The US Think They Can Extradite Gary Davis

16-07-2015 11:00PM

nm wrote: »

Did you miss the quotation marks?

No, saw them.

There could be any number of reasons why is not charged here, one obvious one being no complaints were received here. Do we even know if he was investigated here? It's not the function of the State that receives the request to commence another investigation of the crimes. They simply have to follow the laws laid down by our courts and of course in the extradition treaties we've signed up to.

ohnonotgmail · 16-07-2015 11:02PM

Deleted User wrote: »

No, saw them.

There could be any number of reasons why is not charged here, one obvious one being no complaints were received here. Do we even know if he was investigated here? It's not the function of the State that receives the request to commence another investigation of the crimes. They simply have to follow the laws laid down by our courts and of course in the extradition treaties we've signed up to.

..

Mr Davis, counsel submitted, should have been charged in Ireland with corresponding offences but the DPP has not investigated and had no intention of charging Mr Davis in relation to his alleged involvement with the Silk Road website.

hatrickpatrick · 16-07-2015 11:09PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Victimless cybercrime ?
ATM hacking and drug peddling victimless?

ATM hacking is not victimless, and the countries in which the ATMs were that got hacked are entitled to jurisdiction.

FishOnABike · 16-07-2015 11:12PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Now i'm no laywer but

Gary Davis, (27), Johnstown Court, Kilpedder, Co Wicklow, is wanted for trial by the US authorities on charges of conspiracy to distribute narcotics, conspiracy to commit computer hacking and conspiracy to commit money laundering.

I'm reasonably sure some, if not all, of those charges are also crimes here

I'm sure I'm not alone in my concern regarding 'facilitating, or 'conspiracy to' charges and how strong or tenuous they can be in terms of actus reaus and mens rea to an actual criminal act. Facilitating or conspiracy can run dangerously close to thought crime and as such any related extradition request is deserving of close legal scrutiny.

It could be argued out own minister for the environment has facilitated or conspired in criminal acts by being responsible for the recently developed motorway network which has enabled criminals to quickly access and return from places which would have previously outside their area.

Any rational examination of out minister's motivation, intention and remove from the actual criminal acts would see any such claim for the nonsense it is.

Our recent troubled history should have thought us to treat requests for extradition based on conspiracy charges with extra scrutiny.

16-07-2015 11:15PM

FishOnABike wrote: »

Our recent troubled history should have thought us to treat requests for extradition based on conspiracy charges with extra scrutiny.

All extradition requests should be treated with scrutiny.

We have extradited people for conspiracy offences in the past...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-52-due-to-be-extradited-to-the-uk-on-charges-relating-to-alleged-conspiracy-to-import-drugs-with-a-street-value-of-up-to-8m-31359517.html

ohnonotgmail · 16-07-2015 11:22PM

FishOnABike wrote: »

I'm sure I'm not alone in my concern regarding 'facilitating, or 'conspiracy to' charges and how strong or tenuous they can be in terms of actus reaus and mens rea to an actual criminal act. Facilitating or conspiracy can run dangerously close to thought crime and as such any related extradition request is deserving of close legal scrutiny.

It could be argued out own minister for the environment has facilitated or conspired in criminal acts by being responsible for the recently developed motorway network which has enabled criminals to quickly access and return from places which would have previously outside their area.

Any rational examination of out minister's motivation, intention and remove from the actual criminal acts would see any such claim for the nonsense it is.

Our recent troubled history should have thought us to treat requests for extradition based on conspiracy charges with extra scrutiny.

I'm sure it will be given close scrutiny by the courts. I dont really get the conspiracy=thought crime argument. I dont think it holds up.

FishOnABike · 16-07-2015 11:36PM

Deleted User wrote: »

All extradition requests should be treated with scrutiny.

We have extradited people for conspiracy offences in the past...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-52-due-to-be-extradited-to-the-uk-on-charges-relating-to-alleged-conspiracy-to-import-drugs-with-a-street-value-of-up-to-8m-31359517.html

Agreed and from the linked article it would seem the Irish court examined the evidence supporting the extradition request in sufficient detail to satisfy itself that the subject of the extradition warrant was connected in a "clear criminal sense and not accidental sense" to those responsible for the actual criminal act.

I wouldn't think incidental involvement in something which is indirectly used for illegal activity could be considered conspiracy, a common purpose needs to be shown

Means Of Escape · 16-07-2015 11:42PM

nm wrote: »

You're right, you are no lawyer.

If the DPP had sufficient evidence of a crime committed here, they would be charging the person with that offense.

They are probably blindsided by the scale of the offences and once they review the evidence against him will leave the Americans try him rather than the authorities here .
My guess is that the charges set against him pertain to offences occurring in the USA through the website which he oversaw as a moderator .
I'll bargain that the authorities here at best had an idea what was going on but not a clue of the scale and severity of the operation in general.
I don't for one second believe that he is fighting extradition as a result of not getting a fair trail it's because they have evidence that will stick and convict him and not half assed conspiracy indictments either.
When Silk Road was uncovered and busted as expected key members were going down with it. It is a logical course of action
Given the charges it's clear their illegal activities were performed in the US and even of he was on his laptop carrying out those activities sitting in a cave on the Aran Islands attributing to these transactions he would automatically be dragged into the loop .
You will find that the state will see it in their best interest to extradite the guy in order to assist the US government in tackling cybercrime .

16-07-2015 11:55PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

You will find that the state will see it in their best interest to extradite the guy in order to assist the US government in tackling cybercrime .

The courts may not, and what's in our best interest will not have any bearing on the decision. The courts have denied extradition requests in the past, from Britain, the USA and other countries. If he is extradited, it won't be because of any pressure on the Judge.

FishOnABike · 17-07-2015 12:05AM

Blindsiding, guessing, bargaining, seeing it in their best interest should have no part in an extradition process.

If the requesting state can't clearly present evidence that will stick in support of its request then the request should be refused. If the requesting state meets all the Irish legal requirements to satisfy an Irish court then it should be granted.

Means Of Escape · 17-07-2015 12:07AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The courts may not, and what's in our best interest will not have any bearing on the decision. The courts have denied extradition requests in the past, from Britain, the USA and other countries. If he is extradited, it won't be because of any pressure on the Judge.

George Gibney springs to mind

Means Of Escape · 17-07-2015 12:10AM

FishOnABike wrote: »

Blindsiding, guessing, bargaining, seeing it in their best interest should have no part in an extradition process.

If the requesting state can't clearly present evidence that will stick in support of its request then the request should be refused. If the requesting state meets all the Irish legal requirements to satisfy an Irish court then it should be granted.

They have presented evidence and evidence that will stick as it's a federal crime and is thoroughly investigated before extradition requests are presented .

FishOnABike · 17-07-2015 12:49AM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

They have presented evidence and evidence that will stick as it's a federal crime and is thoroughly investigated before extradition requests are presented .

Then the extradition request will be decided on the strength of the evidence they have presented. The evidence presented does not always support the request made, extradition requests have been turned down in the past and only time will tell in this particular case - it's by no means a foregone conclusion.

TallGlass · 17-07-2015 01:07AM

I know the site is extremely dodgy, just as much as a mod on here or even admins on here I don't believe they get a cut of the profits. Why target this guy if he didn't get any money? If that is the case can we start seeing mods on here sued for bans etc..

I would be pissed if someone stole my card details but I wouldn't blame him or the admin of the site. Why? Because regardless of the site these pricks are going to do whatever they are doing anyway. Convicting this guy or guys is not going to stop what there members where doing anyway.

end of the road · 17-07-2015 01:23AM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

No, I think they probably made a judgement call why charge him here if they want to charge him over there.

they don't even get that call. if a crime has been commited and there is enough evidence they have a duty to charge him and bring him before the courts regardless of whether another country wishes to charge him

end of the road · 17-07-2015 01:28AM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

They have presented evidence and evidence that will stick as it's a federal crime and is thoroughly investigated before extradition requests are presented .

that means nothing though. all crimes are investigated to the full extent possible.

Means Of Escape · 25-07-2015 06:38PM

end of the road wrote: »

that means nothing though. all crimes are investigated to the full extent possible.

And unless there is sufficient evidence to proceed with a prosecution it won't be entertained
in this case there is hence the extradition request which will allow the prosecution .
I guarantee the Irish authorities would prosecute based on the American evidence had they themselves discovered the activities .

nxbyveromdwjpg · 18-08-2015 08:17AM

Don't know what happened to the case in the OP but this is somewhat relevant:

"Irish high court refuses to extradite suspect to the US as prison conditions there amount to torture."

nelly17 · 12-08-2016 01:19PM

Donovan Tall Powder wrote: »

Don't know what happened to the case in the OP but this is somewhat relevant:

"Irish high court refuses to extradite suspect to the US as prison conditions there amount to torture."

Is it though - the extradition has been granted to it would seem that ship has sailed

Arbitrary · 12-08-2016 01:21PM

Lachlan Mango Sweeper wrote: »

Hate to be Gary today.

You must a great person to ask for directions!

The High Court has ordered the extradition to the United States of a Wicklow man alleged to have been an administrator of the Silk Road website that dealt with illegal drugs and hacking software.

Source:

He can still appeal.

Means Of Escape · 12-08-2016 01:59PM

Arbitrary wrote: »

You must a great person to ask for directions!

Source:

He can still appeal.

It's possible that the Supreme Court will overturn the granting of extradition but his team would need more than him having Aspergers as a defence for it to happen .
The US government are relentless pursuing tax evaders ,mail thieves and drug traffickers and more than often get their target .

end of the road · 12-08-2016 02:06PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

The US government are relentless pursuing tax evaders ,mail thieves and drug traffickers and more than often get their target .

which is why we need to buck that trend. time for murka to be told they are not the world police.

ohnonotgmail · 12-08-2016 02:09PM

end of the road wrote: »

which is why we need to buck that trend. time for murka to be told they are not the world police.

so you think they should ignore crimes that take place in their jurisdiction?

BattleCorp · 12-08-2016 02:14PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so you think they should ignore crimes that take place in their jurisdiction?

The internet is worldwide so what's their jurisdiction?

Billy86 · 12-08-2016 02:20PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

The internet is worldwide so what's their jurisdiction?

I'm assuming it technically falls under US since the Silk Road was likely hosted on US servers or whatever the technical jibber jabber is. The main guy that ran it was in San Fransisco, if I recall.

ohnonotgmail · 12-08-2016 02:24PM

Billy86 wrote: »

I'm assuming it technically falls under US since the Silk Road was likely hosted on US servers or whatever the technical jibber jabber is. The main guy that ran it was in San Fransisco, if I recall.

plus they were using it to send drugs and weapons to and/or from US addresses.

BattleCorp · 12-08-2016 02:30PM

Billy86 wrote: »

I'm assuming it technically falls under US since the Silk Road was likely hosted on US servers or whatever the technical jibber jabber is. The main guy that ran it was in San Fransisco, if I recall.

If a company breaks the law, are all employees worldwide held liable?

ohnonotgmail · 12-08-2016 02:44PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

If a company breaks the law, are all employees worldwide held liable?

if company you work for is breaking the law and you knowingly help them do that are you liable?

Billy86 · 12-08-2016 02:48PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

If a company breaks the law, are all employees worldwide held liable?

Well that's another question... but how high up was he? The equivalent to 'boardroom level'. Can't remember too many in terms of specifics, but was he more of a low level guy or higher up the admin chain?

Don't get me wrong, I would far prefer the guy in Ireland - be it in prison or not. The US prison system is just a factory and training ground for a) becoming a better prisoner, and/or b) developing considerable mental health problems. But at the same time, the US do seem to have decent grounds for extradition if I have the details right.

On the other hand, I would be interested to know how many US citizens they have extradited to foreign countries in similar circumstances. They do have 100-odd extradition treaties apparently, but the skeptic in me assumes when it comes time for the US to 'give back' with their own citizens, the rules change somewhat. Could be completely wrong on that though, just a hunch.

Billy86 · 12-08-2016 02:50PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

plus they were using it to send drugs and weapons to and/or from US addresses.

Not sure of how the legalese works out here, but while it is true, they did so in many countries throughout the world. So what if as well as the US, another half dozen countries wanted him extradited to THEIR country for prosecution... how do you decide who 'gets to have' him?

The US Think They Can Extradite Gary Davis

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