple figures: For the economy as a whole, in 2014, women's gross hourly earnings were on average 16.1 % below those of men in the European Union (EU-28) and 16.5% in the euro area (EA-18). Across Member States, the gender pay gap varied by 25.4 percentage points, ranging from 2.9 % in Slovenia to 28.3 % in Estonia.

    like im all for people saying men are better at some things etc etc the usual equal but different. but trying to say something as serious as the gender pay gap doesnt exist is just riduclious...
    He was trying to imply that there's a reason they're willing to pay men more, not that it doesn't exist.

    For example, a Mexican would get job before me, as I wouldn't be willing to work for €2/hr. But that example isn't analogous to women/men.


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    #46
    Wigglepuppy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭Wigglepuppy


    Frank101 wrote: »
    It's seems women get to be the judge of a lot of things in this life. And with over 90% of women in HR, it's no surprise. You'd have to wonder is their screening process biased.

    I remember being interviewed by two women once. One was probably a year younger than me, she seemed so naive and gave me a handshake like a robot. The other probably in her 30s. The first question was 'tell me about yourself?' I, like a lot of people, didn't really know where to start, so at one point I remember stopping myself in order to try and address the question better. A slight moment of dead air, and as I looked across the table, they were both looking at each other with a smile. I didn't make me feel good. I had no choice but to still give 100% effort, just in case, was something that irked me.

    You'd have to wonder, is it human nature, for women to be more inclined to choose a man that is more charming or witty during the interview than one that isn't. This job was for a lab technician! What also annoyed me, was that 5 weeks later, when I asked if there was any decision, I was told that they were still deciding (instead of just informing me I hadn't got it). The envelope came about a week later, so late that it interrupted the holiday plans I had.

    I'm definitely having no luck with the ladies at the moment, both in bars, and in interviews! And there's likely a correlation between the two!
    How can you expect women to like you with that attitude towards them? How come other guys don't share the same experiences as you with women? (And they're not all really good-looking or cocky "bad boys").
    Do you mean over 90% of people in HR are women maybe?

    But anyway, the gender pay gap is a myth - men and women are paid the same wages. Are people seriously saying companies are paying for particular roles according to whether the candidates are male or female? Because that would get a company into a hell of a lot of trouble. Women on average earn less then men because of the types of jobs they go for and because of maternity leave. It's a very misleading claim.


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    #47
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,108 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    livedadream wrote: »
    okay im out, i earn more than the men i work with because im better at my job then them.

    is that discrimination no. its fact.
    So why would you take issue with men earning more for the same reasons?
    im not going to sit here and argue with people who think the gender pay gap is either made up, or that its fair.

    there are studies and action to prevent it for a reason.
    That's the wrong question(s) to ask. The pay gap, like the "1 in 4/5/6(depending on the weather) women have been sexually assaulted is an extremely shaky feminist concept based on extremely shaky logic and "studies".
    enjoy your gentlemens club lads is seriously lacking any actual gentlemen.
    *toys out of pram* You could have suggested we were lacking in the trouser dept too. Or live in basements. Wide choice of such comebacks when your ability to debate falters and you fall back on digs.

    Oh and how do you define a "gentleman"? It really appears to be "man who agrees I'm right". Eh no.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #48
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,108 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Wigglepuppy wrote: »
    Women on average earn less then men because of the types of jobs they go for and because of maternity leave. It's a very misleading claim.
    True, except in Ireland today women on average earn more than men on average if they have no kids, regardless of these job choices. And given that the education gap is widening that is likely to continue to widen too. And we'll still hear witterings about the pay gap.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #49
    Frank101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 185 ✭✭Frank101


    Wigglepuppy wrote: »
    How can you expect women to like you with that attitude towards them? How come other guys don't share the experiences as you with women (and they're not all really good-looking or cocky "bad boys").
    Once again, boards.ie is the only place I've shown that attitude. It's not like I go out to bars and clubs with a sour puss on me while thinking about this. Don't bother going down that road. I said I'd put the thought out there to see what people say. I didn't say I was right.


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    #50
    Wigglepuppy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭Wigglepuppy


    Wibbs wrote: »
    True, except in Ireland today women on average earn more than men on average if they have no kids, regardless of these job choices. And given that the education gap is widening that is likely to continue to widen too. And we'll still hear witterings about the pay gap.
    Oh I wasn't contradicting anything about women earning more (didn't know that) just giving reasons why there is a perceived gap where women are paid less.
    Frank101 wrote: »
    Once again, boards.ie is the only place I've shown that attitude. It's not like I go out to bars and clubs with a sour puss on me while thinking about this. Don't bother going down that road. I said I'd put the thought out there to see what people say. I didn't say I was right.
    Fair enough - nothing wrong with giving information about your experiences, but being critical of women as a whole is not the way to go about it; it's no better than being critical of men as a whole.


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    #51
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,176 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Wibbs wrote: »
    ...Oh and how do you define a "gentleman"? It really appears to be "man who agrees I'm right". Eh no.

    A Gentleman is someone who will debate your position vigorously, vehemently and occasionally robustly, ideally over a snifter of Courvoisier, and defend, with a flintlock, your right to argue that position. He is not a lickspittle nodding-dog who'll agree with everything you say like a nineteen-year-old trying to Go Ugly Early. :D


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    #52
    Frank101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 185 ✭✭Frank101


    jimgoose wrote: »
    A Gentleman is someone who will debate your position vigorously, vehemently and occasionally robustly, ideally over a snifter of Courvoisier, and defend, with a flintlock, your right to argue that position. He is not a lickspittle nodding-dog who'll agree with everything you say like a ninteen-year-old trying to Go Ugly Early. :D
    go ugly early?


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    #53
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,176 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Frank101 wrote: »
    go ugly early?

    Look it up!


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    #54
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Frank101 wrote: »
    go ugly early?

    Guessing nights out and getting your hole :P


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    #55
    Frank101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 185 ✭✭Frank101


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Guessing nights out and getting your hole :P
    Going ugly early is the act of admitting to yourself that you will not hook up with a good looking girl/guy no matter how long you hang around the night club.

    You always end up taking the ugliest girl anyway, so why not just go ugly early and get it over with.


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    #56
    flutered
    Registered Users Posts: 6,676 ✭✭✭flutered


    jimgoose wrote: »
    In my experience it is quite common to have separate HR and "technical" interviews during the whole New Job rigmarole. The HR interview is, in simple terms, to verify that you a) are human, b) can dress yourself appropriately when leaving the house c) can speak and act in a manner most would regard as "normal". A majority of HR people I've encountered are women, but I wouldn't say anywhere in the vicinity of 90%.
    i came across a few of the female ones, women no, stuck up my way or the highway harradians certainly


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    #57
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Figures from the OECD show that in Ireland the Gender Pay Gap for women with no children is -17% but this increases significantly to 14% for women with at least one child

    It really shows the nonsense of the modern feminist concept of equality when going from a 17% gap to a 14% gap is described as an increase.


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    #58
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,287 ✭✭✭✭fits


    Wibbs wrote: »
    True, except in Ireland today women on average earn more than men on average if they have no kids, regardless of these job choices.

    Is that not a cause for concern? Women on average do better in school and university and earn more in their early career, and then it collapses to a 14% gap after children come into the equation.

    Is there not something radically wrong there? Surely we should be encouraging men to share the burden.


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    #59
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    fits wrote: »
    Is there not something radically wrong there? Surely we should be encouraging men to share the burden.

    Agree with this completely. Make a Father equal to a Mother and these 'gaps' would disappear in a couple of generations.


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    #60
    jackinthemix94
    Closed Accounts Posts: 293 ✭✭jackinthemix94


    fits wrote: »
    Is that not a cause for concern? Women on average do better in school and university and earn more in their early career, and then it collapses to a 14% gap after children come into the equation.

    Is there not something radically wrong there? Surely we should be encouraging men to share the burden.

    So we should encourage men to ask for less? Or we should encourage them to drop out the work force?

    What we need is government policy that supports 2 working parents (Scandinavian style government childcare).


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    #61
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,287 ✭✭✭✭fits


    jackinthemix94 wrote: »

    What we need is government policy that supports 2 working parents (Scandinavian style government childcare).

    I completely agree with you thats what we need. Ive worked in a Nordic country and the contrast is stark. My male colleagues regularly take months long paternity leave. Their max childcare cost is approx 300 euro per month.

    The attitude in this trend that well its fine until they have kids, is staggering, frankly. Children have two parents. Why does the burden fall to one? There is a major problem.


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