Would any of ye have liked to live in a communist country?

Wigglepuppy · 12-08-2016 12:28AM

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

I'll be the first to admit I haven't educated myself a lot of the whole communist thing but is'nt it something that is meant to work "well" on paper but in actual fact it turns out to be holding people down.... or am I nuts?

You are nuts! :eek:

Nah that is how it could be described

in some cases anyway. In other cases it was not intended for the greater good.

12-08-2016 12:28AM

511 wrote: »

China was never communist.

Had most of the same characteristics as communism. Communism spread and each country it spread to, the national leadership changed it to suit their culture.

So... then I guess if we're strictly only talking about communism... you can only talk about members of the former Soviet Union.

Gen.Zhukov · 12-08-2016 12:29AM

Communism and democracy are both bollocks.

Communism......We're all going to live the same way. Waring the same type of clothes, eating the same type of food, living the same way, right....
i.e, you are going to do the above while we party like fcuk.

Democracy......You will democratically vote us into power and then we will do pretty much what we like, because you voted us in and we're going to party like fcuk.

Kat1170 · 12-08-2016 12:29AM

Wouldn't be too bad if you happened to be Joe Stalin I suppose

12-08-2016 12:32AM

Kat1170 wrote: »

Wouldn't be too bad if you happened to be Joe Stalin I suppose

Or the sole communist local leader of a small town or village in the middle of nowhere. Who's going to oppose you?

The_Mac · 12-08-2016 12:36AM

Idiots who support full communism always retort with "it's never been properly implemented". Want to know why? Because it can't be properly implemented you gombeen.

Billy86 · 12-08-2016 12:47AM

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

Bloody hell no. Only this evening actually, I was watching Reeling In The Years (again) and it was 1980 - one of the items featured was the Solidarność (Solidarity) organisation in Poland, then behind the Iron Curtain, a trade union movement in opposition to the government. Now if a trade union movement opposes a communist regime, then something is seriously up.

A system where absolutely everyone is in the exact same circumstances can only be enforced harshly, with no possibility of any kind of individual freedom.

Now I wouldn't agree either with a society offering virtually no state supports and everyone, no matter what circumstances, having to fend for themselves, but there is a happy medium.

Not only that but a major flaw of communism is hiding in your second paragraph (and in the first Reagan joke posted above, re waiting on cars for 10 years)... If everyone basically makes the same money, has the same stuff, etc, then where is the motivation? Beyond wooing women with my impressive job title, why should I bother to strive to be the best that I can be when the end result is only going to be the same? And beyond that again, if nobody is striving for their full potential then how is society meant to progress (or even maintain its position) in almost all aspects of life, two very notable ones being finance and technology? It generates a complete lack of competition, which in turn leads to a lack of innovation or motivation, whereas with those two... Someone else would catch wind and offer you a car guaranteed in a matter of days.

Wigglepuppy · 12-08-2016 12:50AM

Billy86 wrote: »

Not only that but a major flaw of communism is hiding in your second paragraph (and in the first Reagan joke posted above, re waiting on cars for 10 years)... If everyone basically makes the same money, has the same stuff, etc, then where is the motivation? Beyond wooing women with my impressive job title, why should I bother to strive to be the best that I can be when the end result is only going to be the same? And beyond that again, if nobody is striving for their full potential then how is society meant to progress (or even maintain its position) in almost all aspects of life, two very notable ones being finance and technology? It generates a complete lack of competition, which in turn leads to a lack of innovation or motivation, whereas with those two... Someone else would catch wind and offer you a car guaranteed in a matter of days.

Absolutely. And are there really gonna be government jobs for absolutely everyone from cradle to grave? People have ended up starving to death under such regimes.

PARlance · 12-08-2016 12:52AM

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

I think this is utter tosh. My reading of 20th century history is relatively rudimentary, but I remember reading that there were over 80 attempts throughout the world to impose a communist regime during that time.

The best you could hope for if you were a poor misfortunate who lived in one of those countries was suspicion and stagnation. The worst was state imposed death.

It didn't work out. Marxism is as strange an idea as homeopathy and astrology. It appeals without having any grounding in science or logic. And its proponents are blinded by a belief that borders on the puritan.

Was this rudimentary reading inspired by the need to educate that brother of yours?
I imagine his wardrobe contained a Guevara t-shirt or two, to accompany the bootleg jeans, a staple among many of his ilk?

foggy_lad · 12-08-2016 01:10AM

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Even today you can spot the former East German in the wider German society. It's especially true if they have made some money. A propensity towards vulgar looking Swiss watches set with diamonds and gold, low end Italian supercars, a second home in the French riviera.

A lot like the Irish during the noughties bertie boom years:eek:

12-08-2016 01:14AM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Nah..... I like to own stuff.

It's capitalism that denies people ownership rights. Most people don't own the land they till, the mines they dig, the forests they clear, the factories they assemble in, etc. Ownership is only for people with capital.

Arghus · 12-08-2016 01:14AM

I've heard the Chinese are a great bunch of lads.

12-08-2016 01:21AM

seamus wrote: »

Communism was always doomed to failure because it's an ideology that disregards natural human traits and biases.

When everyone understands and wants communism, it will work. Great in small groups of 20 people, but as a system of government, a complete disaster.

Capitalist socialism is far superior because it takes account of both the human requirement to resource hoard/guard while also exploiting the individual sense of community and caring.

I'd suggest you do some basic readings about communism before you try to debate it. There is no state and no market in communism.

Communism can only work on a large scale, it is an international workers movement. A reversion to a national boundary is a reversion of the proletarian movement as a whole.

Wigglepuppy · 12-08-2016 01:28AM

Deleted User wrote: »

It's capitalism that denies people ownership rights. Most people don't own the land they till, the mines they dig, the forests they clear, the factories they assemble in, etc. Ownership is only for people with capital.

Capitalism allows people to set up their own businesses though.

12-08-2016 02:10AM

The correct answer to what way things should be run economically is slightly right of centre.

12-08-2016 03:23AM

Billy86 wrote: »

Not only that but a major flaw of communism is hiding in your second paragraph (and in the first Reagan joke posted above, re waiting on cars for 10 years)... If everyone basically makes the same money, has the same stuff, etc, then where is the motivation? Beyond wooing women with my impressive job title, why should I bother to strive to be the best that I can be when the end result is only going to be the same?

Why do people go to work now? Why did we ever work? Why did we start using tools to change and improve our environment instead of just sitting around eating bugs and grass? People didn't start to labour because they were getting a salary - labour is what makes us human. We work together collaboratively, and creatively, to meet our needs and to change the world around us. That is perverted under capitalism, you're forced to sell your labour to someone else to survive, and you lose control over one of the things that fundamentally makes you human.

And beyond that again, if nobody is striving for their full potential then how is society meant to progress (or even maintain its position) in almost all aspects of life, two very notable ones being finance and technology? It generates a complete lack of competition, which in turn leads to a lack of innovation or motivation, whereas with those two... Someone else would catch wind and offer you a car guaranteed in a matter of days.

http://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism You might enjoy this article, written by Albert Einstein.

Incentives exist past monetary gain. We, as a society, must pass the obsession with materialistic incentives which is provided by capitalist indoctrination throughout our entire young, scholastic lives. In a communist society, the general welfare of the state (which is comprised of the proletariat) is of top priority and lived well. People do not struggle to survive and succeed their birth-given socio-economic status so much. Rather, the work is distributed to the strong, able, and appropriate, and the incentive to discover and invent is to leave a mark on mankind as extreme wealth is not the option for this mark. It persuades the individual to seek scholastic advancement and make scientific discoveries by removing the Capitalist-added incentive to simply gain money and buy extravagant things and act ostentatiously to gain fame/ recognition.

The idea is to pass the predatory phase of society and establish a more peaceful, academically-oriented society that champions general welfare and scientific/mathematic advancement as opposed to championing income inequality.

pragmatic1 · 12-08-2016 06:22AM

No. I don't like the authoritarian anti-individual aspects.

12-08-2016 06:59AM

Wiseman Drinkwater wrote: »

Would any of ye have liked to live in a communist country?

I thought according to Denis O'Brien back in 2003 Ireland was
"fast turning into a communist state"? so surely 13 years later we've all lived in a communist state?

Dr Turk Turkelton · 12-08-2016 07:00AM

Why in all this talk of communism is everyone referring to the demoralising grey sh1thole that is Eastern Europe?
If I was going to communist it would be lying on a Caribbean beach sipping a mojito and puffing on a big cigar ala Cuba.

WesternZulu · 12-08-2016 07:30AM

I've been to Cuba, the only ones sipping mojitos and puffing big cigars on the beach are the tourists.

andekwarhola · 12-08-2016 07:43AM

Hercule Poirot wrote: »

The countries that we call Communist weren't actually practicing the true Communist ideology, rather the Communist ideology was used a tool to enforce a tyrannical regime - if you were offering me the chance to live in a true Marxist, Communist country then yes I would give it a go but Lenin, Mao and Stalin can go f**k themselves

There's a reason why the pipe-dream of socialist or communist experiments invariably end up in totalitarianism.

A significant amount of the populace cannot be trusted to live in a society to willingly abjure their own interests for the greater good.

That's why, as imperfect as it is, social democracy tends to work best as it avoid both extremes: pandering to the extremities of the self-interested while providing a base level (of varying degrees) of 'socialist' norms for the rest.

As said, there's a reason why societies based on political extremity (at either end of the spectrum) always have to be enforced.

dan1895 · 12-08-2016 08:26AM

WesternZulu wrote: »

I've been to Cuba, the only ones sipping mojitos and puffing big cigars on the beach are the tourists.

Plenty of locals puffing on cigars when I was there. Cuba is a great country in so many ways but flawed in some nany others. It was great for a three week visit but not sure about living there.

Wigglepuppy · 12-08-2016 08:41AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I thought according to Denis O'Brien back in 2003 Ireland was
"fast turning into a communist state"? so surely 13 years later we've all lived in a communist state?

Lol "fast" becoming a communist state. Yeah there was a revolution here and people were turfed out of their homes.
Even very successful businessmen say stuff so stupid it looks like a journal.ie comment I suppose.

Hercule Poirot · 12-08-2016 08:41AM

andekwarhola wrote: »

There's a reason why the pipe-dream of socialist or communist experiments invariably end up in totalitarianism.

A significant amount of the populace cannot be trusted to live in a society to willingly abjure their own interests for the greater good.

That's why, as imperfect as it is, social democracy tends to work best as it avoid both extremes: pandering to the extremities of the self-interested while providing a base level (of varying degrees) of 'socialist' norms for the rest.

As said, there's a reason why societies based on political extremity (at either end of the spectrum) always have to be enforced.

Why is it that we cannot be trusted to partake in a society in which we give the same and get the same? Could it be because we've been raised through a society which actively encourages people to screw each other over to get to top? A society which puts so much value on meaningless things, and yet we must have those things anyway?

Rather than write something off because man is (insert cliche regarding greed here)............maybe ask yourself why man is the way he is?

josip · 12-08-2016 08:47AM

mzungu wrote: »

If it was life or death, then at a BIG push, Tito's Yugoslavia. Although it's an utterly crap choice no matter where you go, some are just slightly better than the others.

I certainly wouldn't have chosen to live in any of them though.

I'm bringing my son to see kuća cveća this afternoon after he finishes school

seamus · 12-08-2016 08:53AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd suggest you do some basic readings about communism before you try to debate it. There is no state and no market in communism.

Which is exactly why it fails.

Humans when placed in a community innately form "states" and "markets". It's a core social instinct that's evolved, and the reason why as a species we're so successful.
A system of government which attempts to remove these cannot succeed since they will continue to exist regardless of what the government says about it.

andekwarhola · 12-08-2016 08:57AM

Hercule Poirot wrote: »

Why is it that we cannot be trusted to partake in a society in which we give the same and get the same? Could it be because we've been raised through a society which actively encourages people to screw each other over to get to top? A society which puts so much value on meaningless things, and yet we must have those things anyway

The problem with this ideological reasoning (of any hue) is that you end up regarding people as simple, inert units on which to project your Utopian fantasies. Hence Marxists banging on about false consciousness.

When you're already predisposed to the idea that people that fail to fit into your political system are 'temporarily unable to think correctly', you're already on the road to 'correction'. As we have seen many times.

Whether or not I wish it were different (to an extent, I do), social democracy has proved to be pretty much the only political show in town for (imperfectly) balancing the best and worst of human nature and avoiding totalitarianism.

Jawgap · 12-08-2016 09:01AM

dan1895 wrote: »

Plenty of locals puffing on cigars when I was there. Cuba is a great country in so many ways but flawed in some nany others. It was great for a three week visit but not sure about living there.

Likewise - been there, Havana and Camagüey were grand.....outside there in ruralities a different world altogether!

philstar · 12-08-2016 09:23AM

Billy86 wrote: »

Communist? No.

A higher degree of socialism in a social democracy? You betcha!

Norway is the place for you then

beach_walker · 12-08-2016 09:41AM

From my reading of history and having talked with people who lived in Communist countries, nah you're alright.

You've a higher standard of living in Ireland than was ever achieved in any of many, many attempts to bring about the the workers paradise. Far less of a chance of being killed by the State to boot. What's not to love?!

Would any of ye have liked to live in a communist country?

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