Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Burka ban

1…108109111113114…138

Comments

  • #3302
    Tadeo Quiet Waste
    Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Tadeo Quiet Waste


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    YES. if they follow extremist versions of Islam. Both religiously, traditionally and culturally they are forced into it.

    I am not talking about the idiots in Ireland that convert and decide to wear it as a badge of honor for their new faith. They MAY or may not end up being forced or simply go back to hijabs or (while still awful) niqabs.

    You have answered yes and no to the question in one step.

    Could you clarify if 100% of Burka wearers are forced to wear one please?


  • #3303
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,116 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    YES. if they follow extremist versions of Islam. Both religiously, traditionally and culturally they are forced into it.
    unless you can prove actual coercion of someone into wearing a burka, it is *extremely* patronising and patriarchical to insist that this poor woman does not know what she is doing, and to insist she stop.

    sure, you can have legitimate concerns about the culture which values a woman being kept covered up; but wearing a burka in and of itself is not harmful, even though you can argue the mindset which values the burka is. because you have to allow people to make their own choices, and if a woman gets up in the morning and dons a burka before leaving the house, without coercion, that is her choice.

    on one thread here, we have people arguing for a woman's right to autonomy over her body - her body, her choice. then in here (not necessarily the same) people are arguing that we must protect women from their own choices.


  • #3304
    Tadeo Quiet Waste
    Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Tadeo Quiet Waste


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    YES. if they follow extremist versions of Islam. Religiously, traditionally and culturally they are forced into it. If you study Islam and the way they view women and take into account their honor culture and the extremist attempts to be 'pure' in the eyes of their community, they are forced into it.
    Ask one of them to remove it in public and they are distressed. You don't get distressed for no reason. Its not just a fashion accessory.

    I am not talking about the idiots in Ireland that convert and decide to wear it as a badge of honor for their new faith. They MAY or may not end up being forced or simply go back to hijabs or (while still awful) niqabs.

    Have you watched any of 'Better Call Saul'?

    Saul's brother Chuck believes that he is hyper sensitive to electromagnetic forces, and so wears an emergency blanket as an attempt at some form of Faraday Cage when he leaves the house.

    If you ask him to remove it, he would become incensed and extraordinarily distressed. If I recall properly he actually faints at one stage.

    Would you suggest we ban him wearing the blanket? Or would you recommend that we treat the reasons behind him believing that he has to wear that blanket?

    (There's a fantastic parallel here - being that this is A&A - and what we do find out about Chuck but if you have not watched it I won't ruin it)


  • #3305
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Deleted User wrote: »
    You have answered yes and no to the question in one step.

    Could you clarify if 100% of Burka wearers are forced to wear one please?

    I never said 100% of burka wearers are forced to wear it. I said that those that follow extremist religious sects are. Those are the ones that I find are being abused by it. Other converted muslim women, in places like Ireland, where they decide to pick Islam because their new boyfriend is muslim, may or may not be forced into it.
    You are trying to strawman me.
    IF ANY women are forced to wear it, it is a problem. Are you ok with 99% of women being forced to wear it if a few are not? Banning it liberates women and helps stop the promotion of this extremist movement.
    Regular muslims will not be affected AT ALL.
    The idea that it liberates women is a lie, an outcome of promotion of guilt and fear and a view that all men are beasts that women are responsible for keeping in check. Failure means you deserve what happens to you. In Islam it is forbidden to rape women IF they are observant. It is very specific about that. Its a constant threat. And that is not even mentioning their version if hell, which in Islam consists MOSTLY of women according to Mohammed.


  • #3306
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,066 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    Again with the argument from the NRA. If someone asks you to remove your cap or glasses, you do, without any effort or stigma. Muslim women are FORCED to wear the burka (those that follow extremist versions). They are forced by their husbands, mothers and fathers, brothers and muslim community. There are some that are so fanatical (like monks wearing a hair shirt) that they like it but it affects many that don't like it but must do it.
    The point is that baseball caps and sunglasses haven't been banned. Nor have any face coverings other than burkas (I'm not heard that novelty masks are banned for example).

    With regard to issue of women being forced to wear the burka, how does replacing one authority figure with another with regards to clothing improve their lot?
    A ban would allow those women to live without it while the muslims that claim they have a 'choice' are not pressured anyway so its not an issue.
    A fashion statement being restricted is not harming women, however it covers the issue that for every woman who 'likes' it, there is another that does not, but must and the woman who 'likes' it will be happy to see the other woman wear it regardless.
    And the ban also denies any women who may choose to wear the burka the choice to do so.
    Just in case you missed the link. The primary victims of Islamic extremism are muslims and the MOST persecuted minority is WOMEN. The terrorism is the burka ON women. It is a cruel and inhuman garment that is designed to terrorise muslim WOMEN into submission.
    You may have a point in some countries. But can you prove that is the case in countries such as Belgium?
    Those that don't are condemned, threated, raped, beaten or otherwise mistreated, even in the west. Husbands can BEAT their wives in Islam, in the QURAN, for not obeying them. Such abuse is well known. Covering abuse like this with a full body tent also helps this abuse get hidden too.
    Would it not be better to make access to shelters/police etc easier for Muslim women instead of legislating to punish them for their clothing?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Advertisement
  • #3307
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,116 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    Failure means you deserve what happens to you. In Islam it is forbidden to rape women IF they are observant. It is very specific about that. Its a constant threat.
    yes, but - rape is illegal. no-one is arguing otherwise. it's an horrific crime, and the very definition means consent is withheld.
    women do consent to wearing the burka. much as that comes as an issue to you, they do consent to it. you cannot in any sensible argument draw a parallel between it and rape.


  • #3308
    Tadeo Quiet Waste
    Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Tadeo Quiet Waste


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    I never said 100% of burka wearers are forced to wear it
    When I asked you if 100% of wearers were forced to do so, you replied Yes. :confused:
    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    . I said that those that follow extremist religious sects are. Those are the ones that I find are being abused by it. Other converted muslim women, in places like Ireland, where they decide to pick Islam because their new boyfriend is muslim, may or may not be forced into it.
    You are trying to strawman me.
    IF ANY women are forced to wear it, it is a problem. Are you ok with 99% of women being forced to wear it if a few are not? Banning it liberates women and helps stop the promotion of this extremist movement.
    Regular muslims will not be affected AT ALL.
    The idea that it liberates women is a lie, an outcome of promotion of guilt and fear and a view that all men are beasts that women are responsible for keeping in check. Failure means you deserve what happens to you. In Islam it is forbidden to rape women IF they are observant. It is very specific about that. Its a constant threat. And that is not even mentioning their version if hell, which in Islam consists MOSTLY of women according to Mohammed.

    Where did you get this percentage from?

    Anyone being forced to wear anything is a problem.

    The garment is not the issue though, it is the act of forcing someone to do something against their will that is the problem.

    Removing that garment from everyday life will change what about that sort of abusive relationship?


  • #3309
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Have you watched any of 'Better Call Saul'?

    Saul's brother Chuck believes that he is hyper sensitive to electromagnetic forces, and so wears an emergency blanket as an attempt at some form of Faraday Cage when he leaves the house.

    If you ask him to remove it, he would become incensed and extraordinarily distressed. If I recall properly he actually faints at one stage.

    Would you suggest we ban him wearing the blanket? Or would you recommend that we treat the reasons behind him believing that he has to wear that blanket?

    (There's a fantastic parallel here - being that this is A&A - and what we do find out about Chuck but if you have not watched it I won't ruin it)

    No I have not watched it, although I hear it is good. Don't spoil it please.

    As far as parralels. It is important to note that it is not ONE woman deciding to make her own hell. It is a deeply misogynistic culture that developed this view and seeks to spread it around.
    The reasons are barbaric for wearing the burka. I fully agree we should shine a light on those reasons as much as possible.
    However we still need to treat the symptom of the most extreme forms of it because it affects women (and girls) today. The reasons for it, and the harm FROM it, are not isolated. It causes harm outside of the original motive for wearing.
    I never said that we JUST ban the burka and never address the underlying causes, but by banning it it helps women by allowing the underlying cause to be discussed. Otherwise it just gets accepted as the norm. Just another piece of attire, the religious and traditional damage gets ignored and later if brought up, viewed as a renewed attack on muslims, to shut that discussion down again.
    Extremist muslims DON'T want to discuss that issue, because it is openly hostile to our culture and they know it.


  • #3310
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Deleted User wrote: »
    When I asked you if 100% of wearers were forced to do so, you replied Yes. :confused:


    Where did you get this percentage from?

    Anyone being forced to wear anything is a problem.

    The garment is not the issue though, it is the act of forcing someone to do something against their will that is the problem.

    Removing that garment from everyday life will change what about that sort of abusive relationship?

    You ignored my caveats on the 100% thing. Read my posts again. I never said all muslims who wear it are forced, I said, quite clearly, that they are forced if they are in extremist forms of that religion. And by forced I don't just mean physically but mentally and socially too. If you bothered to study WHY the attire exists and how it is worn in other countries with strong muslim support for it you would see the issue.

    You brought up percentages, not me. You seem to think if ANY muslim has a choice then no problem exists. Many muslims DON'T, not really. Some may be brainwashed into thinking or at least publically saying they do, but the reasoning behind it is terrible. You can have an abused woman cling to her abuser too, saying how much she loves him and he her, telling the police to mind their own business. It does not remove the fact they abuse is still going on.

    Removing it means it stops being acceptable. It stops being considered normal and thus the symptom is contained. The underlying issues can be discussed. But if even the MOST extreme forms of it are viewed as ok, what is left to discuss.

    It reminds me of the muslim on Big Questions show that compared FGM to hair cutting and did not see any problem with it. If you normalise it, it is easier to hide the abuses behind it. Why do you think these discussions get shut down constantly. Muslim extremists DON'T want to address the issue, they want you to accept it as normal. Once normal there is no discussion.


  • #3311
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    yes, but - rape is illegal. no-one is arguing otherwise. it's an horrific crime, and the very definition means consent is withheld.
    women do consent to wearing the burka. much as that comes as an issue to you, they do consent to it. you cannot in any sensible argument draw a parallel between it and rape.
    Women 'consent' to have sex with their husbands too, after enough beatings. There is a parallel and its sad you don't know enough about the topic to grasp it.
    In Islam marriage rape is allowed (at least in the more religious sects) because a woman is conditioned to see that the husband has authority over her and that god will curse her if she disobeys.

    Now move that idea outside of the bedroom. That is what the burka is. A continuation of that abuse.


  • Advertisement
  • #3312
    Qs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Qs


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    YES. if they follow extremist versions of Islam. Religiously, traditionally and culturally they are forced into it.

    I've heard and read many who wear it say they are not forced to do so, are you claiming to know what they want better than they do themselves?


  • #3313
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,116 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    You brought up percentages, not me. You seem to think if ANY muslim has a choice then no problem exists. Many muslims DON'T, not really. Some may be brainwashed into thinking or at least publically saying they do, but the reasoning behind it is terrible. You can have an abused woman cling to her abuser too, saying how much she loves him and he her, telling the police to mind their own business. It does not remove the fact they abuse is still going on.
    the abuse is the problem - and abuse is illegal.
    just because the veil is a symptom of abuse in some cases, does not justify banning it. it's like banning bruising when your husband punches you. the bruise itself is not the problem, and you are chasing symptoms to no benefit.

    and if someone truly believes that they should not be seen outside without a full veil, do you not see how your ham fisted attempt at 'helping' them could be pushing them even further into the potentially abusive relationship you are trying to save them from? in that you may trap them in their own homes?


  • #3314
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,116 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Qs wrote: »
    are you claiming to know what they want better than they do themselves?
    this is the nub of the matter. it's scarily illiberal.


  • #3315
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Delirium wrote: »
    The point is that baseball caps and sunglasses haven't been banned. Nor have any face coverings other than burkas (I'm not heard that novelty masks are banned for example).
    The MOTIVE for wearing it is different. How is this hard to understand. You cannot wear novelty mask anywhere you want either (baring small children at parties perhaps and Halloween). It is NOT just a form of clothing you would 'like' to wear or not. Even a cross is not equivalent as far as religious attire.
    Delirium wrote: »
    With regard to issue of women being forced to wear the burka, how does replacing one authority figure with another with regards to clothing improve their lot?
    The state is not beating your face in at home and risking your life.
    Delirium wrote: »
    And the ban also denies any women who may choose to wear the burka the choice to do so.
    But they HAVE a choice. Most don't. Banning it gives them their freedom. The others always had the option anyway so they are not losing anything really.
    NOT wearing it does not inhibit them in ANY way. Wearing it DOES.
    Its similar to people claiming they DON'T want to marry gay people so marriage equality is a bad idea. The excuse to allow the wearing of the burka is bogus. Its a screen for the abuse of that garment.
    Delirium wrote: »
    You may have a point in some countries. But can you prove that is the case in countries such as Belgium?
    If they are following the same religion the same way then the same issues arise (although without government support perhaps).
    Delirium wrote: »
    Would it not be better to make access to shelters/police etc easier for Muslim women instead of legislating to punish them for their clothing?

    The goal is not to punish them. Its to prevent their husbands/fathers from keeping them oppressed legally. The goal was never to punish muslim women but to stem the abuse such attire attracts.(plus the standard security concerns of complete concealment of identity.)
    Do you think muslims who ban the garment seek to punish muslim women or hate muslims? what about the muslim women who support bans on this awful garment. Do they seek to punish women or perhaps they know what goes on in the backgroun that the burkas cover for.


  • #3316
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Qs wrote: »
    I've heard and read many who wear it say they are not forced to do so, are you claiming to know what they want better than they do themselves?

    I've read (and posted references in this thread) of first hand accounts covering both cases, and personally am of the opinion that both exist. That said, I haven't seen any studies showing what the relative proportions are, and think such information would be very difficult to gather. If we accept that the individual first hand accounts given are true in both cases, even though this evidence is anecdotal, we are still left with the situation that in some cases the burqa is being used as a tool to oppress women. If you believe Fadela Amara and her supporters, the incidence of this is high in the ghettos on the outskirts of Paris. Because it is not the case for many burqa wearers, does not in any way the say the same is true for all burqa wearers.


  • #3317
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Qs wrote: »
    I've heard and read many who wear it say they are not forced to do so, are you claiming to know what they want better than they do themselves?

    Perhaps you should ask those that are. Or probe a bit deeper.
    Its not mind reading. It attempts to justify it from their religion, one can study their religion and see whether it is. It is not.
    Their claims of freedom is based on a messed up mentality about purity, where the woman is a sex object responsible for any attractions men have for them.

    Study the underlying reasons for it. Also many don't have a clue WHY they wear it, just that they should. They lack any real justification other than social pressure and poorly grasped theology.

    Again its not JUST me, I am reflecting what the majority of muslims view on the burka, including women. It is not justified, its motives are political and it is not needed at all.


  • #3318
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,116 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    The state is not beating your face in at home and risking your life.

    But they HAVE a choice. Most don't. Banning it gives them their freedom. The others always had the option anyway so they are not losing anything really.
    NOT wearing it does not inhibit them in ANY way. Wearing it DOES.
    STOP.
    please, just stop.
    you are unable to fathom that someone may choose to wear a full veil, so you have decided that the vast majority are beaten into doing so. it betrays an astonishing lack of imagination on your part.

    if they truly believe that they should not be seen in public without a veil - a belief they are *fully* entitled to - as pointed out, refusing them the ability to go out in public without one could be the most inhibiting thing you could do to them, whether or not they chose or were beaten into that belief.

    this is reminding me of the prayer on the plane thread, where the rhetoric of the problem prayer supposedly creates ratchets higher and higher to the point where it's too absurd to even fathom.


  • #3319
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,116 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    actually, in a funny kind of way, some of the opinions here remind me of stories i've heard about christian missionaries 'liberating' primitive cultures from their foolish beliefs.


  • #3320
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    the abuse is the problem - and abuse is illegal.
    just because the veil is a symptom of abuse in some cases, does not justify banning it. it's like banning bruising when your husband punches you. the bruise itself is not the problem, and you are chasing symptoms to no benefit.

    and if someone truly believes that they should not be seen outside without a full veil, do you not see how your ham fisted attempt at 'helping' them could be pushing them even further into the potentially abusive relationship you are trying to save them from? in that you may trap them in their own homes?

    Are you serious. banning bruises? That is your comparison.
    Let me give you another. Chains from wrist to ankle. If a religious sect stated that their women had to wear them at all times outside the home and someone said that these should be banned, would you then say "hold on, whats wrong with a bit of jewellry, are we gonna ban watches next" or say "well the culture behind this is bad but how is banning chains from wrist to ankle a positive move".

    You are allowing the extremists to threaten you into accepting extremist views. Basically "if you stop my extremism I am going to hurt myself".
    If husbands/ brothers/ fathers imprison people then they go to jail. If women decide they prefer to stay at home unless they can be as extreme as possible, without ANY pressure from elsewhere (after all its their CHOICE, isn't it), I doubt that will be many, or last long, because they are going to find it horrible and are imprisoning themselves. Instead they simply downgrade their fanaticism to a less ridiculous level and live an normal life.
    If illegal to wear such attire then mosques that preach otherwise (or seek to encourage punishments if they obey the law) get reported. We will not miss them and neither will moderate muslims.

    So unless you WANT to accommodate the most extreme religious views that you admit abuse women to flourish, I would say stop trying to find lame excuses and accept the ban is best for everyone.


  • #3321
    Qs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Qs


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    Perhaps you should ask those that are. Or probe a bit deeper.
    Its not mind reading. It attempts to justify it from their religion, one can study their religion and see whether it is. It is not.
    Their claims of freedom is based on a messed up mentality about purity, where the woman is a sex object responsible for any attractions men have for them.

    Study the underlying reasons for it. Also many don't have a clue WHY they wear it, just that they should. They lack any real justification other than social pressure and poorly grasped theology.

    Again its not JUST me, I am reflecting what the majority of muslims view on the burka, including women. It is not justified, its motives are political and it is not needed at all.

    All that stuff is a reasonable critique of the Burqa but none of it justifies a ban. I agree you have to be pretty much crazy to wear one but thats why I don't wear one and I don't make my wife wear one. However I don't think its reasonable to tell people they cannot wear it.


  • Advertisement
  • #3322
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm religious and support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    if they truly believe that they should not be seen in public without a veil - a belief they are *fully* entitled to - as pointed out, refusing them the ability to go out in public without one could be the most inhibiting thing you could do to them, whether or not they chose or were beaten into that belief.

    We are all entitled to our beliefs, but if those beliefs restrict how we can operate within society is that the fault of society? If society imposes a burqa ban for example (for whatever reason), in means we are not entitled to wear a burqa in public, regardless of our beliefs.


  • #3323
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    however, you can have terrorism without a burka.

    You might like to understand the arguments better then.
    Crime is not incontrovertibly linked to guns however. But guns do help in making crime worse and more dangerous. Hence the call for stricter gun laws. The NRA try to point out that "not all" crime involves guns so guns are not a problem and stricter gun laws are just persecuting the innocent gun owners.

    Yes but the burka is a FORM of terrorism. But because you don't give a damn about muslim women who are victims of it, you cannot even consider that a form of terrorism. No, I am guessing you view it as terrorism to YOU personally. But the world does not revolve around you. Terrorism is not just aimed at you.

    Burkas are the pinnacle symbol of a rape culture in Islam. Wear it or you deserve what happens next. That is terror. Then add in hell for good measure.

    But you don't see that as terror because you only think about yourself when someone says terrorism.


  • #3324
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,116 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    But because you don't give a damn about muslim women who are victims of it, you cannot even consider that a form of terrorism. No, I am guessing you view it as terrorism to YOU personally. But the world does not revolve around you. Terrorism is not just aimed at you.
    that's some leap of logic.

    some women choose to wear the burka.
    it's not your place to tell them they can't.


  • #3325
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,116 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    You keep talking about terrorism. The greatest act of terrorism here is to ban women who truly believe they should not go out in public without a veil, from doing so. And that applies whether they are doing it via choice or if they are being coerced into doing so. You'll be placing them in an impossible position, or further compounding one on them. But don't let that get in the way of your quest to save them.


  • #3326
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    that's some leap of logic.

    some women choose to wear the burka.
    it's not your place to tell them they can't.

    Their reasons are lies. Their activity provides cover for abuses and helps hide those abuses from the public (both literally and figuratively)

    If extremist christians decided to wear in public the full white uniforms of the KKK with full face covering I would object, but even their attire is not remotely as abusive and damaging as the burka, even if there were the same quantity wearing it (which there is not). Its hard to imagine worse attire.
    But hey, if some want to promote it, lets forget the victims, the history, the theology, and just let it happen. Its not like normalizing burkas ever harmed anyone (oh wait).


  • #3327
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    You keep talking about terrorism. The greatest act of terrorism here is to ban women who truly believe they should not go out in public without a veil, from doing so. And that applies whether they are doing it via choice or if they are being coerced into doing so. You'll be placing them in an impossible position, or further compounding one on them. But don't let that get in the way of your quest to save them.

    I would consider that forcing them to believe they are doomed UNLESS they wear a mobile tent with threats of hell and rape is far worse than me seeking to give them a good legal excuse for more moderate attire.


  • #3328
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,116 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    Their reasons are lies.
    The arrogance is breathtaking. Are women who choose to join cloistered orders liars too?


  • #3329
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm religious and support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    some women choose to wear the burka.
    it's not your place to tell them they can't.

    But a democratic society can tell them this, regardless of the reasons that society uses to justify its decisions. Part of being a member of society is to obey its laws, even if you think they are unduly restrictive or simply wrong. I don't think any member of any society will be entirely happy will all of the laws in place, and this is doubly true of immigrants from different cultures. The choice is compromise and maybe lobby for change or live somewhere else.

    In some ways I'm very cynical about the burqa thing, in that I think many countries want to be visibly intolerant of Islam at a time when there are a lot of impoverished Muslim immigrants on move, such that they become a less attractive destination.


  • #3330
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,116 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    smacl wrote: »
    But a democratic society can tell them this, regardless of the reasons that society uses to justify its decisions. Part of being a member of society is to obey its laws, even if you think they are unduly restrictive or simply wrong.
    Even accepting the above, we're not arguing the legalities of the issue, we're arguing the moralities of it. A free society is one in which people are free to believe what they want to believe or practice whatever culture they want to as long as it causes no harm. A woman choosing to wear a veil does not cause greater harm in society and should be left to her own devices, even if we disagree with her choice. A woman coerced into wearing a veil will not be helped by a ban. Whatever benefits there are in a ban, they are so heavily outweighed by the drawbacks that I don't think it deserves serious consideration.


  • Advertisement
  • #3331
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    The arrogance is breathtaking. Are women who choose to join cloistered orders liars too?
    Being arrogant does not mean I am wrong. Just well informed.
    "Are women who choose to join cloistered orders liars too?"
    Just delusional, naivé or insane. Lying to themselves too probably.

    However religious orders are not the same as society at large and this attitude to cover up goes all the way down to small girls.


Advertisement