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Is this legal ?

  • 07-08-2016 09:25PM
    #1
    Simon2015
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 702 ✭✭✭


    I received a letter from a consultant doctor which my GP referred me to saying that if I miss the appointment or don't cancel it within 48 hours they can bill me the consultation fee of 220 Euro for not turning up.

    Just wondering if this is legal can they really send me a bill for missing an appointment ?

    I have never even met this Doctor or set foot in her clinic.

    Legally I don't see how they could come after me for the money if I did miss the appointment.


«1345

Comments

  • #2
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #3
    Simon2015
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 702 ✭✭✭Simon2015


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    How were you made aware of this no show condition?

    It was in the letter I got for the appointment.


  • #4
    billy few mates
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    I would imagine by accepting an appointment with her you will be entering into a contract with her, one of the terms and conditions of that contract will likely be a 'no show' fee. Obviously her time is very valuable and if you decide not to show up you've wasted an appointment slot that could have been used by someone else. I could easily see her coming after you for any loss of income she would incur if you fail to show up...


  • #5
    billy few mates
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    If you don't fancy this condition you can always cancel the appointment so long as you do it more than 48hrs beforehand...


  • #6
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #7
    pixbyjohn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭pixbyjohn


    Simon2015 wrote: »
    It was in the letter I got for the appointment.
    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    But he was made aware in the letter he received :rolleyes:


  • #8
    jsd1004
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 824 ✭✭✭jsd1004


    billy few mates wrote: »
    I would imagine by accepting an appointment with her you will be entering into a contract with her, one of the terms and conditions of that contract will likely be a 'no show' fee. Obviously her time is very valuable and if you decide not to show up you've wasted an appointment slot that could have been used by someone else. I could easily see her coming after you for any loss of income she would incur if you fail to show up...

    Similar to not showing up for a meal booking. Yeah they could chase you..solicitors would love if everyone did.


  • #9
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #10
    IRAC War
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭IRAC War


    I believe this would fall foul of the unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations which you can find with a quick google, so to answer your question (sort of), no not enforceable.


  • #11
    IRAC War
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭IRAC War


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    But can she prove he received it? That is a hurdle for the plaintiff to get over.

    The postal rule would likely apply.


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  • #12
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #13
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    IRAC War wrote: »
    I believe this would fall foul of the unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations which you can find with a quick google, so to answer your question (sort of), no not enforceable.

    Please do not give legal advice, This is not allowed by forum charter.


  • #14
    _Brian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,935 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    This is a common enough clause, number of consultants I've been with charge that no show fee.


  • #15
    Simon2015
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 702 ✭✭✭Simon2015


    _Brian wrote: »
    This is a common enough clause, number of consultants I've been with charge that no show fee.

    It may be common but I don't see how it can be legally enforced.


  • #16
    IRAC War
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭IRAC War


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    Which can be easily rebutted.

    Not rebutted, disclaimed. There is a very important distinction. It is almost impossible to rebutt the postal rule when it's properly applied. I'm not asserting it is or is not in this situation.


  • #17
    IRAC War
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭IRAC War


    Pat Mustard wrote: »
    Please do not give legal advice, This is not allowed by forum charter.

    My apologies, I'm still trying to get a handle on this when legal advice isn't legal advice thing.

    While I don't wish to sound flippant I'm getting that unsubstantiated opinion is okay but relatively useless, whereas anything cited would potentially be an issue? Is the specific issue in offering my opinion? Had I said:

    "You may find something useful in the unfair terms in consumer contracts regs" would that have been okay or is the mere inclusion of any statute or case law legal advice?

    Thanks for the steer, I'm aware of the potential difficulty a site such as this would have, or indeed I myself may incur, buy offering (generally bad) legal advice.


  • #18
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    I would not think it is an unfair contract term. The booking can be cancelled up to 48 hours in advance with no fee. If it is cancelled less than 48 hours ahead or there is no show it is highly likely that the consultant cannot use that time slot for another patient and will not earn any fee at all. It would be more unfair if a patient could cause a professional to allocate time for them and then simply fail to show without warning. ANother patient could have availed of the time slot had there been adequate notice. The other alternative would be for consultants to overbook on the basis that there will always be no-shows. this means nobody can rely on being seen at the time of their appointment, causing all kinds of problems with travel arrangements and so on.
    As for enforcement, presumably the o/p will have to engage with the consultant eventually. In that case the missing fee will be added to the bill. The o/ps GP will be notified of the no-show and told there is an outstanding bill. IN that case the GP can't refer the o/p to any other consultant.


  • #19
    IRAC War
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭IRAC War


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    I would not think it is an unfair contract term. The booking can be cancelled up to 48 hours in advance with no fee. If it is cancelled less than 48 hours ahead or there is no show it is highly likely that the consultant cannot use that time slot for another patient and will not earn any fee at all. It would be more unfair if a patient could cause a professional to allocate time for them and then simply fail to show without warning. ANother patient could have availed of the time slot had there been adequate notice. The other alternative would be for consultants to overbook on the basis that there will always be no-shows. this means nobody can rely on being seen at the time of their appointment, causing all kinds of problems with travel arrangements and so on.
    As for enforcement, presumably the o/p will have to engage with the consultant eventually. In that case the missing fee will be added to the bill. The o/ps GP will be notified of the no-show and told there is an outstanding bill. IN that case the GP can't refer the o/p to any other consultant.

    I'm not sure if I'm allowed to point to specifics in the legislation but having lurked here for some time I know you to be a resourceful fellow - 5 will get you 10 there is no reciprocal offer of compensation, this could be problematic given a specific regulation, hypothetically speaking.


  • #20
    IRAC War
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭IRAC War


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    I would not think it is an unfair contract term. The booking can be cancelled up to 48 hours in advance with no fee. If it is cancelled less than 48 hours ahead or there is no show it is highly likely that the consultant cannot use that time slot for another patient and will not earn any fee at all. It would be more unfair if a patient could cause a professional to allocate time for them and then simply fail to show without warning. ANother patient could have availed of the time slot had there been adequate notice. The other alternative would be for consultants to overbook on the basis that there will always be no-shows. this means nobody can rely on being seen at the time of their appointment, causing all kinds of problems with travel arrangements and so on.
    As for enforcement, presumably the o/p will have to engage with the consultant eventually. In that case the missing fee will be added to the bill. The o/ps GP will be notified of the no-show and told there is an outstanding bill. IN that case the GP can't refer the o/p to any other consultant.

    I'm not sure if I'm allowed to point to specifics in the legislation but having lurked here for some time I know you to be a resourceful fellow - 5 will get you 10 there is no reciprocal offer of compensation, this could be problematic given a specific regulation, hypothetically speaking.

    By enforceable I mean to say that there is nothing illegal about putting such a term in a contract and therefore it does not make the control illegal per se, such as if this was a contract for a prostitute or some such, however the offending provision in the contract would be unenforceable - again hypothetically speaking.

    Apologies, some of my terminology is imprecise - something I am hoping to remedy here!


  • #21
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Simon2015 wrote: »
    It may be common but I don't see how it can be legally enforced.

    Not sure it can be enforced and if it could be it would be prohibitively expensive. However if you want to see that consultant again you will be asked to pay it before getting an appointment.


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  • #22
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    The o/ps GP will be notified of the no-show and told there is an outstanding bill. IN that case the GP can't refer the o/p to any other consultant.

    Are you serious? Someone who needs medical treatment could be prevented from receiving it because of a disputed bill from a consultant? I very much doubt it.


  • #23
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    IRAC War wrote: »
    My apologies, I'm still trying to get a handle on this when legal advice isn't legal advice thing.

    While I don't wish to sound flippant I'm getting that unsubstantiated opinion is okay but relatively useless, whereas anything cited would potentially be an issue? Is the specific issue in offering my opinion? Had I said:

    "You may find something useful in the unfair terms in consumer contracts regs" would that have been okay or is the mere inclusion of any statute or case law legal advice?

    Thanks for the steer, I'm aware of the potential difficulty a site such as this would have, or indeed I myself may incur, buy offering (generally bad) legal advice.

    It's better when law is cited.

    There is a lot more scope for discussion in hypothetical scenarios.

    This is not a hypothetical scenario, so we can't offer opinions on liability.

    It is generally allowed to point to regulations. To say that regulations have a certain effect is generally allowed.

    To say that regulations apply in a particular way in relation to the OP's real-life situation and to offer an opinion on whether he would become liable to pay money is not allowed.

    We have gone a bit off topic and this thread isn't really the place to discuss this but I hope that is of some assistance.


  • #24
    IRAC War
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭IRAC War


    My apologies I seem to be making a right hames of posting here. I have it now on the legal advice and won't pull this off topic anymore sorry op!

    Thank you for the correction Pat.


  • #25
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,787 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Are you serious? Someone who needs medical treatment could be prevented from receiving it because of a disputed bill from a consultant? I very much doubt it.

    There is no dispute about the bill. If the o/p wants he can refuse to accept those terms now before being liable to pay anything. If the o/p needs medical treatment he should turn up for his appointments. There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you deal with a professional, another professional can't take up the matter until the first one is paid. The GP would be very embarrassed if a consultant is left unpaid.


  • #26
    Simon2015
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 702 ✭✭✭Simon2015


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    The GP would be very embarrassed if a consultant is left unpaid.


    I don't think my GP would be embarrassed because it happens all the time.

    There is even a notice up in my surgery that says you must pay before hand if you want to see the Doctor.


  • #27
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    If you deal with a professional, another professional can't take up the matter until the first one is paid. The GP would be very embarrassed if a consultant is left unpaid.

    What do you mean "can't"? Another professional can do whatever he likes. He might choose not to, but that's a different matter. There's no law preventing a medical consultant treating me just because another consultant claims I owe him money.

    And what has the GP's embarrassment to do with it? The OP's query was whether the charge for patient no-shows is legally enforceable.


  • #28
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I would say if that consultant's office had a policy of ringing to confirm say a week in advance and mentioning the cancellation penalty in that phone call, it would massively strengthen their ability to enforce it.

    In real terms, the time and finances required to chase such a €220 bill are onerous.

    More than likely they state that policy in order to "encourage" people to cancel their appointments, as the number of no-shows they get on first-time referrals is huge. If someone rang up to reschedule, they'd probably waive the cancellation fee and then blacklist them if they no-show again.


  • #29
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,570 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    seamus wrote: »
    More than likely they state that policy in order to "encourage" people to cancel their appointments, as the number of no-shows they get on first-time referrals is huge. If someone rang up to reschedule, they'd probably waive the cancellation fee and then blacklist them if they no-show again.

    That's basically it. GF works as admin an a hospital outpatient department, some days only 1 or 2 people will come in out of 20 for scheduled appointments, wastes a huge amount of staff and medical supplies which go off when not in deep freeze, not to mention that some of the children can literally die if they hurt themselves after missing an appointment. Even a phone call in the morning would reduce a huge amount of waste. They tried implementing a 'stick' kind of like the above but the patient advocacy group kicked up a stink so they just have to put up with it.


  • #30
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    As someone who works in the health field, I can offer some clarification to the op's question:

    Yes the consultant can charge you for a missed appointment. When you make an appointment with a health care professional, in person, by phone or by email, you enter a contract for a service and the service provider can charge you for failure to attend.

    http://www.consumerhelp.ie/services-contracts.

    (See "cancelling a service" paragraph")

    In reality the health care provider will not follow you for that charge, they will however refuse to make you another appointment. Typically the referral is sent back to the GP with a note informing him/her that you did not attend. If the patient wants another appointment to be made, the charge will have to be paid before another appointment is made so effectively the charge is only paid if you want another appointment. In most cases, because of long waiting lists and the annoyance this causes to the consultant, no new appointment will be issued and the patient has to go somewhere else. No patient-Doctor relationship exists as the patient reneged on the service/contract.

    So in essence, the charge is a method of telling you to go waste someone else's time.


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  • #31
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    4ensic15 wrote: »
    The o/ps GP will be notified of the no-show and told there is an outstanding bill. IN that case the GP can't refer the o/p to any other consultant.

    Are you serious? Someone who needs medical treatment could be prevented from receiving it because of a disputed bill from a consultant? I very much doubt it.

    You would be wrong. The patient is not prevented from receiving treatment, however they may not receive it from the consultant who they failed to attend a previous appointment. No patient/Doctor relationship exists as the person did not attend so the consultant can refuse to accept the referral. The patient may then have to be referred to someone else, usually with a stern warning from their GP that failure to attend/short notice cancellation prevents the appointment being offered to someone else who may need it.


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