The US Think They Can Extradite Gary Davis

ohnonotgmail · 12-08-2016 03:02PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Not sure of how the legalese works out here, but while it is true, they did so in many countries throughout the world. So what if as well as the US, another half dozen countries wanted him extradited to THEIR country for prosecution... how do you decide who 'gets to have' him?

whoever wants him the most. or perhaps whoever has the strongest case against him.

Means Of Escape · 12-08-2016 03:51PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

If a company breaks the law, are all employees worldwide held liable?

He was probably fairly high in the group possibly from his tech abilities and would be the main target in all this .
Once they nail him it's easy to discover his accomplices with plea bargains that no doubt will be offered to him .
Either way he's marked and it will be next to impossible to get off scott free let alone avoid extradition
He is classified as a cyber criminal .

jimmy blevins · 12-08-2016 04:28PM

If this lad had been doing the crime through more traditional means nobody would be too bothered. Don't know what it is about the "tech community" that seems to value narcissistic and individualist traits above all else.

The man's a facilitator for serious criminal offences that harm people in the real world at the end of the day.

LoLth · 12-08-2016 04:37PM

He should stand trial in the states (and anywhere else that his actions have affected by enabling the trafficking of illegal materials) but if found guilty he should serve his sentence in Ireland. To server a sentence abroad, whatever his mental state, would be unfair imho as it is essentially cutting him off from any family support or friends who would otherwise be able to visit.

choice: shorter sentence abroad or full sentence here. all parole / early release hearings should be held via video link and judged by a panel in the country where the crime was committed.

of course, then you have the issue of who pays for the internment and cost of upkeep.

Means Of Escape · 12-08-2016 05:33PM

LoLth wrote: »

He should stand trial in the states (and anywhere else that his actions have affected by enabling the trafficking of illegal materials) but if found guilty he should serve his sentence in Ireland. To server a sentence abroad, whatever his mental state, would be unfair imho as it is essentially cutting him off from any family support or friends who would otherwise be able to visit.

choice: shorter sentence abroad or full sentence here. all parole / early release hearings should be held via video link and judged by a panel in the country where the crime was committed.

of course, then you have the issue of who pays for the internment and cost of upkeep.

I'd go a step further and recruit the man as a decoder and breaker of underground links as part of his sentence rather than putting him into the sh1t hole prisons in America.
It has been done before under strict rules .Nothing will be achieved sending him to the slammer . He will be fed to the wolves .
Having Aspergers he would spend endless hours focused on the tasks asked of him
I'm sure he and his family would be agreeable to that
He was an administrator so he knows the gig and was probably excellent at it .

20Cent · 12-08-2016 05:54PM

Extradition to the US should be suspended while they torture people.

Fred Swanson · 12-08-2016 05:58PM

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end of the road · 12-08-2016 06:16PM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

being unable to leave ireland would be a lot prefferable to a US prison tbh.

Calahonda52 · 12-08-2016 06:19PM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Time for a new leg opener cocktail: Baileys with a Davis twist.

Crea · 12-08-2016 06:33PM

He was an admin for 4 months according to the Irish Times. He dealt with queries from users and would have been aware of the nature of the site.
I would worry about him being taken away from Ireland and his family and support structure. This can be extremely distressing for a person with Aspergers. Anxiety and depression is high risk for people with Aspergers.
Also, people with Aspergers have social issues and don't read social signals correctly. Their view on things can be very black and white. They ate also open to manipulation and exploitation and are easily lead to do wrong by those they trust. They may not see actions on the Web as having real life consequences.

Dempsey · 12-08-2016 06:48PM

Why are we waiting for 'merica to extradite him so they can use him as political tool for their foreign policy? Why isnt this person being being put on trial here in Ireland?

Also, using Aspergers and Depression to fight an extradition was a real hail mary effort

hatrickpatrick · 12-08-2016 06:53PM

jimmy blevins wrote: »

If this lad had been doing the crime through more traditional means nobody would be too bothered. Don't know what it is about the "tech community" that seems to value narcissistic and individualist traits above all else.

The man's a facilitator for serious criminal offences that harm people in the real world at the end of the day.

It's pretty simple: The internet is borderless, and nobody likes how the United States seems to believe that it has jurisdiction over the entire internet, just because people in the United States can access it.

scopper · 12-08-2016 08:32PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Well that's another question... but how high up was he? The equivalent to 'boardroom level'. Can't remember too many in terms of specifics, but was he more of a low level guy or higher up the admin chain?

Libertas begins as a kind of moderator on the forum. Maybe a bit of customer service. Not hooked into the main action.

Quite close to the collapse of SR he becomes a Global Admin, but again of the forums. He also turns up more during the transition to SR2.

I would tend to see him more as an important social moderating figure. Certainly not as part of some kind of huge conspiracy.

scopper · 12-08-2016 08:33PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

He was probably fairly high in the group possibly from his tech abilities and would be the main target in all this .
Once they nail him it's easy to discover his accomplices with plea bargains that no doubt will be offered to him .
Either way he's marked and it will be next to impossible to get off scott free let alone avoid extradition
He is classified as a cyber criminal .

Everyone else in the case has already been to prison including the corrupt agents who were investigating it. No plea bargains as he is the last to face trial.

scopper · 12-08-2016 08:36PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's pretty simple: The internet is borderless, and nobody likes how the United States seems to believe that it has jurisdiction over the entire internet, just because people in the United States can access it.

Their case was made based on being the first to discover packages emerging from Silk Road. They set up a team in Baltimore and NY and so that's where everyone was prosecuted. So I suppose to them the crime did occur there as they intercepted packages from the site on US territory.

evolving_doors · 12-08-2016 08:43PM

scopper wrote: »

Their case was made based on being the first to discover packages emerging from Silk Road. They set up a team in Baltimore and NY and so that's where everyone was prosecuted. So I suppose to them the crime did occur there as they intercepted packages from the site on US territory.

Packages didn't come from 'the site' they came from other dealers around the world through the site. Also the servers in SR weren't in the states either (well the ones they implicated the first DPR with anyway.

Looks like he's on his way from today's news anyway!

scopper · 12-08-2016 08:46PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Packages didn't come from 'the site' they came from other dealers through the site. Also the servers in SR weren't in the states either (well the ones they implicated the first DPR with anyway.

Looks like he's on his way from today's news anyway!

Sure, I mean we sort of know they didn't come from the site per se, that it was just a medium, but I guess that argument would not work on an American normal everyday folk jury. Servers were in Iceland and totally hacked by the feds (they had some silly captha leak excuse).

One differential in his trial is that DPR's trial did not allow the corrupt agents angle. Now that they are bought in jail nothing to block the argument that the case is tainted.

Fred Swanson · 12-08-2016 08:47PM

This post has been deleted.

12-08-2016 09:03PM

Off with him. As another poster has said, there is a ludicrous double standard at play here, where people think that facilitating serious criminal activity is somehow alright on the internet.

If some chap is facilitating a sale of narcotics between a seller in Nevada and a purchaser in New York, it matters not one jot whether he is an Irishman or not. He's facilitating serious crime in that jurisdiction.

Any country where he is facilitating that crime should be permitted to seek his extradition, and there to impose whatever penal sanction is appropriate.

I am amazed that people think that this behaviour is somehow less criminal if you undertake it from a computer, as opposed to over the telephone.

The superior sanctity of the Internet! Keyboard pharisees.

scopper · 12-08-2016 09:09PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Off with him. As another poster has said, there is a ludicrous double standard at play here, where people think that facilitating serious criminal activity is somehow alright on the internet.

If some chap is facilitating a sale of narcotics between a seller in Nevada and a purchaser in New York, it matters not one jot whether he is an Irishman or not. He's facilitating serious crime in that jurisdiction.

Any country where he is facilitating that crime should be permitted to seek his extradition, and there to impose whatever penal sanction is appropriate.

I am amazed that people think that this behaviour is somehow less criminal if you undertake it from a computer, as opposed to over the telephone.

The superior sanctity of the Internet! Keyboard pharisees.

I don't think anyone has made that case. The issue is whether extradition to the US is humane. That is a legal and not 'down with 'em' pitchforks issue. Given the disparity between our systems it is an important question and one afforded to us all if it happened. Also there are people in this thread who don't even realise everyone else has been tried, talking about plea deals and all sorts, and so basically clearly just commenting on a case they have no idea about.

The other aspect has to do with the trial being notoriously tainted as two corrupt federal agents we have gone down for fiddling with evidence:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/07/corrupt-agent-who-investigated-silk-road-is-suspected-of-another-700k-heist/

It's a complicated case. I personally think they have a right to ask for him to be brought to trial, of course, but I would expect him as an Irish citizen to at least have our nation look closer into whether this is correct. After all, that should come first, no?

12-08-2016 09:17PM

scopper wrote: »

The other aspect has to do with the trial being notoriously tainted as two corrupt federal agents we have gone down for fiddling with evidence:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/07/corrupt-agent-who-investigated-silk-road-is-suspected-of-another-700k-heist/

There's no evidence that an officer who stole from the website, and is now himself in prison, has concocted a story about this Irish guy working as an admin.

A deeper examination of the integrity of evidence is a matter for the Trial Court, not for the extradition process.

The issue is whether extradition to the US is humane.

Again, that's a question regarding punishment. The guy is presumed to be innocent, although there is a prima facie case against him. Punishment is a matter for the Trial Court, so long as the punishment wouldn't contravene Irish constitutional standards, etc.

I would expect him as an Irish citizen to at least have our nation look closer into whether this is correct. After all, that should come first, no?

I'm sure the A.G. has already examined that. Do you have any reason to doubt it?

Specialun · 12-08-2016 09:49PM

If im honest im a bit dissapointed on this. The dark web was not set up for illegal activities. Anonymity was huge there. Leaking information was a no no

end of the road · 12-08-2016 11:38PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Off with him. As another poster has said, there is a ludicrous double standard at play here, where people think that facilitating serious criminal activity is somehow alright on the internet.

If some chap is facilitating a sale of narcotics between a seller in Nevada and a purchaser in New York, it matters not one jot whether he is an Irishman or not. He's facilitating serious crime in that jurisdiction.

Any country where he is facilitating that crime should be permitted to seek his extradition, and there to impose whatever penal sanction is appropriate.

I am amazed that people think that this behaviour is somehow less criminal if you undertake it from a computer, as opposed to over the telephone.

The superior sanctity of the Internet! Keyboard pharisees.

not at all. if he is living here in ireland then it is none of murka's business and they need to be told they are not the worlds police. if we wanted any of their citizens for the same thing they wouldn't send them here. Any country where he is facilitating that crime should not be permitted to seek his extradition, and there to impose whatever penal sanction is appropriate, unless he has done so while living in that country and left that country. other then that, put up and shut up, none of their business. it's not about less criminal, it's about murka and their idea that they are the world police. time for ireland to stand up and tell them we won't be sending our citizens to their low quality justice system and penal system, which encourages criminality rather then reformation.

13-08-2016 01:25AM

Will you please stop saying "murka"? It is so stupid.

end of the road wrote: »

Any country where he is facilitating that crime should not be permitted to seek his extradition, and there to impose whatever penal sanction is appropriate, unless he has done so while living in that country and left that country.

Idiotic 'rationale'. The idea that you need to be physically present in a country to facilitate a criminal enterprise in that country is positively medieval. Such a notion hasn't been in favour since the Dark Ages. By that measure, any old gangster could run a white-collar criminal empire from the IFSC and never be prosecuted, so long as he didn't carry on business in Ireland. Utterly ludicrous notion, in fairness. Go on out of that.

end of the road · 13-08-2016 03:26AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Idiotic 'rationale'. The idea that you need to be physically present in a country to facilitate a criminal enterprise in that country is positively medieval. Such a notion hasn't been in favour since the Dark Ages. By that measure, any old gangster could run a white-collar criminal empire from the IFSC and never be prosecuted, so long as he didn't carry on business in Ireland. Utterly ludicrous notion, in fairness. Go on out of that.

rubbish. it is absolutely correct. he can be prosecuted in this country, as that is where he commited the crime.

syklops · 13-08-2016 03:59AM

As I said on the infosec Thread, if you want to play the Aspergers card, dont go into Court looking likes this:

evolving_doors · 13-08-2016 08:57AM

syklops wrote: »

As I said on the infosec Thread, if you want to play the Aspergers card, dont go into Court looking likes this:

Oh yeah because people with Aspergers don't wear suits... And smile... They definitely don't smile right -

13-08-2016 01:08PM

end of the road wrote: »

rubbish. it is absolutely correct. he can be prosecuted in this country, as that is where he commited the crime.

He committed an impressive panoply of crimes in a number of jurisdictions, I would assume, given the open borders of the Internet.

Davis is alleged to have been a conspirator to serious crime in the U.S, e.g. drug trafficking.

Are you genuinely unconscious of the principle that a suspect should be tried in the country where the crime is committed? If I am involved in a New York drugs operation, it shouldn't matter if I'm manning that operation from North Tipperary, the crime I'm a party to is happening in New York.

To put it another way, if someone is running a terrorist organisation from the Middle East, and directing attacks in Ireland, using the telephone and internet, are you honestly suggesting that person should be tried in the Middle East, and that his extradition shouldn't be sought by Ireland? because that's just ridiculous.

end of the road · 13-08-2016 01:53PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

He committed an impressive panoply of crimes in a number of jurisdictions, I would assume, given the open borders of the Internet.

Davis is alleged to have been a conspirator to serious crime in the U.S, e.g. drug trafficking.

Are you genuinely unconscious of the principle that a suspect should be tried in the country where the crime is committed? If I am involved in a New York drugs operation, it shouldn't matter if I'm manning that operation from North Tipperary, the crime I'm a party to is happening in New York.

To put it another way, if someone is running a terrorist organisation from the Middle East, and directing attacks in Ireland, using the telephone and internet, are you honestly suggesting that person should be tried in the Middle East, and that his extradition shouldn't be sought by Ireland? because that's just ridiculous.

no it isn't. the crime was commited elsewhere, therefore it is an elsewhere crime. in relation to this chap, he commited his supposed crime in ireland, therefore it is an irish crime even if it isn't against ireland.

13-08-2016 02:10PM

end of the road wrote: »

in relation to this chap, he commited his supposed crime in ireland

If you're facilitating a drugs transaction that is happening on American soil, it doesn't matter where in the world you are, the crime to which you are a conspirator is happening in America.

For the exact same reason, if the Kinehans are ever pinned to a drugs transaction in Ireland, the authorities here can seek to have them extradited from Spain.

I don't know why I'm bothering arguing with you, it's probably a waste of time since your modus is to just deny & ignore facts, and flatly say 'no it isn't', with absolutely no logic to what you're saying.

The US Think They Can Extradite Gary Davis

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